Reptile & Amphibian Forums

in the hybrid forum whenever i ask about corn/rat crosses they always tell me that i should have a pair of each to get the males all hot and bothered, do you really need that because a corn snake is the same thing as a red rat.

so what about the kisatchie would i need pairs for that because its said to be a different species?

what would i get if i bred a luecistic rat to a blizzard corn? would it be all white?
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

>>so what about the kisatchie would i need pairs for that because its said to be a different species?

No - probably not, but why in the heck would you ruin a Kistachie that way?

>>what would i get if i bred a luecistic rat to a blizzard corn? would it be all white?

Phenotypic NORMAL hybrid het for the three individual traits involved 9Leucistic, Charcoal, and amel.

KJ

You would have a mutt.
It would be neither a cornsnake or a ratsnake.

You would ruin 2 perfectly good species....

Actually, it WOULD be a ratsnake, since corns ARE indeed ratsnakes. But, yes, it would be a mutt. And most likely relatively worthless. Duffy

so i would have to breed the babies back to a blizz or lucy to get an all white snake
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

...you do need a pair of both. The only exceptions would possibly be Emoryi rats and Kisatchies, as they're closely related enough that they might be recognized as mates. I have vague recollections of a friend trying to cross a corn and and a black rat, and not having much luck, as he didn't have anything to get the other gender snake interested in the unfamiliar species.

There are a large number of people on this forum who are hostile to hybridizing... ergo, you may want to stick to asking questions about hybrids over in the hybrid forum.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

i usually do, i just wanted a second opion, but i forgot about the ones who dont agree with hibridizing
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Why not get either a male blizzard corn...OR a PAIR of leusistic rats and make white PUREBREDS? What an idea!

NOTE: this is NOT just for the person under whose post I am replying...I mean no personal offence to anyone!!!

You know, I've been doing this for a while, so my views on hybridization are well-documented here and elsewhere. I have no problem with hybrids per se, but I have a real problem with the irresponsible way that most hybrid owners throw terms like "cornsnake" around with utter disregard for what others rely upon when they hear those terms.

But this guy just asked a question about his own snakes. That's all he did. As far as I know, he's just looking to breed some snakes to get an effect in his offspring that he cannot find anywhere else, and he thought he would turn to us for some answers on how the genetics work.

He doesn't seem to want or need our approval, but too often we feel the need to hammer such a person anyway. Well, it doesn't seem to do anything but cause people not to want to ask questions of us about hybridizing.

So, let me ask you all, how do you propose to teach people the hazzards of hybridizing corns, if they are unwilling to ever come here to hear you? Is the goal to keep hybrid talk off this forum, or to help people understand why the purity of the species is important to many corn enthusiasts?
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

In the past I have owned cal kings, desert kings, grey banded kings, garters and ball pythons.

I currently own cornsnakes and rosy boas. The cornsnake is my favorite species BY FAR. I know that breeders, responsible breeders are passionate about their chosen species. Responsible breeders strive to better the species of whatever they are working with. New cornsnake morphs pop up almost yearly. I can remember when a snow or a ghost was rare and sought after. But I digress...
The way I see it, responsible breeders want to better the species I love. Hybridizers just want to muddy it and tear it down. Color morphs arent good enough for them, they think they can create something "better". They want to own something that no one else has...if thats the case they should buy an original piece of art and stop messing with living creatures! How many are prepared to keep every muddy little f1 frankensnake they create? Yes, they are free to ask whatever they want to, but dont they wonder why their forum is so quiet?

"How many are prepared to keep every muddy little f1 frankensnake they create?"

I share 100% the frustration with irresponsible hybrid owners that spawned the above rhetorical question. On the issue of the owners, and their not clearly thinking through what they are going to produce when they fit "tab A" into "slot B" in their living genetic erector sets, you and I are in complete agreement, I suspect.

However, you didn't answer my question...

Since you and I both KNOW that hybrid creation is going to continue for eons, and we both KNOW that some would be hybrid breeders might be dissuaded from doing so, if they only understood all of the ramifications of such breedings...Since we both KNOW those things...How should we handle those who simply come here looking for answers?

Should we treat them as lepers not even worthy of our online presence (and thereby ensure that they never hear [or even care about] our side of the issue), or should we calmly and carefully help explain to them the damage that can be done by irresponsible breedings among species?

That's my only point.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I truly dont know how to answer the questions of would-be hybriders. I sure dont want to encourage them! I am not even sure they care about the ramifications of irresponsible breeding, they see an f4 or f5 snake and say "Can I do that too?". They dont see the 40 or 50 mud ugly snakes it took to get there. I dont think they care about the integrity of any species. Reason doesnt seem to apply here. This exact same question that started this thread was asked in the hybrid forum. I didnt bother to read it but apparently he didnt get the answer he wanted over there so he came here.If 50 people here say that breeding hybrids is a lousey idea, maybe it would sink in. Especially if you go to the hybrid forum and its so quiet all you hear are your own echoes.

Hybridizers just want to muddy it and tear it down. Color morphs arent good enough for them, they think they can create something "better". They want to own something that no one else has...

The vast majority of would-be hybrid breeders seem to be the type where they only have a small number of snakes, few or none of the same species. They want to breed their snakes and produce hatchlings, but don't wanna spend the money on any more breeding stock. Hearing that corns and kings or corns and obsoleta can be mixed in offspring, they think it's a shortcut. These sorts of people, I agree, are detrimental to the hobby.

Some people want to breed hybrids because they've seen how pretty some of the offspring of those crosses can be. Not every hybrid is gorgeous, but there are hybrid crosses where the F1 generation is strikingly beautiful. (Okay, that's my opinion, and I know you don't share it...) They know the offspring are hybrids and intend to sell them as such, because the look is distinctive enough that pretending they're a single species is a discredit to the work they've done. I have no problems with this sort of rationale.

There's also the set of people who want to breed hybrids as a shortcut to getting a certain morph in a species (which seems to be partially the case here). I guess I have to side with the anti-hybrid crowd as far as the motive... once you pair the snake up with a separate species, the offspring don't qualify as the original species, so on those grounds the premise is faulty. That having been said, it's quite possible the F2 result would be quite interesting. But then we're leaning back towards the second set of people...

What I -DON'T- see... are people who deliberately set out to wreck the genepool. As for corn morphs not being "good enough"... If people were satisfied with "good enough", we'd not have any new inventions, any new art, any new... well... anything. The world would be a pretty stagnant place if everyone was satisfied with "good enough". And isn't the "wanting what no one else has" the driver for people to create new and different morph combinations?

The hostility I've seen on this forum is unnecessary... If you want to argue -anything-, you're better off using calm rationalization rather than demonizing the process and the person.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

While I realize that most hybridizers do not intend to wreck the genepool, their actions (unless they keep every single hatchling or keep track of anyone who buys one from them) are detrimental to the genepool as a whole.
As far as "good enough", morphs are one thing but breeding hybrids is something else. Inventions are one thing, inventions make our lives easier and more pleasant, but snakes have already been invented. It is kind of like seeing a 2 incredible purebred showdogs, a german shepard and a labrador retriever bred together to produce mutts, the kind killed in shelters everyday. Intentional breedings like that I am sure would make fanciers of both breeds cringe. Just like purposely hybridizing cornsnakes, MY chosen species, makes ME cringe.

I realize that hybridizing is a part of this hobby, and not about to end anytime soon. That doesnt mean I have to like it.

for every person breeding hybrids, such as me and my corn/great plains rat mixes, there are hundreds breeding pure corn snakes.
The numbers do not support your irrational fear that the corn snake is in any jeopardy of being bred out of existance.
I personally see guttata/emoryi as interbred and not hybrid due to the simple fact that they can and have bred in the wild just as the yellow rat and everglades rats, or black and grey rats have done.
I think recent classification updates and changes may be against me on that but I haven't actually seen it in writing yet.
I seriously believe in properly identifying every snake.
And I also believe it is just as easy to keep mixes separate and properly labeled as it is to do the same with all the different morphs.
I would like to see evidence that any pure gene pool is being threatened by breeding hybrids and I would truly like to see a list of these "ramifications" I keep hearing about and proof that any of the said ramifications are coming to light.
I'm not asking for a heated argument or your beliefs I am asking for simple proof.
I will not argue opinions. I have givien mine, you have given yours.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Draybar, someone like you who breeds natural crosses are fine with me. And I know you are way beyond ethical as well. Creamsicles might not be to my taste, but they are not like the "crazy stuff" some people are trying to breed. Kings to corns, milks to pines...anything to anything and the more far apart the species the better. It just "feels" so wrong to me, irrational or not.

As far as my own experiance, I bought my first corn 9 years ago. He was labeled just "amel corn". He turned out to be a sunglow. My second was labeled the same, turned out to be a reverse okeetee (not that I am complaining lol). My third was a normal I got off someone who bred creamsicles and candycanes. This was before I knew that creamsicles were half emoryi. To this day I dont know if she is a rootbeer or not. I had bred her in the past before this had even occurred to me. 9 years ago did the term "rootbeer" even exist? I am fairly certain most of my offspring from this female will never be bred, but I am not 100% certain. It is situations like mine that bother me alot. I may have unwittingly added to the problem myself. And I wonder how many others?

Although I feel there is no true detriment to pure species and I almost got into jungle corns I do hesitate when it comes to completely different species.
king/corn
corn/gopher
etc etc
Although I will never get into any of those, I don't really see anything wrong if that's what people want to do.
I think it proves that these species are a lot more closely related then we may think.
Actually the king/corns and others are a lot easier to identify as hybrids then creams, rootbeers ands cinnamons.
Oh well
Some will only work with pure no matter what species they may work with.
Some people will work with pure and a few mixes.
And some will play mad scientist and put any and everything together they can think of.
All we can do is hope the mixers stay ethical and list any and all mixes/hybrids as exactly what they are.
I honestly believe that as more people become interested in hybrids it will actually be a benefit.
More people interested in hybrids a benefit?????
How can that be????
There will be no reason to lie about what is in the mix.
People used to be more prone to "hide" the fact that there may be emoryi in the mix but as more and more people are working with corn/gpr mixes the need to hide the emoryi blood will no longer be neccessary.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

It is kind of like seeing a 2 incredible purebred showdogs, a german shepard and a labrador retriever bred together to produce mutts, the kind killed in shelters everyday.

Of course, the purebred dog breeds tend to have loads of health problems due to genetic bottlenecks... whereas mutts are more likely to be healthy. (You're speaking to someone who's family has a lab-aussie mix, and a lab-something mix, both pound rescues.) The analogy doesn't really fit cornsnakes/hybrids though. The purebred dog analogy is more akin sunglow/candycane than corn/king. You'd do better to bring up dog/wolf hybrids, though that's probably closer to corn/obsoleta.

Call me crazy, but I don't see 'mutts' or hybrids of any sort as being a bad thing in and of themselves.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

Yep can't compare mutt dogs to hybrid snakes.
Although I do have two purbred dogs, a chocolate Lab and a Beagle I also have three mutts. Two sheltie/mutt mixes and a "who-the-hell-knows" mix and to be truthfull, all three of the mutts are smarter then Jake and Hank the chocolate lab and Beagle.
By the way, they are all rescues even the beagle and lab.
Since I listed Jake's and Hank's names I better give equal time to the rest.
Sandy and Dusty are the Sheltie mixes and Sam is the multi mix.
The only way I could actually compare dogs to snakes is the simple fact that although there are mutts bred every hour there is still absolutely no danger of any of the purebred dogs being bred out of existance. At least not by accident.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Well I knew the dog analogy was a bad one. Especially since all the breeds are man made. It's just that I LOVE corns, corns and corns and I hate to see mad scientists messing with "my" species.

And is there any way I can tell if my girl Katie is a rootbeer just by looking at her?

Not really... fortunately the solution for purebred canines is the same as for purebred cornsnakes. The American Cornsnake Registry exists for the purpose of keeping track of cornsnake lineage, kind of like the AKC exists for keeping track of purebred dog lines. So perhaps that will help you breathe a sigh of relief, knowing that you'll be able to look up the pedigree of snakes registered there...

-Kat
American Cornsnake Registry

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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

I got Kate 8 or 9 years ago from someone who bred both candycanes and creamsicles. Kate is a normal. I dont think the registry existed when I got her and if it did, I doubt the breeder registered her animals there. When I discovered that creamsicles were part emoryi (see previous post) I asked the breeder if Kate was part emoryi too and she could not remember. By then I had had Kate about 5 years.

can you post pics?
It may be possible to tell by looking.
And then again it may not....lol
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I am an absolute idiot when it comes to pic posting...plus I have no pics of her. But as soon as I get one and figure out what Im doing I can start a new thread thats not allllllll the way down here
Sunday is the best day for picture-taking as we work 6 days a week, but if its not raining on Sunday hubby wants to get rid of some stuff at the flea market. I would LOVE it if I knew for sure.