Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Recently, I observed two separate instances of death feigning with my alterna. One involved a wc adult male from E. Sanderson collected in 2004. The other involved a 2005 cb hatchling from Dryden. Both incidents involved escapees and experiences with cats. The first incident involved the wc adult - I found the alterna on the carpet in a loop, belly up and badly mangled with my three cats sitting down around it. I remember picking the snake up, turning it over, seeing ripped skin and sitting down with the snake in my lap – limp as a noodle. The snake was gone…or so I thought. At some point while I was holding the snake I noticed the tongue flicker. I put the snake back in its cage and within seconds it returned to normal movement. The second incident involved a hatchling that had escaped, but was found in my daughter’s room with a cat standing over it. The hatchling was on the carpet, head turned in, and limp as a noodle. Recalling my experience with the adult, I picked up the hatchling and put it in a deli cup stuffed with a paper towel and the alterna returned to normal movement within 15-30 seconds.

Update: the wc adult alterna has gone through a shed and has eaten a small meal – so I think it’s going to be ok. It still has a patch of exposed flesh where the skin has been ripped away. Not so good for the hatchling alterna. I noticed a kink in the spine shortly after the cat attack, so it was euthanized. Just an FYI.

RP

What the hell are you doing with cats anyway when you own snakes!!!!!!!!! THEY DON'T MIX! I'm ashamed for you! ACE the cats.

Wayne

I hear you. I hate those cats! First, there was one for each of my two daughters, then a third for...I can't even remember the reason (the wife???). Hey, but look on the bright side - I could end up with a "piebald" alterna after the wounds heal up (LOL).

Robert

You can tell a lot about a person by what they feed their cats LOL.

I might as well get it started, "Do you know what Pelaez feeds his cats? Alterna Chow!" (OH MAN!)

RP

You can tell a lot about those who hate cats by that statement, if meant.

The cats are just being cats. Seems to me the best method for not letting cats get the snakes, is to make sure they don't mix as mentioned earlier, ie keep the snakes in their respective enclosures.

At the risk of sounding judgemental, I have, and continue to have cats and snakes all of my life (41 now) and have yet to lose a snake to a cat.

It is probably safe to say that anyone keeping snakes for any long period of time has experienced and escape or two. If an escape ends up w/ an injured or dead snake due to crossing paths w/ a cat or cats, the death or injury is on the keeper of the snake(s) not on the dreaded evil feline who's just being what it is... a cat.
DB

ya hit it on the nail doug!!

Doug,

I think you need to watch a few more comedies. I got more than one stir-fry cat recipe email from people that read my post (gee, more than one must mean stir-fried cat must taste pretty good) and I'm going to assume they weren't serious. This isn't about hating cats, or loving cats and hating their particular inquisitive nature when they knock over egg or show boxes or even small aquariums. This isn't about my absent-mindedness, or taking responsibility for an escape OMG! LOL! This is about alterna feigning death. FYI-I love
pussies.

RP

Robert,

I assure you that watching comedies, as you recommend, is not needed in my case, even if you did draw such a conclusion.

While I thank you for pointing out that the original topic was about death feigning in alterna, I was responding to your reply to Wayne that stated "I hate those cats".

I have never met you and only know of you from this forum. My first sentence concluded w/ the words "if meant". Your statement above seemed genuine to me, but since I don't know you I was giving you the benefit of doubt.

It was interesting reading your origial reports of your experience w/ death feigning w/ your alterna, however it is not a new subject. This was reported in Herp Review back in 1984 by Bern Tryon. And for what it's worth, have experinced it first hand a couple of time over the last 20- 25 years w/ some hatchlings that I produced.

It has been my personal experience that people that genuinely hate cats, or proclaim to, as you stated you do, tend to be people that aren't worth a damn. I hope that you either said it in jest or that you are the exception to my experience. I therefore stand by my original statement.

DB

I knew it was not new, but I told him to post it anyway, because there are very few published instances (one?) and only a few other anecdotal accounts of death feigning. It sounds like it should be reported more often because some folks have left behind or disposed of animals that may not have been dead?

Forky

Hey Joe,

I certainly would have figured you knew of this topic before it showed up here and it is an interesting one that may not have shown up on the forum previously.

I probably made that statement about death feigning being nothing new out of a bit of irritation. No disrespect was intended to you or to the topic as I had no knowledge of your involvement.

Thanks again for all you do here and w/ alterna in general. Your knowledge on alterna is second to none and I'm sure everyone who actively reads this forum appreciates your insight.

DB

Doug, it’s been my experience in life (and I’m a little older than you – perhaps a bit wiser too as it's turning out) that I can’t simply draw conclusions about a person’s worth after they say they hate cats, dogs, or snakes for that matter. It takes a good bit of time and personal experience. In fact, I know very good people that hate cats, dogs or snakes. It’s too bad you don’t. In the end, you did contribute some useful information, but it's mixed in with all this cat crap.

If you wish to explain your experiences in more detail about the linkage between hating cats = bad person, I’d be very interested to read about it (in an email), not on this forum; certainly not in this thread. RP

that you found that "I could contribute some useful information mixed in w/ all this cat crap". It seems to me you did the same, so thanks.

Perhaps you are older and wiser than I and you do make some good points I'm sure, but as I stated earlier, my opinion, and that's all that it is, my opinion based on my personal experiences, is what I stated earlier. No doubt I'm sure there are exceptions, and as I stated, I hope you are one of them.

As for relaying those experiences here, it seems you have forbidden me to answer "not on this forum; certainly not on this thread". Besides are bickering has bored those not participating anyway.

DB

Why not post your own experiences with death feigning in more detail? You wrote:

And for what it's worth, have experinced it first hand a couple of time over the last 20- 25 years w/ some hatchlings that I produced.

I'm sure everyone on this forum would be interested - I sure as hell am, and it would be another important on-topic contribution. RP

RP,

While I don't know how interesting it may be to you and others, I will take the next step as you requested.

I have had 2 instances of death feigning occur w/ 2 snakes from different parents from clutches that were about 5 years apart, if memory serves. This happened in the early to mid 80's and has not occurred since to me, although I haven't produced nearly as many over the last 5 to 7 years as I once did.

The hatchlings, when handled, would immediately go limp. No other signs, such as mouth gaping, etc. was noticed. Once the snakes were put back into the container in which they hatched, w/in a few minutes they would start crawling again.

They repeated this 3 or 4 times over the course of a couple of days and that behavior was not seen again thereafter.

It was a couple of years later that I found the article by Tryon describing death feigning in alterna.

It might be interesting to see what would happen to babies that came from parents that showed this behavior as hatchlings themselves. I would think it rather difficult to come up w/ tests subjects however.

DB

I own cats Doug... my comment was an inside joke with Robert.

My original post was in no way targeted at you. I'm sorry that you took it as such. Your comment was obviously a joke, whether inside w/ Robert or not.

I certainly know that you have cats and harbor no hatred towards them. Once again please accept my apology for thinking my post was somehow directed or included you.

DB

I didn't take it as an insult...just wanted to clarify

Its good Mr.Pelez is not on the recomended breeders list. The alterna forum police would yank him off of it for feeding alternas to cats!!!

The cats seem to prefer the larger, more meaty Val Verde County variety. Both alterna and blairs phase nuggets are relished equally. RrrrrrrrrrP

Doug
If you are going to go off topic of a good post I hope your statements are at least taking into account why most herpers "hate" cats. Yes cats are great pets and everybody likes their cat and maybe even somebody else's cat but the thing about cats is this.

If you let your cat outside at all and you claim to like herps you are either not that smart or in a state of denial. All cats no matter how well fed will kill animals when outside. This does mean herps. Now if you keep yours inside great but the simple fact that feral cats do decimate populations of herps can't really be argued. The only area of Florida that there are not anoles of some type in large numbers that I know of is in the Miami area where all the snowbirds dump their cats. Feral cats aside your average neighborhood has 1 in 5 (or7) homes with cats. Those cats kill everything in their area that they can. Really the only animal worse to native animals is humans.

That said I have owned cats and I liked mine and I have liked other peoples cats but when i see a feral cat out in a area that I am hunting it just makes me want to leave... or...

Later Jason

Jason, Thats a very sweet looking blairs. Is it a locality speciman or a generic? Just curious.

Thanks
She is a generic from my stock. I only have a male River Road for locale Alterna. Picked him up this summer myself just west of Panther Canyon. Did the little dance and was all happy with myself until I found that most other herpers out that week and the week following got 2-3 and some guys got 4 in a night and then I didn't feel so special. At least my trip wasn't a total lose. Plus to get one on my first trip is pretty good. I have 3.3 right now plus babies but I am looking to pair up my male with a RR.
Later Jason

Definitely feel special! And a little superior, to boot! LOL! I must go out and try for one in year two, so enjoy them and remember the steps to the dance, for it will be popular for a long time! Had a great time last weekend and, although not an alterna, it is at least a kingsnake! And, just for the record, I love a little poosey, cat!
Todd Hughes

A well patterned splendida is a beautiful animal. I've only seen one splendida in Texas (with not too much contrast) and that was on the road between Marathon and the friendly neighborhood border patrol station south of Marathon. Maybe I'll see more next year around the Davis Mts.

Robert

Jason,

Finding one on the river during your first trip is very fortunate. Don't be fooled by the numbers found in the range of alterna further east. Many more are found and by more hunters, in Val Verde and Terrell counties each year than in Brewster, Presidio and Jeff Davis counties. One may be able to argue if they are more common there or not, but one can't argue the fact that they are easier to find in the eastern part of the range. IMO

I may suck at finding alterna or just be unlucky, but I am well over a 100 nights on the river road since I found my last 2 there in May of 94. Finding one your first time out is exceptional no matter where you hunt, especially so in the Bend counties.

Congrats on your find.
DB

Hi Jason,

It seems to me that it was others who went off topic before I did or didn't. I was merely adding my opinionated statement after reading a couple of posts about cats. If going off topic was a cause of posts being removed from threads, than a good number of threads would have been affected over the years.

While I can't speak to your Miami feral cat situation, I agree w/ your feral cat statements in general. I will go one step further and say to your statement about humans and wildlife, that the feral cat problem is just an extension of humans effecting wildlife detrimentaly. There would not be a feral cat problem if there was responsible cat ownership in the first place.

IMO, here we go w/ my opinion again, cats should not be alowed to roam outdoors for various reasons (there is a cat leash law here in St. Petersburg that goes ignored) besides the havoc they cause to wildlife. Our 3 cats are strictly indoors and even though we adopted them as previously being outdoor cats, they adjusted to indoor life quite quickly and appear to be quite content.

Thanks for your respectful 2 cents and nice blairs.

DB

Cool I know some people just don't get the fact that cats are so very destructive when allowed outside. Thanks for the compliments on the blairs.
later Jason

Hi Robert,

My wife and I met you last June just moments after you nabbed that black alterna north of Dryden.

Back in the early Seventies, Ray Guese (of the Dallas Zoo but now a semi-retired artist in Denver) found a Ringtail that had just killed an alterna on the River Road. The Ringtail ran off leaving a limp, motionless snake that was torn to shreds and full of punctures. He threw the dead snake on the floorboard of his car and continued hunting the rest of the night. At dawn he stopped to sleep but the snake was gone. After much searching, he eventually turned up a very live and pissy grayband!

Back in those days, every collector knew the history of every alterna that had ever been taken. Each had a story. That "dead" alterna went on to be one of the first founder animals to reproduce under captive conditions.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

we found adead alterna on a cut .....its one eye was blobied..i thought it had been nicked by a car...crawled there and died....we put in a jar to preserve later...next day it was ALIVE

I too have a Xmas female that escaped and was cat attacked. Found her in the basement, tip of tail missing, very cold to the touch, and tongue hanging out, barely alive. Placed her back into her cage and figured I would find her dead the next day but she pulled through and even took a meal within 5 days of the attack. The only difference I have seen with her is that her behavior has changed. She now musks every time I take her out to clean her cage whereas she never did this before the escape. She looks fine except for the stubby tail and what looks to be a broken rib that healed but slightly protrudes to one side.
Best..
Jim

This thread is really torturing me!

I no longer collect snakes but I probably had the worst luck of any would be gray-band collector. I never found a live alterna, despite 40-50 nights of searching.

The closest I ever came was when I spotted a light blairs phase on a cut along the river road. My euphoria came crashing down as I "caught" the snake only to find it totally limp.

I have always assumed it was found DOR and staged on the cut by a practical joking herper. After several choice words for the jokester, I respectfully laid the snake to rest behind some rocks and resumed my fruitless hunting.

Now, after years of reliving that painfull disappointment, I am wondering if it may have been alive after all.

I have to believe this thread may be torturing quite a few people. I've had these damn cats for about four years. During that time I had two other alterna get loose - both were hatchlings, each found "dead" with cats nearby. Both were immediately pitched into the garbage. If I hadn't sat down (in a state of deep depression and despair) with my prize adult on my lap and I hadn't noticed that ever-so-slight flicker of tongue it too would have been pitched into the garbage. I had no idea they feigned death like this.

RP

ACE THE fu***** cats!!!!!!!!!! How much simpler can it get?????

Wayne H.

Now be careful...you might get Beckwith on your ass! Or, maybe someone else who thinks your negative message about cats provides some insight into Wayne Howell, the man. Tell us how you really love cats, Wayne. Stop the facade. Show us your feline-feminine side...tell us how their purring really relaxes you and stirs you to tears. It's alright...we're here for you.

RP

Please dear GOD don't get me started!!!!!!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

W

Hi Terry,

Yes I remember. I hope I represented myself well - usually I'm pretty dumbfounded in the minutes following an alterna find. But, that was alterna#2 on this trip. When I found alterna#8, I was issuing blasphemous profanities like, "Oh no - not another alterna!!!!!!!!"

That's encouraging news - I was really worried about this snake because of the exposed flesh. It soaked in its water bowl for a few days following the incident and was turning the water pink. It was hard to look at.

Robert