Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok...

the "Jelly" brooksi was produced from Breeding a peanut Butter to a T- albino in the first generation breeding

the PB have ruby red eyes (like lavenders)

the T- albino has pinkish eyes (like albino cali kings)

and the jellies have ruby red eyes (like lavenders)

Obviously if these are produced in the first generation there is some relation to the T- gene. so what if the PB are really a double HomoZ animal?

Maybe instead of being a different type of hypo it was actually a different type of albino?

some pix i see the PB have dark eyes and in other they have ruby red eyes so is it possible that there are two different things hatching out in the same clutch that look very similar?

any theories?


-----

Thanx
Royal Blue Reptilez

~ZF
Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

If PBs are double homo then the parents had to be double hets or each parent homo for one trait and het for another. Also if double homo, the first PB clutch should have also had two types of single homogenetic animals as well.

i didn't produce any but i think the first pb came from 2 unknown hets.

like i said i see some that have red eyes and others that don't maybe one of the parents was het for something else and when the pb was bred back to it's sibling the dark eyed and ruby eyed snakes were in the clutch.

I've been almost "stalking" this mutation... there is an obivious differnece btwn the first PB i saw and the PB(s) produced in `05... i think there is more to the gene than it just being a type of hypo or albino...
check out the pb(s) in this post... look at them all carefully

-----

Thanx
Royal Blue Reptilez

~ZF
Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

You may be on to something Zenny, but instead of saying it is a different type of albino you should say it is a different type of amelanism.......Hypomelanism is a form of albinism....as is axanthic, anery and amel.......Albino is so vague....it is a name given to species that lacks one or more pigments usually associated with said species. At least that is how it was explained to me in college back a few years ago.
But.....I knew what you meant bro....
John Lassiter

Maybe this PB gene is an amel gene that is masked in the T-.

Just the person i needed to talk to...

ok:
have you hatched out snakes from the PB project that are completely different... i mean at 1st glance they look PB but upon further inspection one had dark colored eyes and the other had ruby red eyes... the first PB i remember seeing had dark eyes like a normal (with a yellow iris) and the PB posted below has ruby red eyes (with a yellow iris) so is it possible my eyes were playing tricks on me?

i been paying very close attention to the "jelly" male and his eyes are ruby red but not the same as any of my lavenders (i got lavenders from 3 different breeders and there is no comparison)

it being another type of amelanism (JLassiter) would make sense esp. the fact that it starts off looking amel and ends up with lavender coloring on the tips scales with age (instead of black like in hypos)...
-----

Thanx
Royal Blue Reptilez

~ZF
Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

This is going to sound really lame on my part but I have not been paying attention to the eyes on any of them. I guess I need to do that "YA THINK!"

These are a very new morph and I really don't know whats going on with them. I have only been breeding PB male to female het. I am in the process of raising one of the light females up to see what will happen (assuming the female is a PB and not a het)and see what they produce.

All I can say is thank God for this forum and people like you Zenny. These PB morphs are not getting the attention they need and have fooled even the most seasoned colubrid breeders. They just don't fit into the box of thinking and therefore are a big ?

ill be excited to see Jelly x Jelly. t- Amel
Chris

ok cool.. not a biggy, i got a buddy that is a big Honduran "collector" he's never noticed that some of his hypos have ruby red eyes (like the extremes)

if you have any of the `05's left can you compare them to the original PB [the one that produced Bob's and Tom's PB(s)] the one that actually has the PB coloration. or bred the original pair together and a pair of holdback holdbacks next season and compare the clutches.
-----

Thanx
Royal Blue Reptilez

~ZF
Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

Another possibilitiy -- peanut butter and albino may be alleles, and jelly is the peanut butter//albino heterozygote. It will take some breeding to prove, though.

Paul Hollander

Posted by: Paul Hollander at Mon Oct 3 11:42:54 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Another possibilitiy -- peanut butter and albino may be alleles, and jelly is the peanut butter//albino heterozygote. It will take some breeding to prove, though

I am not sure if I follow you on this?

You saying a Jelly to jelly will produce something else? What about a PB back to its daughter Jelly? Can you explain what you mean about the Jelly beind the PB//amel heterozygot?

If peanut butter and albino are alleles, then they are different mutant versions of the same gene. Jelly would be the appearance of an individual that has a PB mutant gene paired with an albino mutant gene (PB//albino). "Heterozygote" is the noun form of "heterozygous"; a heterozygote is an individual that is heterozygous.

The normal version of the peanut butter mutant gene and the normal version of the albino mutant gene are the same gene.

A heterozygous albino snake has an albino mutant gene paired with a normal version of the gene and looks normal. A heterozygous peanut butter snake has a peanut butter mutant gene paired with a normal version of the gene and looks normal. A heterozygous peanut butter//albino snake has an peanut butter mutant gene paired with an albino gene and looks like the jelly snakes.

If albino and PB are alleles, then
1) jelly x jelly --> 1/4 PB, 2/4 jelly, 1/4 albino
2) PB x jelly --> 1/2 PB, 1/2 jelly
3) albino x jelly --> 1/2 albino, 1/2 jelly
4) heterozygous PB x heterozygous albino --> 3/4 normal looking, 1/4 jelly

For what it's worth, both the laboratory mouse and domestic cat have several mutant alleles of the albino mutant gene. Heterozygous individuals with two different mutant genes at the albino genetic locus look more or less intermediate between the two homozygous types. This is also the working hypothesis for ultramelanistic (AKA ultra) and amelanistic in the corn snake.

Paul Hollander

so in a nut shell you're saying that the PB and T- are different forms of the same mutation? like in hondurans where you see regular hypos (dark eyes dark bands), ruby eyed hypos (light purple/lavender bands) and extreme hypos (super light bands, ruby red eyes)?
they are all Hypo and all compatible but they have a very different appearance??

it could very well be. Now i need to get my hands on a T- and a PB.

Thanx for your input... it does help.
-----

Thanx
Royal Blue Reptilez

~ZF
Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

>so in a nut shell you're saying that the PB and T- are different forms of the same mutation?

I'm saying that it is possible that PB and T- are different mutations of the same gene. That they are compatible but have different names, different appearances, and different changes in the DNA of the gene that produces tyrosinase.

Paul Hollander

One out of the whole clutch of the PB X T- pairing was a dark looking normal. I will post a pic of her.

So does that throw the whole hypothesis out the door?

The normal could shoot down the allele hypothesis if there was no chance of it being sired by a normal. Did the mother ever get close to such a male?

Paul Hollander

here is the female normal

No other male besides the PB came close to the T- female.

I thought the mystery was finally solved. A few months ago I also stated that the gene may be acting in a similar manner as the ultra gene in cornsnakes only my lack of biology terms/education prevented me saying it as eloquently as Mr. Hollander : ) But if the female you’re holding is a normal (are you sure, lots of red) then I guess its back to formulating hypotheses.

Well, that normal female baby might still be from sperm retention from last year. So I'd like to see the same cross repeated next year to see if more normals appear. But the allele theory is pretty shaky right now.

Paul Hollander

hmmmmm. I never produced normal looking "hets" from the T- in the past years because I only bred T- to T- so where would the normal come from? Besides the normal looks just like the Jelly's in pattern and color. Just not a recessive Jelly. I plan on doing this breeding again next year. Matter of fact I have several T- amels and male PB's. So we will see a more definitive outcome.

The Peanut butters have always confused me. First with me thinking it was sex linked trait because the females are dark to now this T- breeding. There is definetly more to the PB's than meets the eye.

>Besides the normal looks just like the Jelly's in pattern and color. Just not a recessive Jelly.

I don't understand this.

Any chance of posting a picture of one or more jellies with the normal?

Paul Hollander