Reptile & Amphibian Forums

my red ear slider isn't full grown yet but is big enough to eat just about anything he wants but i don't know why he wont eat the goldfish i offer him he chases them sometimes but he never eats any. Is this normal and what else can i do? ive been trying to give him more than just turtle food that he's been on since a hatchling. I haven't noticed any golfish dissapearing so i know he hasn't ate them. any help is appreciated.
thanks,
kyle

some goldfish just learn to steer clear of that swimming shell. some turtles just dont catch fish that well, or dont put much effort into chasing down something when they can just wait a little while and eat easier to catch pellets. goldfish and all feeder fish can introduce disease. eating a lot of fish and protein matter can cause pyramiding of the shell. redears are also mainly but not strictly herbivorous as adults. try some dark green kale and other lettuce. most pellets, and reptomin is not included in this, provide a full diet and it would be okay if this were the only thing they ate. sounds like you are doing things just fine. you have nothing to worry about with this.

You might want to change from goldfish to feeder guppies. I have heard that the goldfish have a higher fat content than the guppies. They are also a little smaller. Mine loves to chase them and eat them. You may want to keep them in a separate bowl and give them to him every once in awhile instead of leaving them in there all the time. It might pique his interest more.

Ash

thanks for the help im kinda new to turtles anyway.

No one has mentioned the fact that goldfish have a much thicker slime coat than other fish. This is why they muck up the water so much, not to mention that they turn the water very acidic. That is why most fish hobbist do not keep them with other species.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

actually i believe they produce twice as much ammonia (basically waste) as other fish. but yes, they do make the water gross..
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my pets: clown treefrogs, reed frogs, big eyed treefrogs, tiger leg monkey frogs, gray treefrogs, milk frogs, cuban treefrogs, whites tree frog, green treefrogs, squirrel treefrogs, blue webbed gliding treefrog, chameleon treefrogs?, dusky salamanders, tiger salamander, veiled chameleon, box turtles, mud turtle, map turtle, yellowbelly slider, florida softshell, two saltwater tanks, four cats, two chinchillas, and a boyfriend.

Having had aquaria for over 20 years and being a marine biology major...it is the thicker slimecoat that is the root of the problems with goldfish co-existing with other species. If the production over more waste was the problem, then better filteration would be the answer. Unfortunately it is not.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

i just wanted to know exactly what brought you to that conclusion. i havent heard it. they do produce more waste. they also cant be with other fish because their conditions are completely different, lower temperature, a different pH than most fish. if you keep them warm enough for other fish, theres not enough oxygen for the goldfish. if you keep them cold enough with tropical fish the tropical fish get sick. why would a thicker slime coat hurt the other fish? and when in your marine biology studies did you study this? if you didnt than that doesnt mean you know any more than we do. if you did study the affects of thicker slimecoats of goldfish on tropical cohabitating fish it still leaves the fact of temp, pH, and stuff like that make them incohabitable. personally i find that a lot of people who have been doing this(fishkeeping) for long periods of time may actually be worse, and this is not directed at you in this case necessarily, because they have gotten into habits that are outdated and wont change to new and improved methods and equiptment. they also believe that the simple fact that they are 'experienced' means they know everything. you can never know everything. a kid who just started and has spent the past 3 months or something like that reading may have more current and practical knowledge than someone who is very experienced and refuses to change his/her ways.

Well, when you study Marine Bio, you are required to study ALL fish species. Lots and Lots of memorization!!! As to the slime coat, part of the excess waste is actually the slime coat sloughing off. Ever wonder why it seems to be harder to keep algae under control in a goldfish tank or pond?? Bet you thought it was just because of so much light. Goldfish turn the water acidic, in turn there are certain types of algae that thrive and bloom in acidic water (also had to study Aquatic Botony ) Bet you also didn't know that a Goldfish can die of constpation if overfed to much. Goldfish are very interesting little guys, very fun to breed and raise, and to some they are an obsession. Lots of different morphs and subspecies, but really best if only kept with other goldfish. Think about it, pet stores often co-habitat their fish, but Goldfish are almost always in tanks buy themselves. They are most assuredly a "community" fish, so why the seperation?? Maybe I am not as far off base as I seem Oh yeah, Goldfish are much higher in fat content than something like Guppies or Rosy Reds.

As to being "old school", no offense taken (though I am not that old! I can still hit an in the park homerun, and I'm a girl]!!. I personally like the new technology and such. It makes the hobby sooooo much easier!! Not to mention the ability to combine the info with the care of my two RES.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

algae is not a plant so it wouldnt fall under aquatic botany. they arent really a community fish because most people consider community to be a sub category of tropical fish which doesnt include the coldwater goldfish. i have never thought algae in ponds and goldfish tanks were due only to light. with the right nutrients(phosphates, nitrates, etc) plus light, algae will thrive in any tank, i havent noticed higher algae problems in goldfish tanks. i still dont see how slime coat is the explanation for this stuff. they produce too much waste for other fish to handle, even they cant handle it if you keep them as crowded as you usually keep tropical fish, and water conditions are still too different if that wasnt the case. most books recommend about half the biomass in a goldfish tank as in a tropical fish tank because of the extra waste. where did you here the slime coat thing? what about adding slime coat stimulating/simulating products like stress coat, wouldnt they have just as bad of an effect on tropical fish as a goldfish would if goldfish have this slime coat problem? do you know what i mean about the "experienced syndrome"?

Dude!!! Do your research!! Algae IS a single celled plant. It has Chloryphyll (you know, the stuff that makes plants green!) I spent an entire semester at a state university learning to identify them under a microscope. Even got to look at some cool stuff through an Electron Microscope. If you do not even realize that algae is a plant then this entire conversation is a complete waste of time. And as I said before, if the problems with Goldfish are simply that they produce to much biomatter, then the simple solution would be better filteration and water quality control! Since that does not work you have to look at other factors, such as the fact that their slimecoat has a different composition than other tropical fish. By the way, Betas are also considered a "coldwater" fish (as you like to describe Goldfish) however they do very well in aquaria with other "community fish".

Maybe you should do a little "old school" research and learn about the biomechanics of the different aquaria species. Like the fact that Goldfish, Danio, Barbs, Rasbora, and even Red-Tailed Sharks are in the same Family Cyprinidae. Or that the fancier the Goldfish, the higher temps. they require. They also do quite well in 80 degree water, provided you are not planning to breed them.) Did you also know that the domesticated Goldfish can be dated back to the T'ang dynasty (618-907 A.D.) in China.

Did I mention that I focused on the research aspect of my field. I am one of those rare people that obsesses about my "hobbies", and like to research and gather as much info as possible on the subjects before I even start. I also do not throw out information just because it is more than 3 years old. Proper research is a culmination of old and new school. Just because something is new does not make it better, and on the flipside, just because something was right 20 years ago does not mean it is right today. Research constantly challenges, proves and/or disproves old ideas as well as the new ones.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

http://www.borg.com/~lubehawk/kingdms.htm
states that bluegreen algae are a monera, algae is a protist. i will ask my biology lab professor tomorrow. plants are usually considered to be multi-cellular. i knew the chinese captivated the first fish (goldfsih) a long time ago. lets ignore the fact that slime coat is a problem. if it wasnt, wouldnt you say that with the other differences of water chemistry and temperature they still shouldnt be kept with any other fish? you still havent explained what exactly the problem is with the slime coat. you said it was different than other fishes', which supplies a good reason why they are different than their other family(rasboras, barbs, etc), but you didnt say why it is hazardous to the other fish. im arguing because i want a real scientific explanation of your theory. i have never heard it before and wont just accept it as true because some lady(no offense) online says so. i want some facts. if you have evidence i will probably accept it as a factor that requires their seperation from other fish. i will still consider the main reasons to be temp, chem, and waste load.

Community = Peaceful
Agressive = Not Peaceful
Predaceous = Eats other fish

Some "community" fish are only considered peaceful with fish their same size, and predaceous with smaller fish. Or only peacheful when small. Community is simply a description of the species temperment, not a sub-category of Tropical fish......I mean, come on, think of what the word actually means. Anyhow, this is the turtle forum, time to get back on topic.

Sorry guys for the previous lengthy post
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

i would classify like this:
coldwater
community
semi-aggressive
aggressive
i would consider tropical fish to include all but the coldwater. comm, semi-agg, and agg. just specify them further which is necessary for those not familiar with all aquarium fish species.
i dont see your point with old info, new info, you are right some info stays true through time, other info doesnt. i never argued that, i just said some people get stuck in their ways.

okay, talked to my bio lab professor who also knows that there are no algae that are plants. they are protists. even the simplest plants are moss and they are far more evolved than algae. as for the chlorophyl thing even some bacteria have chlorophyl, does that make them plants too? he also said he has never heard of the slime coat thing and doesnt see how it would even be rational. he stated he doesnt understand how someone can believe so strongly in something with no proof. so far you havent given any actual scientific factual proof to even support your theory. i am open to listen to it if you would just explain it.

and right at the same time. Green Algae falls under the Kingdom Plantae while Red Algae and Brown Algae fall under the Kingdom Protista.

Here is a link to that info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_alga

Here is a link to the description of an Aquatic Botany course, Algae is included

http://courses.utas.edu.au/portal/page?_pageid=53,33239&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&P_UNIT_CODE=KPA372&P_YEAR=2006

As to the slime coat issue, I am trying to find that information. Unfortunately, I am not in the mood to get my textbooks out of the attic Way, way to hot down here right now! I will keep looking on the net. if I could get my translation program to work better it would be easier.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

some books may mistakenly classify green algae as a plant, but they are wrong. my profeesor explicitly said NO algae can even be argued to be a plant. when i went on to ask about the slime coat he said you lost all credit with the algae thing. even if it were in your books about the slime coat thing, it may have been a developing theory at the time of publishing that was later realized to be wrong and that is why you seem to be the only person who has even heard of the theory.

Did you even look at the links I gave you??? Giant Kelp is considered a green algae, that is not a plant?? The info was not from an old book. Is this a high school prof.??

The "slime coat thing" is simply that Goldfish, as well as other pond fish (such as Koi) have an increased slime coat (which is why Plecos like to suck on them) which they often slough off (unless kept in perfect conditions). Any keeper of goldfish, that does regular Ph test will tell you that acidity is a prob. Having kept both goldfish, and tropicals, I can tell you that I do not have near the problem with tropical acidity that I do with Goldfish. Years ago I did research to find out why this seemed to be so, and it had to do with the increased slime coat production and the reason why they have an increased slimecoat.

At any rate this is now a dead subject!! The original issue was that goldfish are not healthy for RES. They have a very high fat content compared to Rosy Reds and feeder guppies. If you do not care about water Ph, no big.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

kelp came up. it is a colony of protists not a plant. i specifically asked about that. kelp is an algae. and this is a college professor not a high school tacher. i still dont beleive your slime coat theory, if you do i obviously wont change your mind. and cant argue with you on that one anymore, but i think its wrong.

After hours of research and learning much much more about goldfish and algae than I ever wanted to know!!.....I am throughing out the slimecoat thing. I know what I learned when I was into goldfish, but it seems now that all people are doing research on are their retinas, their brains, and their pheramones......I have a headache. They are high in fat, who cares if they make the water acidic, there are chemicals for that!

As for algae, wow have they done alot of reclassification!! Tell your proffessor that they are not ALL protista. According to Berkley University the Brown, Yellow-Green, and Golden algae fall under Chromista, not Protista. Anyway here is a link to their site:

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/help/taxaform.html

Here is how they break them down.

Eukaryotic Kingdoms
CHROMISTA (Kelps, diatoms, haptophytes)

FUNGI (Fungi)

METAZOA (Animals)

PLANTAE (Plants)

PROTISTA (Protists)

You would be amazed at how much Goldfish pops up in conjunction with Marine Biology and Algae pops up with Aquatic Botany. Regardless of if you think they go together, the Universities sure think they do. Oh well, enough time wasted on unimportant matters. Hope you are having a great weekend!
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

that sounds right. if you do come across any more info on the slime coat thing post it so i can read it please. i would guess that you would anyways, but just to let you know i would like to learn about it.

Did you offer some veggies?
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