Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just curious: what's the word nowadays from the way lesser known mountain ranges of west Texas and alterna finds? Its fairly obvious that alterna must be in most of the desert ranges of West Texas, but how many ranges have actually produced? A previous poster mentioned the Cornudas and wondered. I have a feeling they may NOT be there due to the nature of the basins around them but it would be interesting to know. I'm particularly wondering about these ranges:
Apache Mtns
Sierra Diablo Mtns
Quitman Mtns
Malone Mtns
Blanca Hills north of Sierra Blanca
Rimrock country SE of the Huecos
Delaware mtns
Rosillos Mtns.

Anyone know of alterna from any of these? Sure would be fun to see some from these regions! I would VERY much like to see some from the Mapimi Basin in Mexico and from other areas in Mexico. Maybe some Mexican biologists will connect up with people up here sometime with new info on that.

BTW, the alterna pages that show known specimens are outstanding. Kudos to all who helped on putting that together!
--Henry W.

In response to your query about alterna being found in some of the less-known locales, I have some info that you might find interesting. One of my old hunting buddies from El Paso is a border patrol agent. He lives in Acala, which is near Fort Hancock. He was up on "the rim", which can be accessed from Fort Hancock on a dirt road to the north, looking for illegals. He told me he found a dark phase alterna there that evening at twilight. The rim is probably semi-continuous with the southeastern portion of the Huecos, and continues east to semi-connect with the Malones, Findlays, Sierra Blanca, etc. Why, when alterna have been found in the Huecos and the rim, would they not be found in similar habitat all along the various hills and chains that either are connected or are separated by relatively small valleys? We are not talking about the very edge of the known range for alterna, but rather ideal habitat well within the known extensions. I once attended a lecture given by a lepidus guru who had at the time the largest collection of breeding locality paired leps in the US. I believe he had 15 localities. He stated that in his expereince the leps were found in virtually every suitable habitat within the known range. He had spent untold hours searching all of the chains in New Mexico and said he had found them in almost all localtions where hh had been. He surmised that with more time he would find them in every mountain group within the known range.

Yes. They've been found in the Quitman's and the Hueco's so the rim is no surprise. They've yet to be found in the Apaches but I expect that to change soon. The Cornudas are in between the Guads and the Hueco's so that won't be a big surprise. They've been found in the Beach, and I believe someone lost one on the fringe of the Delaware's off of 54.

There are more surprises waiting to be found, I'm sure of it. The known range can be expanded in at least three directions IMO.

Forky

Lets not Forget about the eastern part of their range. Some of those snakes may actually be harder to find because of the habitat but lets not rule out any range extensions there. It seems that people are just a lot less likely to spend any real time searching the eastern part of the range.
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Steve W.

Agreed, I would love to see the east opened up!
Todd Hughes

MSSDDS, did your border patrol friend collect the one he found? ANy chance of a photo or a more precise record of the locality? That's a very cool find.

Joe, did you get a chance to see any of the animals from the Beach Mtns? Are there photos?

It would be a lot of fun to do detailed mapping of variations in color patterns on lepidus in the region and see how they relate to the alternas across the region. Likewise, I'd like to see some really detailed work with piktigaster distributions and correlate that. The person mentioned that has locality specific lepidus across west Texas would be the person to start with. That must be a fascinating collection to see.

Anyone else out there know of out of the way alternas? --Henry W.

PS I just got a new slide scanner so I can scan some of my old alterna shots and post sometime soon.

only one known from the Beach. Troy Hibbitts' brother found it night walking with a flashlight.

Here is an older photo, I'll be updating it soon with a new scan Troy sent me, as well as ton of others from various locals.

This Photo by Troy Hibbitts, specimen found by Toby Hibbitts I believe:

If you want to add your photos to the galleries after you scan them send me copies and I'll get them added.

Joe, I'll be sure and forward some photos to you when I get them together. I look forward to your updates. --Henry W.

No, unfortunately my friend only stopped to see it and then drove on. He had stopped collecting herps by that time (1998).
He did identify the locality, though and I would be willing to share it. You take the dirt road north out of Ft. Hancock. The road more or less goes straight out for I guess ten or fifteen miles. You come to an the hills and head up the curvy road. After the road levels off again is where he saw the alterna, on the left side of the road in some rocks. The habitat is awesome, but I believe it is private property.

Thanks for sharing the locality.

Alterna populations can be found in the little known Indio Mtns approx. 25 miles southwest of Van Horn. Like most of their range, it's pretty much inaccessible unless you know one of the ranchers. I will try and upload a pic of a male photographed on site. There are also alterna populations in the Sierra Vieja Mtns. along the Mexican border(south of Valentine). Archaeo, you might be interested to know that in the early 1900's there used to be an Army Calvary Post located in this Mtn Range. There is still some remnants of this post, among many other artifacts. Again, it's pretty much inaccessible unless you know some ranchers. There are some pretty nice canyons in this range. And of course, this range runs into the Chinati Mtns (Pinto Canyon) but it's such a hot spot for drug smugglers and Border Patrol Agents that it's almost not worth the worry. Not to mention that you better have some good 4 wheel drive for the washed out dirt road. My ol' man caught one alterna out of Pinto in the 70's ... I have only seen a lepidus.

I've heard of a number of alternas from Pinto Canyon but had not heard of the other ranges you mention. I hunted Pinto for 3 nights one time long ago (before the current border woes) but found only suboc, atrox, and lepidus. You are right, it is not a particularly easy road to hunt. Back when I was there, you could stay at the Hot Springs, which was a nice spot for my soon to be wife and I. I never really felt like I was likely to find alterna there for some reason which no doubt did not help my luck.

I wish we could see more photos of Mexican alternas. I'm sure there are a fair number of them from over the years, though most were probably illicit and people would be afraid to advertise them. Perhaps there are some that have died so there is no risk for someone to post an anonomously collected one photo (don't get me wrong here -- I'm not condoning illegal collecting south of the border!). Some of the Mexican ones are very cool. I'll post a few photos in the future.

I would enjoy seeing the old calvary post though I'm not a historic archaeologist -- I work with prehistoric stuff (mainly southern and central Arizona and west Mexico). --Henry W.

Yes, I would love to see some of the Mexican alterna. It would be interesting to know how large their Mexican range truly is. I'm sure their are some unbelievable animals to be found. There's some good habitat along the Rio Conchos river that runs from Ojinaga to Chihuahua City. I've always wanted to get down there and at least photograph. But, I don't think the Mexican Military would take to kindly to road hunting back and forth all night. You would come across as a smuggler for sure! And forget about spot lighting down there! I've been down to the Sierra Del Nido Mtns and what a place that is! Henry, have you ever ventured down there to see Casas Grandes? I'll email you soon...

Alterna populations can be found in the little known Indio Mtns approx. 25 miles southwest of Van Horn. Like most of their range, it's pretty much inaccessible unless you know one of the ranchers.

The Indio Mountains are owned by the University of Texas at El Paso so there aren't any "ranchers" to know. It is a biological/geological research station and is closed to collecting (except for vouchers taken to the UTEP collection). There have been a few alterna found there (I tried and failed a number of times while at UTEP!). There are pictures of one of the Indio Mtn snakes on the web - museum.utep.edu/chih/theland/animals/reptiles/laal.htm.

Carl Lieb also has pictures of an alterna collected in the Eagle Mts. (big mts SW of Van Horn) that is in the UTEP collection.

There are also alterna populations in the Sierra Vieja Mtns. along the Mexican border(south of Valentine). Archaeo, you might be interested to know that in the early 1900's there used to be an Army Calvary Post located in this Mtn Range. There is still some remnants of this post, among many other artifacts. Again, it's pretty much inaccessible unless you know some ranchers.

Isn't this the range that Travis LaDuc is resurveying? If it is that range, I think he spent a few weeks out there this summer. No alterna but he did find some interesting stuff, if I remember correctly. There is an impressive herp list for this mtn range, if it is the one I am thinking of.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

Yes, UTEP does own a large chunk of the Indio Mtns. but the surrounding ranches also contain Mtn. habitat. In fact the last I heard, UTEP was trying to purchase additional lands around the existing research station, in particular to the south which would give them river frontage. The Sierra Vieja Mtns are spectacular, as well as remote. The wildlife here is abundant because it's virtually untouched. I am from Marfa, so these Mtns were not that far away when I was living there.

Yes, UTEP does own a large chunk of the Indio Mtns. but the surrounding ranches also contain Mtn. habitat. In fact the last I heard, UTEP was trying to purchase additional lands around the existing research station, in particular to the south which would give them river frontage.

I think they closed all those deals by doing land swaps for a few parcels they owned in neighboring ranges. I have been down to the river on the Indios with the UTEP crew on a couple of occasions, so I think the deal may have already been done even back then (early 90s).
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

One out of the way location where I think alterna is likely to occur is near Alamagordo, New Mexico. The habitat is continuous
from the Huecos. A narrow strip of Chihuahuan desert rocky
limestone occurs on the Western edge of the Sacramento Mountains.
I've walked around there.

I also think the chances are good for alterna occurring near Uvalde. The favorable habitat I've seen doesn't have any good road
access though. Troy???

I too question whether alterna would occur in the Cornudas. The habitat is good, but the migration routes are questionable.

>>I too question whether alterna would occur in the Cornudas. The habitat is good, but the migration routes are questionable.

Questionable but not impossible, from the Sierra Diablos to the Sierra Prieta, the the Cornudas. If you're standing in the Cornudas alterna have been found NE, Due West, SW, SE, and Due south of you. So I really don't see why not.

By the same arguement you use you could say there is no migration route for willardi amabalis in the Del Nidos, yet they are there.

There are isolated populations out there, and no doubt some will surprise.

Forks

I think that the habitat (and snakes) are probably present in NW Uvalde Co . . . after all, its not that far from 674 N of Brackettville where the snakes are known to occur. However, there are only (IMHO) two spots along roads that look remotely likely . . . TX 55 near Chalk Bluff, and fm 334 North of Chalk Bluff. Anywhere else, you're looking at a "fluke" snake like the one that was found near Lobo.

Troy

That Lobo snake was not a fluke, I was looking at the area not long ago and see where it came from. There are more there.

As far as NW Uvalde county. Most likely. I believe they are on the long cut 12 miles west of Uvalde and I believe they in the Anacacho Mtns too.

Forky

I don't mean the Lobo snake was a fluke in that there aren't snakes on that hillside west of the road, but that it was a fluke in the sense that how many alterna stray out that far from the base of the hillside.

As for Uvalde Co, I don't see any reason why they may not be up along and between the W and main Nueces Rivers. I think that the cut west of Uvalde is a bit more "iffy", but that the Anacachoa Mts are a bit more likely.

Troy

Off the top of my head - known ranges on the western extremities of the snake's range (with vouchers):

Huecos, Guads, Beach, Delawares (62/180), Van Horns (Lobo), Indios, Eagles, Sierra Vieja

I've seen photos of snakes supposedly from Shafter & Pinto Canyon (Chinatis, more or less)

I've heard stories of snakes from the Quitmans (never so much as a photo). I've also heard rumors of a sighting on 55 north of Van Horn alongside the base of the Baylors.

I saw a snake on the road in the Apaches (fm 2185) way back in 1989 that could have been an alterna . . . I was very inexperienced back then, had horrible lights on my car, and it got into the grass and I couldn't find it. It could have been a splendida, I guess, or something else, but it sure looked like an alterna. Snakes have also been found very close to the eastern Apaches - near Kent, both on 118 and on I-10 east of there.

Obviously, there are almost certainly a good number of snakes out there that have been kept secret (like the Huecos caught in the 90s) or that have just never surfaced (non-alterna nuts) or that were collected way back when.

Rumors and speculation for the rest of the range:

Rosillos Mts are in the Park . . . there are a handful of roadkill specimens between Persimmon Gap and Panther Jct.

Woods Hollow Range (Caballos Novaculite formations S of Marathon) - I've heard what I consider a tall tale of 3 roadkills found at the same spot . . . 1 female and 2 males on 385, but that's it.

East . . . I still can't get anyone to pin down the easternmost animals beyond specimens we know about - Carta Valley and fm 674. I have heard that a snake was possibly observed at Devil's Sinkhole, and rumors exist of snakes near Chalk Bluff in Uvalde Co, as well as near Telephone in Kimble Co.

Other places I'd expect animals:

SW Reagan Co - habitat is continuous with stuff in Upton and Crockett Cos

All around Sonora - a few snakes (photos exist) have been found on 277 south of town, but I'd expect them anywhere around town - it is the Dry Devils River, after all.

Hope that about covers it . . . of course, all the real questions are in Mexico, if you ask me. I really want to find a live Durango alterna to see what it looks like (I've seen the one dead one at the TCWC)

Troy

Troy, that's a very large 2 cents! Nice summary. I remember Bob Mackin finding several alterna by Shafter long ago as well as several in Pinto Canyon. At first with him I doubted what he was telling me but when he consistently showed me the animals the day after he caught them, I started believing him -- especially since I knew he was not on the roads elsewhere -- I knew he had to be in different locales. I too would dearly love to see some Durango animals and wish I'd spent some time there when I had permits way back when.

That Indio Mtns alterna on the web is really a beauty.

Thanks all for a fascinating thread. Anyone else have ideas? --Henry W.

My Dad has a young adult Shafter Male that he caught August 2004. It's the real deal, but he lives in Marfa and has spent many hours hunting Shafter. He keeps to himself and doesn't have internet, but I'm going to photograph it one of these days. It was in deep shed when I was there for Labor Day so I didn't see much sense at the time. It's a blairs phase with some interesting red bands, but no mottling to speak of.

It would be great to see a photo if you get the chance sometime. Sounds like a pretty interesting animal. --Henry W.

add to that the unsubstansiated rumors of real county alterna seen by a formar sheriff of the area, it's at the scout camp, name of which escapes me right now.

I'm sure if you'd spend some time on 335 you could nail that one, but you have to believe, and I'm not positive that you do.

Forky

I don't believe that there are any alterna east of Rocksprings. 335 is a great road for alligator lizards and bairdi, barking frogs and slimy salamanders, but it doesn't look right or (unscientifically) feel right for alterna. I intend to hit 377 next year pretty hard.

If the supposed scout camp alterna was at Camp Faucett near Barksdale, well, that's all in the flats near the River . . . if it was supposed to be at Camp Eagle, then at least that's in the hills, but its "pure Hill Country" habitat there.

Uvalde Co I can buy into - its at least partially semi-desert country, lacking in little slimy salamanders peering out of every crack on the hillsides and road cuts - however iffy that I think it is.

Troy

camp eagle

it's your backyard man! don't make me come find them!

Forky

Its not like I'm never up there . . . I was up there this evening - 1 Gator AOR . . .

Anyway, you find one up there, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong . . . hell, if I find one up there, I'll post "Joe was right, I was wrong" . . . but I don't think either of us will.

Troy

We used to collect a few Alterna from the King Mountain area which is just south of Odessa Tx.

Not too many people hunted that area and it's now extremely difficult to get up there due to gates/fences etc. But several years ago it was the place to go.