Reptile & Amphibian Forums

several animals (besides man) have been documented to engage in homosexual activity of some degree. can tortoises? i tried a little online research, and while wikipedia said that desert tortoises do, there was no description or documentation (this is often a problem with online research!)

the reason i'm thinking about this is because of lonesome george (i've linked to his story below for those unfamiliar with his situation and his behavior). is it possible that it's not a subtlety of species thing -- it could be that girls just don't get his motor running?

have any of you that keep multiple torts witnessed anything that would indicate that some swing the other way?

i'm being completely serious here; please bear with my curiosity!

*loves her tortoise no matter what; just wants him to be happy*
the tale of lonesome george

Same-sex preference is very well documented in the animal kingdom, especially among mammals. There is a strong developmental (and likely genetic) link to same-sex preferences, and I would find it hard to believe this relationship does not hold for other classes of animal.

I haven't seen any studies directly on-point for reptiles, but I'm sure the casual researcher could find some...

>>several animals (besides man) have been documented to engage in homosexual activity of some degree. can tortoises? i tried a little online research, and while wikipedia said that desert tortoises do, there was no description or documentation (this is often a problem with online research!)
>>
>>the reason i'm thinking about this is because of lonesome george (i've linked to his story below for those unfamiliar with his situation and his behavior). is it possible that it's not a subtlety of species thing -- it could be that girls just don't get his motor running?
>>
>>have any of you that keep multiple torts witnessed anything that would indicate that some swing the other way?
>>
>>i'm being completely serious here; please bear with my curiosity!
>>
>>*loves her tortoise no matter what; just wants him to be happy*
>>the tale of lonesome george

here's a quote from a research article i found via a google search (only so much research i can do at work) -- nothing on tortoises in particular, but interesting nonetheless:

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Reptiles: Homosexual behavior is not uncommon in reptiles. Female homosexuality is engaged in by the American chameleon Anolis. A male lizard of the genus Teiidae can copulate, by inserting his hemipenes into the cloaca of a receptive partner, equally well with females or males. "Homosexual copulation stimulates the passive male, so that he may change roles with the previously active male and complete a copulation in turn. Among the Iguanidae, ten of twenty-one observed copulations were male homosexual" (Denniston, 1980, p. 31). The purpose of homosexual behavior in some lizards may be territorial (Kirsch & Rodman, 1982). Males may mount other males as a show of dominion over a breeding area in order monopolize the chance to reproduce with females.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

what can i say; once i start thinking about something like this, i can't get it out of my head until i learn some more about it.
source article (much longer; an interesting read i think)

if you want to read up on neurobiological studies of same-sex copulatory behavior in lizards, use the term "pseudocopulation" in your search or just go to the david crews lab website at the university of texas, austin.

all-female species of cnemidophorus (whiptail lizards) pseudocopulate in accordance with the stages of their ovarian cycle.

i've been studying the same behavior in my herd of russian tortoises for several years now. females at specific stages of their cycle will pseudocopulate with other females (occasionally males). often times this type of behavior is cast aside as dominance behavior. in my mind, this is an erroneous judgement. too often the functions for behaviors such as territoriality and dominance are assigned to similar appearing behaviors. dogs may mount other dogs in play and in shows of dominance, but that does not mean that a similar looking behavior in tortoises serves the same purpose.

territoriality and dominance are very different behaviors used by some species under very specific conditions. these behaviors are often applied to animals before a true understanding of their function is determined.

another subtle difference that should be pointed out is not to equate same-sex copulatory or pseudocopulatory behavior to homosexuality. the documentation of true homosexuality is actually quite rare in animal studies. some of the best recent documentations of animal homosexuality is in rams.

Endocrinology. 2004 145:478-483
Brain aromatase: dyed-in-the-wool homosexuality

matt

thanks for the term; i'd be interested to read more about that.

i agree with what you said about the tendency to dismiss such behavior as play/dominance, re:dogs. i think that as humans/primates it's easier to understand our fellow mammals, especially those who socialize in ways that we can recognize and readily understand; reptiles, however, may have totally different motives altogether.

what do you think, personally, based on your observations?

since i'm guessing (perhaps generalizing incorrectly but going on what little i've read and from your previous post) that at least a good part of this behavior ties in with females' reproductive cycles, do you think that it's a completely natural and necessary thing that they stimulate each other? maybe it biologially encourages them to be more fertile or something?

and as for "true homosexuality" (which i'm thinking -- correct me if i'm wrong! -- would be consistent preference to the same sex, and not just play, dominace territoriality, or possible necessary reproductive stimulation), do you tihnk that reptiles can feel that? or maybe their concept of sexual preferenc,e if they have a such thing, is so different from our own that we coldn't begin to yet understand it.

i'm no scientist by any stretch, but animals fascinate me, and i am always interested in what goes on inside their heads.

"since i'm guessing (perhaps generalizing incorrectly but going on what little i've read and from your previous post) that at least a good part of this behavior ties in with females' reproductive cycles, do you think that it's a completely natural and necessary thing that they stimulate each other? maybe it biologially encourages them to be more fertile or something?"

that's how it works in parthenogenetic Cnemidophorus lizards. and it's how i think it's manifested in torts as well. so far the idea is that in some organisms, environmental conditions (light, heat) and courtship stimulates the ovarian cycle. this is well documented in chickens, for example. hens need to hear (and see?) roosters crowing, that stimulates ovulation and egg laying. this is not the case for induced ovulators (cats and most carnivores, snakes, etc.), they ovulate following copulation. tortoises will lay infertile eggs in the absence of sperm, so they are similar to chickens in that sense.

one year i separated my adult RTs by sex. the adult females were separated from the males from fall until late summer of the next year. during the spring, two of the females pseudocopulated with each other on a number of occasions, but the other two adults did not. that spring, like clockwork (all females double clutch each year in the spring) the two females that pseudocopulated, layed two clutches of eggs each. the two females who didn't engage in "homosexual" mounting behavior didn't lay a single egg.

"and as for "true homosexuality" (which i'm thinking -- correct me if i'm wrong! -- would be consistent preference to the same sex, and not just play, dominace territoriality, or possible necessary reproductive stimulation), do you tihnk that reptiles can feel that? or maybe their concept of sexual preferenc,e if they have a such thing, is so different from our own that we coldn't begin to yet understand it."

i agree that there needs to be a very narrow definition for the term "homosexuality" and based on such a stringent definition, i doubt that it exists in reptiles. animal models for true homosexuality would have to be found in social mammals with at least some amount of pair bonding.

matt

i certainly appreciated hearing your ideas and observations. i suppose that, applying what we've talked about to good old lonesome george, he couldn't really be a gay tortoise since in order for him to be homosexual he'd have to be interested in social, pair-bonding activity in the first place. it was just kind of a passing thought that i had (what can i say, i have a couple of gay friends, so of course that possibility pops into my head). i am still interested in looking more into the subject!

poor old george, though... it's a shame that he's the last of his kind.

I would lean towards other reasons other than him being gay. He might have been stressed from his relocation. They also said the females they put in there werent the same species so that may have played a part. He may just be really old. He may not be hibernating which would improve his chances. I have 2 males Russians and have never witnessed any sexual behavior between the two of them. Neither have I seen that with my RES. (both males)
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TurtsandTorts Discussion Group
2 Russians (Harley and Marley)
2 RES (Sunny and Fatty)
2 Gerbils (Sydney and Vienna)
1 Cat (Abby)

I agree with what George's story said about the males needing the other males in the enclosure to increase the competition. I had this problem with a 1.5 group of 3-toeds and by adding another male, my "lonesome" 3-toed became a "player." I think all mine needed was to see how it was done and then to compete with the other male, which included occasional fighting. Good luck!

i had a quiet giggle here at work over the thought of "lonesome george" perhaps too becoming a "player" someday.

(maybe some bling-bling would help him on his way...)

(resisting the urge to photoshop such an image here at work)

Ha! That would be a site to see!
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TurtsandTorts Discussion Group
2 Russians (Harley and Marley)
2 RES (Sunny and Fatty)
2 Gerbils (Sydney and Vienna)
1 Cat (Abby)