Reptile & Amphibian Forums

some are straight forward I know, but please indulge me and give me answers to all of them. I'm considering posting an alterna hunting FAQ page. These are just for starters.
After we do this you are free to post more questions for the FAQ, or just add them to the bottom of your post.

1) Is a hunting license still required?
2) Are any special permits or stamps required?
3) Is road hunting permitted?
4) What restrictions apply to spotlight use?
5) Is it legal to collect along the highway and road cuts within "Big Bend Ranch State Park" and "Black Gap WMA"?

As I'm sure you are aware, I have extensive discussions (email) over the past year with Director of Law Enforcement David Sinclair and Regional Director Major Steve Whitaker. I've also had personal discussions with Officer Ray Spears in Brewster Co, who confirmed most of what Whitaker and Sinclair told me. These are the interpretations that the Game Wardens, etc, have told me over the past year:

1) Is a hunting license still required?

yes, according to LE Director Sinclair.

2) Are any special permits or stamps required?

Only if you are collecting animals for sale or in excess of 10 per species that are on the commericial permit list (I think it includes Rattlesnakes, some lizards, most turtles, but not alterna).

3) Is road hunting permitted?

Both Director of Law Enforcement David Sinclair, regional LE director Major Steve Whitaker, and Brewster Co Game Warden Ray Spears have told me (in writing for the first two) that yes, road cruising and spotlighting road cuts is legal provided you pull safely off the road and collect the animal on foot, without violating traffic codes.

4) What restrictions apply to spotlight use?

Major Steve Whitaker and Officer Ray Spears told me that the only restriction on spotlight use is not to shine across traffic or down the roadway.

5) Is it legal to collect along the highway and road cuts within "Big Bend Ranch State Park" and "Black Gap WMA"?

I asked David Sinclair, and he never got back to me. However, Officer Ray Spears told that the roadway through these areas was under the jurisdiction of the Department of Transportation and that TPWD lawyers had told him that the roads and their right of ways could not be considered part of either the State Park or the Wildlife Management area. He did say that he could cite someone who ventured off the roads (up on top of road cuts, etc).

...until you're dealing with some game warden or county sheriff in the wee hours of the morning who has his own interpretation of the law. When they have the badge, the pistol and the ticket book, I'm not one to argue the finer points of what is or not legal--you are then a captive of that individual's mood of the day and personal prejudices. Texas seems to give its LE officers broad latitude in enforcement actions and when one is from out of state, it's simply not worth the hassle. I've been run off more times than I can count, been threatened with "shooting the lights off my bumper" or comments like "I can't wait to get you in my jail, boy" and been forced to pay cash fines in the middle of the night to some post office box in rural BFE (or BFT to be precise). Some redneck game warden doesn't give a damn about email messages from some guy who wears a tie and who works in a cubicle in the city. You can tell him about your "rights" and that with $3.00 will get you a Starbuck's coffee. Maybe if you are a resident of Texas the laws are interpreted differently, but that has NOT been my experience. That's my 2 cents worth for what it is.

Really makes them cooperative.

You pull out an email from Director of LE David Sinclair or Regional Director Major Whitaker that says its ok to hunt snakes in the manner you are doing, and the officers response will be (at least in my experience) "If that's what my boss says, that's what I'm going to do".

Troy

I just finished reading the entirety of your letter. And a couple of things come to mind.

1. Most of the old "hard-liners" have now retired or moved elsewhere. The Game Wardens in the Trans-Pecos that I've encountered recently (Officer Spears, Officer Huebner come to mind) are really cooperative and do take your rights into consideration - what they want most is for you to follow the law and be safe. Probably with the safety issue being held in higher regards than the other. These new officers are not "out to run you off" or "get you in jail"! I too have had run-ins with officers (in the past) where they said things like "if it were up to me, none of you snake hunters would be able to come out here [to the Davis Mts]" and "I could write you a ticket for the bugs in my grill". However, that has not happened to me in a long time (15 years or more).

2. That time reference brings up the 2nd point. If we expect the LE officers to not treat us as criminals just because they caught a snake hunter that was over 15 years ago, then we have to return the favor - don't let the mistakes and overzealousness of past enforcement misdeeds cloud your interactions and characterizations of current officers.

Troy

I take it you've met Jerry Hearn in the past! haha

Why did you have to mention that name???? Brings back bad memories!

Wayne

It doesn't seem as bad as in the old days. Spears has been nice enough but back in the 80's I was stopped in Pinto Canyon by the Brewster county warden at the time, Mr. Cook, I think. At the time I had a permit to collect Coleonyx reticulatus "at any time, by any means." I offered him my permit and he asked if he could search my car. I asked why he wanted to search my car since I had a permit and his answer was, "they (Parks and Wildlife, permit division) can’t give you a permit to break the law." My response was, I got the permit from the same people you work for (Parks and Wildlife) and he said, NO you got it from the permit division and I work for law enforcement. From warden to warden and year to year, you never know what they think is legal or what they are going to enforce. One warden stopped me and found a pistol in my car along with a spotlight. He threatened to file on me for intent to spotlight and poach deer.
In a post earlier this year, someone was stopped by the sheriff in Sanderson and ticketed for driving too slow or something like that, what ever happened with that?
Later
Rick

Rick, I can tell you what happened with that. The ticket was dismissed by the Judge in Sanderson. The reasoning behind the ticket was LE was not happy with things that were posted on this very forum,and then some, and they were going to see to it that things would become as difficult as possible as a result of those postings. The ticket was actually for "driving on the unimproved shoulder of the road in a non-emergency."

Wayne

Troy,

As I read your email traffic with TPW (I have it somewhere-I’ll have to dig it up), I recall I was left with the impression that TPW did not really render an opinion on road cruising, or the deliberate systematic use of a vehicle at night to locate reptiles on the roadway which is legal in some other states. Instead, because of the examples that were used, like finding a snake on the road while driving home from a barbecue (or something like that), they rendered an opinion only on a vehicle’s incidental use. Even Cervantes told me I could pick up snakes on the roadway as long as I was driving from cut to cut and he saw me walking my ass off! Can you clarify? Thanks.

Robert

I continued the correspondence earlier this spring. Most of it is a repeat of the first round, but I very clearly defined road-cruising when I asked:

"Please advise (again) regarding the status of "road cruising" (i.e.driving slowly down a roadway at night, pulling off the road safely, waiting for traffic - if any - to clear before getting out to collect and/or observe a reptile or amphibian that had previously been spotted in the car's headlights or by use of a spotlight - noting that the reptile/amphibian may or may not be on the pavement itself, but could be on the gravel shoulder or on an exposed road cut) in the Texas. Will TPWD consider it legal to do what I describe above or not? "

Troy Hibbitts 5/5/05 - email to Major Steve Whiteaker

His reply was:

"Mr. HIbbitts, as indicated in our emails last year, we will allow a legally licensed collector to pull off of the roadway and walk over to pick up a specimen from the roadway. Your definition of "road cruising" is correct EXCEPT where you mention the use of a spotlight. Shining a light on the cuts that you are parked and/or driving slowly by is OK, however, shining a spotlight across the roadway or down the roadway is prohibited. "

So, I think it is pretty clear that (as you put it) "the systematic use of a vehicle to hunt snakes" is now considered legal in Texas. At least until someone else gets put in charge of LE and changes their minds. Of course, I have an answer to that conundrum already ready to fire at the TPWD Board of Directors . . .

Of a further note: Cervantes is gone from Terrell County. He was the last of the hard-nosed LE officers in the Trans-Pecos.

And a final note: I'm pretty sure that there is no TPWD code that says anything at all about the use of spotlights to hunt non-game. If anything, the restriction against spotlights is almost certainly traffic code.

Troy

That's much better. Yeah, I found out about Cervantes this year when I was in Sanderson. He and I met a few times, but he never made me "squeal like a pig" since I'm primarily a walker. Local LE did make me pay this time. For the first time in all the years I've been hunting Sanderson, I was told I had to have lights illuminating my vehicle (hazard or parking lights) while it was parked off the roadway. Also, for the first time in all the years of hunting Sanderson, I got a speeding ticket through town - on the last night! Seems like I had my head up my ass thinking hard about where I was put eight alterna and didn't notice the speed breaks east of town. What are they? 65...45...30? I didn't notice the 30 until it was too late. Actually, I ran over a few cats and the bumps jarred me back to my senses

RP

1) Is a hunting license still required? Yes, if your intention is to take, kill, capture, or trap the critter in question. I was informed by the Captain Warden based out of Midland that since there is no timeframe stipulated for "capture", possession of ANY length of time... even while moving a live snake to the side of a high traffic roadbed (for the purpose of sparing it an untimely death under the tread of a passing vehicle) would require the possession of a hunting license. The same goes for moving or posing a snake for the purpose of photography. He didn't explicitly say they'd cite someone for moving snakes off the road without a license, just that the wording for the regs would allow for it if the issue were pressed.

3) Is road hunting permitted? I seem to get the green light from the wardens on this one, but the Terrell County Sherriff I talked to didn't seem to care for the idea. I haven't had a chance to talk to him again but I'd like to chat with him next time I'm down there...just to get some clarification.

4) What restrictions apply to spotlight use? The Terrell County Sherriff had issues with this subject too... told me that if I were to spotlight that I would have to have BOTH tires off the roadbed... no driving on the shoulder. Of course throughout west Texas offroad means a trip to the tire shop for Mesquite thorn repairs.

5) Is it legal to collect along the highway and road cuts within "Big Bend Ranch State Park" and "Black Gap WMA"? My understanding is similar to Troy's... the jurisdiction for the roadbed does not fall under the park or wildlife management area. I was also informed that jurisdiction for the parks and management areas doesn't begin until the right-of-way fence is reached. Can anyone clarify?

All in all I've found law enforcement to be very helpful when fielding questions regarding herping activities... I just wish everyone was on the same page so things weren't so confusing and there weren't so many gray areas. I've always tried to abide by the laws, but sometimes still get the feeling that although I've been given the greenlight by one law enforcement official, that I might be cited by another for doing what the first one said was OK. It's always made me a little uneasy. I've always done best by introducing myself to the local warden, informing him of my impending activities, and asking for his understanding of the regs... that way I don't get caught off guard.

Damon that last paragraph is particularly good idea/information for anyone looking to pick up information from a FAQ page.

Thanks

>>All in all I've found law enforcement to be very helpful when fielding questions regarding herping activities... I just wish everyone was on the same page so things weren't so confusing and there weren't so many gray areas. I've always tried to abide by the laws, but sometimes still get the feeling that although I've been given the greenlight by one law enforcement official, that I might be cited by another for doing what the first one said was OK. It's always made me a little uneasy. I've always done best by introducing myself to the local warden, informing him of my impending activities, and asking for his understanding of the regs... that way I don't get caught off guard.

I strongly support you put the FAQ together. It is tought to be legal as definitions change and the word on the street is not always to be trusted. I strongly concur with the idea of letting the local game warden know what you are up to. A great thing to have in the FAQ would be the names and addresses of who to contact in the popular collecting areas. Thanks for doing this! --Henry W.

>>Damon that last paragraph is particularly good idea/information for anyone looking to pick up information from a FAQ page.
>>

Joe,

Any chance we could get someone TPWD to take a look at the answers on the FAQ website and comment?
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

I doubt we could "pin them down" as they tend to err on the side of caution, which is probably how the FAQ will have to be worded, so in that respect, who should we contact? Is John Herron no longer with the dept?

Forky

I would be very careful with my wording . . . I expect that David Sinclair's (director of LE) word would carry the most weight, but it took me 4 emails to "pin" him down (and Game Wardens I've talked to said that I did a better job of "pinning" him down than they had been able to! LOL). My bet to get a word in (for an Alterna Page FAQ) would be Major Steve Whiteaker, regional Director who oversees LE in the Trans-Pecos. He is more or less pro-snake hunter (ask JasonP).

John Herron was director of Wildlife Diversity - not the person to ask in the first place - and he he now works for the Nature Conservancy.

Troy

A couple of points:

It was my understanding (from EricT) that the Terrell Co sherrif said that it was illegal to drive on the improved shoulder (which it is, but that is something that virtually every Texan I know does when passed by another vehicle) and that a herper spotlighting had 2 choices - drive off the road, or drive in the lane of traffic. There is no minimum speed posted there, so it seems to me that you could just drive in the lane of traffic - which is what I do anyway, most of the time, pulling off only when I have head lights in my rearview mirror. Of course, I'm not hunting Sanderson much anymore . . .

Also, where there are no fences (like River Road or Black Gap) the right of way is measured from the center of the road. I don't know the exact number of feet, but it is safe to assume that the area affected by road graders, mowers, etc, is in the right of way.

Troy

There is no minimum speed posted there, so it seems to me that you could just drive in the lane of traffic

Keep in mind that there is the subjective concept of "driving slow enough to impede the normal flow of traffic," which I think is a ticketable offense under DPS code. I suppose that is all in the eye of the particular LE beholder at the time. How slow is too slow?
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Sure, if you are impeding traffic . . . also, why don't people get pulled over for pulling off the road and letting cars pull by on the highway, but the officers (sheriff's office, not TPWD) in Sanderson are apparently giving warnings and at least one ticket for driving the shoulder?

One would think that in a dying town like Sanderson, a financial incentive might ease things . . . "Dear City of Sanderson, I used to come look for snakes, spend X gazillion dollars at your hotels, restaraunts, and convenience stores . . . last year, your local officers (sheriff's, whatever) made snake collecting in your area unpleasant by pulling me over repeatedly for doing what is considered legal in other areas" [describe activities]. "Next year, I will be taking my business elsewhere".

Of course, I did that long ago . . . the Davis/Alpine are lots more fun to hunt than boring old Sanderson anytime. LOL

Troy

"Of course, I did that long ago . . . the Davis/Alpine are lots more fun to hunt than boring old Sanderson anytime. LOL"

yeah... if you like catching brown snakes. LOL

...and true,too. Ryolite sucks...limestone rocks!

Viva Sanderson.

Sanderson produces too high a percentage of Dark muddy blairs for my tastes . . . if you want me to go with a Limestone area, I have to give my vote to 277 (as much as I hate hunting there) since of the animals I've found there (6 live, 1 DOR) all but 1 were light animals and the one darky was a charcoal alterna with no orange. I rate the animals I've found there:

10 light alterna, black head
9 light alterna, black head
9 light blairs, black head
8 dark alterna, black head
7 light alterna, orange slits
5 light blairs, middling orange
5 light blairs (DOR) middling orange

average = 7.6

At your pet locale Sanderson, I've managed 6 live and 1 DOR and only 2 were light. I rate my Sandersons as:

10 light alterna, no alternates
9 dark blairs, screaming orange
7 black alterna, orange slits
7 light intermediate (DOR)
4 medium blairs, muddy orange
4 dark blairs, middling orange
2 dark blairs, heavily black-speckled orange

avg 6.1

Now if I toss my Davis/Alpines in:

9 super-speckled light alterna, bright orange slits
9 light alterna, triples
8 light alterna, black dots for alternates
8 med alterna, completely broken pattern (DOR)
8 light speckle neck alterna, triples, orange slits
8 light alterna, specke neck, orange slits (DOR)
7 light alterna, no orange
7 buckskin alterna, bright orange spots
5 buckskin alterna, very clean
5 dark alterna, orange slits

Avg = 7.4

By my ratings, an ugly alterna always tops an ugly blairs. Nothing (IMHO) is uglier than a dark blairs with brown splotches heavily invaded by black.

Troy

Ah... it's all personal preference.

While I'd agree with your assessment of 277 and your (LOL) Terrell county catches, I'd say the ratings on the Jeff Davis and north Brewster snakes is a little excessive. Just me though.

yeah, well I give snake bonus points for speckling, broken up patterns, irregular bands . . . to me, those are the most important characteristics in an alterna - the busier, the better. The more regular the pattern, the more boring it is to me.

Troy

this year, Marla, Dad, and I caught 8 alterna in the Mts (4 Davis, 4 Alpines) and of those only 2 were brownish at all.

The other draw for the Davis is that you always find snakes on cuts . . . lots of lepidus, lots of bairdi, good numbers of Tantilla cucullata, etc. A good night on Limestone cuts is 2-3 snakes . . . a good night in the Mts is a dozen or more snakes, and one night Dad & I found over 20 (2 were alterna, too) around Alpine.

Not Brown Davis:
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=45&pos=4

Not Brown Alpine:
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=45&pos=1

Of course you can stick with Sanderson and catch muddy brownish orange dark blairs that you have to turn loose . . .

Troy

"Of course you can stick with Sanderson and catch muddy brownish orange dark blairs that you have to turn loose . . ."

Are you talking about that big male you found the night you found the splendida? You turned him loose?

I never had to turn anything loose. Mine were all pretty. LOL
Don't make me post pictures.

All joking aside, I like all alterna. I have seen some outstanding animals from the Davis and the vicinity of Alpine. Most of them I think I'd be content to photograph though. It's just personal preference.

It is fun to see the bairds and leps, I just like limestone better...

That male I caught then was like my 13th alterna . . . at 42 now, I wouldn't have kept him. And I don't think its ethical to turn that snake loose now, after he's been in captivity for 11 years.

One thing that sours me on hunting limestone is living next to 277. I hate that road and its cuts. This year, I only found 1 snake on cuts on 277, and that was an emoryi in Sutton Co in August. Of course, it got dry in a big hurry here, and I missed the Memorial Day moisture (being in SC). Even so, last year was pretty good for 277, and the best I did was a 2 snake on cuts night. In fact, my best "on cuts" night on 277 has been 3 snakes (1 bairdi, 2 alterna) - my best on cuts night for Terrell Co (Sanderson/Sheffied) has also been 3 snakes (1 suboc, 1 hypsiglena, 1 alterna) . . . a 3 snake on cuts night is my norm for hunting the Davis or Alpine, not the exception. This year, I had a 2 alterna, 2 lepidus night; a 2 alterna, 1 lepidus, 1 bullsnake night; a 4 lepidus night; a bairdi, 3 lepidus, alterna night; a 2 bairdi, 1 cucullata, 1 lepidus night; a alterna, hypsiglena, cucullata night; etc. My point? When conditions are decent, the Davis/Alpine area blows a decent night in the east away, in terms of numbers, diversity, and numbers of "glamour" snakes. There's just no where on the Stockton/Edwards Plateau where you turn up as many snakes.

Troy

Troy,
I understand what you said in your last post about YOU not finding many snakes in the limestone-Stockton-Edwards plateau areas, but my knack or luck at finding numbers of snakes in the East, at least in Terrell-Val Verde counties say otherwise. If the East counties have had any recent rains, I tend to see at least 4-5 or snakes on ANY dark, half-way decent temperature nights out there. For example, on the trip that Brad Anderson & I just went on in late August-early September, we only hunted the "East" 2 complete nights & on 9-2-05, found a total of 13 snakes that night, mostly diamondbacks, a blacktail rattler, a bullsnake, night snake & a trans-pecos ratsnake. This was all found on roads & cuts before 1am. Then, the next night, on 9-3-05, again in the same areas, a total of 8 snakes, same time frames, some diamondbacks, 1 coachwhip, 1- whipsnake, 1 - greatplains ratsnake & 1-graybanded kingsnake. While I have had nights with seeing 1-2 or no snakes, more often than not, I see several snakes, so I guess its luck & timing, as well as having that decent night anywhere in alterna range to see snakes....JF

John,
You can see a few snakes in the East, but just for an example of what Troy is talking about, my last three nights in Brewster county I've seen over 110 snakes compromising 20 species with 5 Lampropeltis in the mix. Two of those nights I packed it in at 11PM, and one of those nights was in October.

While your point is well taken, I don't think that you can argue the numbers game. West wins out nearly everytime unless you've got a fluke night.

If you want to talk numbers of good looking alterna alone, I'll take 277 first, then Sanderson, then the Davis / Alpine area, but as Damon pointed out that is purely subjective and opinionated so not really much to argue there.

Forky

Joe,
I will not dispute the numbers scenario, I've been to the West as well and it can really produce the numbers, I agree. I was merely ribbing Troy about his comment of "Boring".....JF

Of course there's a HUGE bias for me, but Sanderson would in my mind overwhelm 277 just for the variety issue alone. The only thing that doesn't show up in Sanderson that shows up on 277 is black-headed snakes. There are a lot of things that show up in Sanderson that 277 can't touch. Looking at larger sample sizes I think there's no real argument for higher numbers of nicer (brighter or more attractive) traditional morphologies in either spot.

As far as numbers go, the west certainly has more. My per night average in Sanderson is much better that 2-3 snakes (although by the wording is seems as though Troy was referring to "on cut" snakes. I still seem to recall doing better than 2-3 snakes/night on cuts, but not much. Regardless, I had several nights in the high forties and one night in the low fifeties out west. It was easy to stay awake that's for sure.

As I get older, I find that high diversity/high number nights are more fun, but the transitional morphologies of alterna in the western extents of Edwards' limestone in my mind outweigh the darker and less diversified patterns in the Davis and around Alpine. I still like looking for them ANYWHERE, and I like them all, but have more "wow" moments with some of the snakes I see from east and southeast of the Davis.

at the risk of sounding argumentative, that is more subjective opinion, and while that is what floats your boat, that's cool but you can't speak for everyone.

Forks

...not trying to speak for everyone, just voicing a friendly opinion. All of us have places we favor and Sanderson is one of mine. I have a real bias toward that area as I suspect does anyone for anywhere they spend or spent so much time.

and don't get me wrong, I'd jump up and down and shout out loud if I caught either of them . . .

but . . .

a) they look like nice snakes from anywhere on the Stockton or western Edwards Plateau

b) they don't have any sort of "busy-ness"

Add to that the number of darky blairs (I've got photos of the first 20 or so you caught at Sanderson, and better than half were dark blairs, with only a couple with bright orange) from the area . . . with only a handful of things even remotely busy (what I consider "busy" snakes from Sanderson perhaps = 10 that I've seen) . . .

and . . . well, if you've got to be a "plain" snake, better to have a black head . . .

and finally, since I value busy snakes with irregular patterns, you should be able to quickly see why I value Gaps, Davis, Xmas, Rivers over easts any day.

Troy

Of the first 20 snakes I caught in Sanderson, there were a whopping total of 4 darkies with less than brilliant orange. There were 3 darkies with bright orange, 3 very nice light blairs (one of which was very nice, another was unbelievable), alterna morphs ranging from black to very light... some with very nice orange, and several "busy" snakes reminiscent of BG critters. The variation in the animals I collected as well as those collected by others is extensive and includes some complete jaw-droppers. Don't get me wrong, I have seen some very cool Davis snakes, but most of them are less than impressive... even by the criteria that you give for describing a neat alterna (busy-ness, irregular patterns etc.). The parameters for variation are narrower in the Davis than they are elsewhere. Light phase are rare, the color is usually not particularly remarkeable (and if it is it's usually because it plays on the contrast of a muted background), and the speckling (if present) is typically not extensive enough to render the animal outstanding.

For example:

The last two got my attention... the others I probably wouldn't remember if I saw them again. I didn't cherry pick those photos to make a point either... just a straight series of photos from the alterna page.

The snakes in the transitional western Edwards plateau if remarkable, are so due a whole suite of phenotypes... very light...very dark...no orange...some orange... lots of orange... busy... not busy...pumpkin orange...red orange...alternates...no alternates...donuts.

The snakes in the Davis if remarkeable, are so due to their novelty. The colors are typically not that bright so they need to be aberrant, exceptionally speckled, or unique in some other way to be appealing to most folks. Unfortunately, most specimens are not that way.

Citing the Galvan snake for an example of Alpine's diversity is like citing one of Sweetman's blairs as an indicator of the general quality of 277 animals. It's an outlier to be sure. Alpine's got some neatly patterned critters and the ocassional colored animal. The diversity seems to be higher there but the color is on average a bit lackluster.

You do get neat snakes in the west... and a GREAT west snake is truly remarkeable, but nights filled with cuculata and brown bairdii doesn't make what you're likely to find on those igneous cuts any more brilliant or impressive.

(I should add a little disclaimer that I like finding all snakes and I don't value any one over another. I like Davis bairdii and cuculata as much as any other snake out there... I just can't resist stirring your pot and (in some ways) playing Devil's advocate).

same goes for me on 277, except I have yet to find anything that even approaches a darkie on 277. Of the 40 plus animals my brothers, nephews, and I found from Carruthers to north of Loma alta only one was dark, and it was a gun-metal alterna morph.
Only a couple had any webbing at all in the orange, many had out of this world neon orange, and a dozen or more had black caps.

In Sanderson I'm batting 25% darkies with a much smaller sample.

As I'd take all but one or two of the Buzz-davis snakes (that I photo-ed) over any of the snakes you caught at Sanderson in a heatbeat - and I mean over your nicest light blairs.

In particular, IMHO, the last two are so much nicer, cooler, and neater animals than any blairs I've seen save possibly some gap/Xmas snakes that there is no comparison. However pretty a nice light blairs can be, you can get them anywhere from Sanderson to Brackettville (and if Joe is right, into Real Co LOL). You can only get the really cool Davis phenotypes there.

Furthermore, I just pulled out pix of your first 20 Sandersons (or at least the 20 snakes I have photos of in my album) and I see:

4 light blairs - the 2 east snakes I rate 10 and 9, the west one a high 7/low 8 due to less than spectacular orange but with a decent pattern, the 16 mile a low 7, high 6 due to lackluster orange.

9 dark blairs (counting the one you and MT let go) and of those, only the snake you guys released rates better than a 7 to me . . . MT/your 9 mi = 8, nicest east = 7, busy snake ups to a 7 with a cool pattern, the others go 5, 5, 4, 3 - the west female I rate a 5/4 also.

2 light alternas = W = 8/9, E = 7

5 dark alternas . . . no I'll admit that lots of people rave over the 2 9 milers that turned black . . . but I'm not a big fan of either beast - they are 8 and 7 in my book. The one you and BF caught together I rate a solid 5/6 . . . the Downie Draw animal a 5, the adult 16 mi female a 4/5 and the little 16 mi female a 7/8 (I think its every bit as nice, if not nicer than the two 9 mile alternas).

Of those snakes, only 1(!) snake would I consider to have any significant "western" influence (the dark, dull-but-busy east female) while one 9 mi (the MT snake) and one 16 mi (blairs) has any other characters that cause them to stand out as "not-typical-of-Edwards/Stockton-plateau" animals). My biggest knock against Sanderson isn't that it doesn't produce SOME nice snakes, but rather that most are very typical alterna - not much different from Langtry, Juno, 277, etc.

And we haven't even mentioned the remaining 46 Sanderson snakes I have shots of in my album . . . of which I only see 6 snakes with ANY speckling at all, and 3 of those have it just between the first and 2nd primary (2x Fraser, 1x Fankhauser). Although the remaining 3 snakes (Fraser, Ross, Doherty) I rate among the best Sanderson has ever produced - right up there with your ultra-bright blairs and my alternate-less west alterna. However, 5 or 6 of the dark blairs I have shots of are among the ugliest alterna I've ever seen anywhere!

One final note - he old scans of the Buzz/Davis snakes don't do them justice - the new scans I sent Joe recently do a much better job of displaying those animals.

Troy

Ok, there are no "blairs" in the Davis but otherwise, the amount of busy-ness and irregularness of banding, orange blotches, broken blotches, completely speckled animals, animals ranging from light to black, buckskin to gray, etc . . . you get down to Alpine, you pick up blairs, snakes like the Galvan super-long-nuchal snake from west of town, blairs with triples, etc. I'd say that even without adding Alpine to the mix, the Davis produces greater diversity than Sanderson by a long shot (just no blairs).

When you figure Alpine, well, this is one of the most diverse locales in the bend - I'd rate it right up with the Xmas for diversity in color and pattern, followed by the Gap, then the Davis, the River, then Sanderson in terms of diversity.

At Sanderson, your talking 75% or more of the snakes being "typical" eastern snakes - either Blairs or Alterna . . . with maybe 25% showing some of the more diverse pattern irregularities from the west. How many with "busy-ness" did you find there? From the pix you sent me years ago, I see 1, but maybe you've found more since then that I don't know about.

Troy

what is more boring . . .

a night where you find 1 suboc on a cut after hunting until 4 am ( a handful of DORs, a couple of baby atrox, etc, on the road)

or

a night where you see 1 Tantilla cucullata, 2 bairdi, and a lepidus on cuts before midnight?

(I tried to pick comparable relatively dry, unproductive nights here, not to compare apples to oranges)

My point is, I just see about 2x the number of snakes on cuts (and usually lots more on the road) in the Davis than I do anywhere in the Limestone country to the east.

Troy

1) I mean #s on cuts, not just absolute numbers seen

and

2) I will put my 18 years of data (every single snake encountered recorded in field journals) up and I'm confindent that it will show that on average, you find double the number of snakes (period) in the west than in the east on any given night.

Troy

past 20 ? LOL ! I mean as to what Troy has said in western localities versus eastern numbers/species. I also have wondered as to the finds of anywheres double or even triple of hunters out in the Sanderson and approx. area oppose to west almost if not every year if ever down the road it would be detrimental of alterna ? I know the regaling of debatable theories of this not happening but in terms of being in assumption and speculative ( something that you know I hate to do ), I just wonder...........
-----
I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

This is basically what I told the Sheriff and he went apeshi*. I don't think that mentality floats in Sanderson, and quite unfortunately for both parties involved.

Wayne

When you've been pulled over is not the place to argue politics . . . finer legal details, maybe - if you're polite and the officer seems receptive to discussion . . . but not the politics of money.

Troy

of the beholder, I know one prominent herper from East Texas who more than once told me that he enjoyed finding alterna, but that West Texas bored him, he would always want to hole up in Del Rio, since it had a movie theater & a mall, it kept him entertained, lol. I find ALL of the Chihuahauan desert to be not boring, as it varies from East to West in patterns, colors, etc. on reptiles, plant and tree species, elevation, etc... And you called Sanderson boring? Shame on you Troy, LOL! J/T Maybe if it had a few traffic lights, a mall & movie place, you would like it more Troy? .....

Where's Hollister been? LOL
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Steve W.

No, the reason I find Sanderson boring when compared to the Davis (or anywhere else in the bend) is that you find about half the number of snakes there, and I HATE white road cuts when compared to colorful igneous ones. There's a rather tedious monotony to those white cuts that just makes my eyes bleary by the end of the night.

Of course, you'd have to go hunt some of those other areas for more than a night here or there, and venture away from the nurturing bosom of Sanderson and Langtry once and a while . . .

Troy

Troy, knock it off!!! To each his own. I will have to say I am in agreement with JF and Damon. Sanderson has always been good to me and is a kick ass place to collect, That is if LE is not on your ass. You like the farther West stuff and "we" like further East. Damn, I can tell snake season is over with all of this nit pickin going on. GEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wayne

We all know that groups of guys will try to get away with having one fellow buy a license while the rest are "Just tagging along" or "Not collecting. Just photographing." But what about your wife and son who really don't keep snakes?

I always get Ginger a license because she walks the cuts as well as road cruising. She doesn't keep snakes and generally we don't take anything anyway. Still, I feel that it's our obligation.

I know many wives who really do go along for company. Since they do not catch the snakes, do they need a license? I'll bet they do!

Terry Vandeventer

if you and your wife go fishing and she does not fish at all, yet you have in your posession two fishing poles she will probably get a ticket, as you do not have enough lisences to cover the number of poles you have. thus i would assume she would also get a ticket she is with you and not actively collecting, but then again it is also up to the GW's discression.

My understanding is that all have to have a license. I know it is really a bit absurd when your mom (for example) is alseep in the back seat . . .

Troy

Roy Engeldorf had told me that not everyone in the car needed a license, but I disagreed with him. I believe that everyone in the vehicle needs a permit. A possible exception would be under age kids. In Mississippi and in many states, youths under a certain age (usually 16) don't have to purchase hunting and fishing licenses.

Cheers,

Terry

As you may or may not know, anyone born in Texas after a certain date must have a Hunter Education Certificate before they can purchase a hunting permit.

All that means is, you can't just run out and grab the License at the last minute for those young'ns. Folks will need to plan in advance.

Forks

Joe,
My son was down with me this year. The cost of his permit was $6.00 because he was not yet 17 years old at the time. He has taken the hunters education course here in N.J. but they never even asked the question or to see his certificate.
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Steve W.

as an out of stater you are purchasing a "non-game" permit.

for a resident there is no distinction between non-game and game license. You have to have a valid Texas "hunting license" and not a "non-game" permit.

Can someone else backup or refute this for us?

Forks

You probably right on that. After all, i've been purchasing a license in texas for many more years than i've had my N.J. license.
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Steve W.

Joe,

the retail stores are not required to ask for hunter safety. it is up to you to have proof of hunter safety on your person while hunting. TX does honor other state's hunter safety courses, too.

Troy

Well, the retailers don't check for hunter safety . . . so, you can buy the license, but if the warden asks for hunter safety and you don't have it, you can be ticketed. However, you get a 2 month period after the ticket to take hunter safety and the ticket will be dismissed (at least that's what happened to a friend of mine). Of course, I don't think I've ever heard of a game warden asking for hunter safety for a snake hunter . . . one Alpine Snake hunter that I know doesn't have it, the warden knows he doesn't have it, and he's never been ticketed . . . FWIW

Troy

A couple of years ago, my girlfriend and her 14 year old son wanted to go out with me to see somes snakes one night. Neither of them had a hunting license and since it was already late in the month of August, I didn't see much sense in buying them a license that would expire within days. We honestly only wanted to observe animals and had no intention of collecting anything.

As I was gassing up my vehicle in Alpine, the local GM, Ray Spears, pulled in to fuel his truck. I explained the situation to him and asked if they needed a license. His response:"No problem. As long as you've made me aware of your intentions beforehand, I don't have a problem with you taking the GF and her son to look at snakes."

Of course, if I hadn't informed him ahead of time and he had stopped to question us, it might have seemed a bit suspicious.

I have spoken with Ray, at length, about snake hunting and he seems to be very receptive to the idea of snake hunters in the area. He told me that he is enjoying learning about snakes from all of the snake hunters he meets and that, so far, everyone he has approached has been in compliance with the law.

As we all know, every game warden is different, so I would suggest playing it safe and purchasing a license for any passengers who might "appear" to be involved in snake hunting.

That shoulda been the "local GW", not GM.

>>1) Is a hunting license still required?

Everyone has answered for TX, but I think a clarification of the NM and Mexico rules would be warranted.

>>2) Are any special permits or stamps required?
>>3) Is road hunting permitted?

Again, this appears to have been cleared up for TX. However, I think it would be worth posting something about the TXDOT rules re: driving on shoulder, driving too slow, etc.

What about NM and Mexico (does anyone know about south of the border other than you have to watch for trucks without headlights, cows and burros?). I have roadhunted in Mexico taking photos for many years. Anyone know if there are any rules about this?

I know NM has protected them but does that mean you can't look and take pictures if you find one? Same question about mexico - you can't collect, but can you look, stop and photograph (we all do, but what are the legalities?).

>>4) What restrictions apply to spotlight use?

I read Troy's posts and am unclear about the shining a light from your vehicle as a TXDOT matter, but can you hunt using artificial lights?

I was ticketed last year by the USFWS for "using artificial light to locate wildlife" when looking at a Spotted Chorus Frog in a roadside ditch on a road that bounded a NWR. The fine was $200. Would this apply to Big Bend/Black Gap/Carlsbad Caverns/Guadualupe Mts boundary roads?

>>5) Is it legal to collect along the highway and road cuts within "Big Bend Ranch State Park" and "Black Gap WMA"?

See previous comments.

Also, should we have questions about -

- can I legally sell CB offspring in Texas?
- can I legally sell CB offspring in my home state?

- of course, you will have to have the "my alterna won't eat question" answered to probably.

and my favorite alterna FAQ -

- How long, on average, does it take someone to find an alterna? We don't seem to have good enough data for this question, unfortunately. Perhaps a survey (if we could get people to participate) might be warranted.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

>>I was ticketed last year by the USFWS for "using artificial light to locate wildlife" when looking at a Spotted Chorus Frog in a roadside ditch on a road that bounded a NWR. The fine was $200. Would this apply to Big Bend/Black Gap/Carlsbad Caverns/Guadualupe Mts boundary roads?

When confronted by anyone of authority including all peace officers, I am a "yes sir, no sir" type of guy, however, I'm pretty sure I would have been steamed had I found myself in this situation. As you know, the road is state property as is the easement (I think we've had enough LE admit to this).

Did you fight this ticket?

Forky

When confronted by anyone of authority including all peace officers, I am a "yes sir, no sir" type of guy, however, I'm pretty sure I would have been steamed had I found myself in this situation. As you know, the road is state property as is the easement (I think we've had enough LE admit to this).

There were four of us there that night, in two different vehicles. We weren't together, in fact, the other two had just stopped to talk when they saw us walking along the road and figured we were herpers as well.
The guy who pulled us over was unbelieveable. I am also a "Yes, sir - No, sir" guy. The LE guys are just doing their job. But this guy was a dick. He actually threatened to pull his gun on us (4 cooperative guys in T-shirts, shorts and sandals - obviously unarmed) and made us stand at the front of our vehicle with our hands "in plain sight". It was a surreal experience.

>>Did you fight this ticket?

Four of us got ticketed. My buddy lives in Little Rock and the ticket was in Brownsville, so he had to pay. I scheduled a court date, but had to teach the day the picked, so I got a postponement. They gave me another date later in the summer, and that turned out to be the only time I had available to go to Chiapas. So I was left with the choice of going to Chiapas or staying home and fighting the ticket in Brownsville. Obviously Chiapas won out.

The other two guys were from OK, and they were able to get the case transferred to a court in OK (I couldn't do that within TX). They got their fines reduced to $25, but they still had to pay the ticket.

Live and learn. Don't take pictures of frogs on the PUBLIC road that leads into Laguna Atascosa NWR at night.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

"I read Troy's posts and am unclear about the shining a light from your vehicle as a TXDOT matter, but can you hunt using artificial lights? "

You can hunt nongame using lights - I can legally hunt hogs, racoons, rabbits, coyotes, hogs, etc, using a spotlight. The same is true for snakes . . .

"I was ticketed last year by the USFWS for "using artificial light to locate wildlife" when looking at a Spotted Chorus Frog in a roadside ditch on a road that bounded a NWR. The fine was $200. Would this apply to Big Bend/Black Gap/Carlsbad Caverns/Guadualupe Mts boundary roads? "

You were in a NWR - I don't know the details of their regs. Black Gap is a state WMA that is closed to herping . . . but the road (fm 2627) is not part of the WMA . . . same holds true for the two state parks BBRSP and DMSP - the highway right of ways are not part of hte parks. Big Bend, Carlsbad, and Guadalupe Mts are all National Parks, and the roads in them are Park Roads and thus off limits to herping. With the history of these parks and herping, I wouldn't even "observe" wild-herplife within them without written permission.

">>5) Is it legal to collect along the highway and road cuts within "Big Bend Ranch State Park" and "Black Gap WMA"?

See previous comments. "

According to Officer Ray Spears, it is.

"Also, should we have questions about -

- can I legally sell CB offspring in Texas? "

Yes, it is.

"- can I legally sell CB offspring in my home state?"

The only state of question would be NM - unless you live in a state which regulates "exotics".

Troy

>>You can hunt nongame using lights - I can legally hunt hogs, racoons, rabbits, coyotes, hogs, etc, using a spotlight. The same is true for snakes . . .

Reading the "Outdoor Annual" seems to indicate otherwise, except on private property. However, it also says the same about hunting from a road. The problem as I see it is that back when most states' hunting regs were written, I don't think anyone could fathom a sane person going out to catch snakes.

>>- can I legally sell CB offspring in Texas? "
>>
>>Yes, it is.

But technically, you need a permit--see the "cute" FAQ question concerning selling banded geckos here:

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/faq/huntwild/nongame_permits.phtml

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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Alterna are not on the permit list. I can't remember all the non-game species for which a permit is required, but alterna is not one of them. Permits are required to sell:

rattlesnakes
box turtles
some common lizards that the guy in El Paso sells in large numbers (Uta, Round-tailed Horneds, Banded Geckos, etc)
prairie dogs

I consulted on the writing of the nongame dealer/seller regs several years ago, and the one thing I remember was that the animals that I breed/keep are not on the list.

Troy

>>Alterna are not on the permit list. I can't remember all the non-game species for which a permit is required, but alterna is not one of them. Permits are required to sell:

The way the page reads, the animals on the list are subject to a 25-specimen limit (in the aggregate, which appears to mean my total combined number of box turtles and geckos can't exceed 25--I'm nowhere even close!); but animals NOT on the list still require a permit if you plan to sell/breed them:

"Who needs a non-game permit?
Anyone in possession of more than 25 listed animals in the aggregate. See the non-game regulations for more details.

Anyone collecting animals from the wild or captive-breeding them for commercial purposes, that is, for sale or trade of the animals, dead or alive. This also applies to the offspring of captive adults."

The second paragraph omits the word "listed," but maybe that's implied.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

You only need a permit to sell the listed animals. The FAQ page may be confusingly written, but I have seen the code (considering I was on two different committees that advised TPWD about that code) and the code says (essentially) that you must have a permit to sell or deal in the affected/listed species ONLY.

Funny how this has gotten all confused in just a couple of years (we did this revision about 3 years ago). Not funny ha-ha, either.

Troy

Last year I called TPWD and left a message telling them I lived in CA and wanted to bring some captive born alterna out to sell while I was in TX snakehunting.
A guy called back and actually said his name and left a message on my machine telling me exactly what Troy said, that alterna was not on the list and you could sell them in TX without any license.

From the same web page you cite:

Affected Species

Frogs and Toads
Couch's spadefoot (Scaphious couchi)
Plains spadefoot (Scaphious bombifrons)
Western green toad (Bufo debilis insidior))
Texas toad (Bufo speciosus)
Bull frog (Rana catesbeiana)

Salamanders
Barred tiger ( Ambystoma tigrinum mavortium)

Turtles
Desert (western) box (Terrapene ornate luteola )
Ornate Box turtle (Terrapene ornate ornate)
Three-toed (Eastern) box (Terrapene carolina triunguis)
Mississippi map (Graptemys pseuogeographica kahnii)
Ouachita map (Graptemys pseudogeographica ouachitensis)
Sabine map (Graptemys pseudogeographica sabinensis)
Texas map turtle (Graptemys versa)
Western chicken turtle (Deirochelys reticlaria miaria)
Red-eared slider (Trachemys scripta elegans)
Midland smooth softshell (Alpalone muticus muticus)
Texas spiny softshell (Apalone spiniferus emoryi)
Guadalupe spiny softshell(Apalone spiniferus guadalupensis)
Western spiny softshell (Apalone spiniferus hartwegi)
Pallid spiny softshell (Apalone spiniferus pallidus)
Metter's river cooter (Psuedemys concinna metteri)
Texas river cooter (Pseudomys texana)
Western painted turtle (Chrysemys picta belli)
Southern painted turtle (Chrysemys picta dorsalis)
Common snapping turtle (Chelydra serpentina serpentina)
Texas diamondback terrapin (Malaclemys terrapin littoralis)

Lizards
Texas banded gecko (Coleonyx brevis)
Southwestern earless (Cosphosaurus texanus scitulus)
Round-tail horned lizard (Phrynosoma modestum)
Marbled whiptail (Cnemidophorus marmoratus)

Snakes
Plains garter (Thamnophis radix haydenii)
Prairie ring-neck (Diadophis punctatus arnyi)
Western diamondback rattlesnake (Crotalus atrox)
Prairie rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis viridis)
Mottled rock rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus lepidus)
Banded rock rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus klauberi)
Northern black-tail rattlesnake (Crotalus molossus)
Western massasauga (Sistrurus catenatus tergeminus)
Desert massasauga (Sistrurus catenatus edwardsii)
Pygmy rattlesnake (Sistrurus miliarius)

Mammals
Black-tailed jack rabbit (Lepus californicus)
Black-tailed prairie dog (Cynomys ludovicianus)

>>"I was ticketed last year by the USFWS for "using artificial light to locate wildlife" when looking at a Spotted Chorus Frog in a roadside ditch on a road that bounded a NWR. The fine was $200. Would this apply to Big Bend/Black Gap/Carlsbad Caverns/Guadualupe Mts boundary roads? "
>>
>>You were in a NWR - I don't know the details of their regs.

While we were techincally ON the refuge (when you looked at a USGS map showing property boundaries) we were actually on a public road that ran along one edge of the refuge (the other side was a plowed field of private land).
The point of revisiting my ticket was to point out that we had no idea the public road was on a refuge right of way (there was no indication of this), we were quite unwittingly on the refuge. I don't know how this could apply here as there are no roads that border BBNP although I'm not sure about GMNP and Carlsbad relative to the roads and edges of the park.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

Great Thread ...

I haven't collected herps since the mid 90's but recently moved to Brewster county. I have been tempted to resume collecting but have avoided it because of ambiquous regs and past negative experiences.

It sounds like things have improved!

Creating a FAQ would really help novices like myself. It would also help us to requlate ourselves so the state doesn't decide to return to the old hardline approach.

I think the answers to the questions should be in a discussion/anecdote format, since there apparently is no black-and-white answer to some of them.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I was pretty sure about the type of responses, and the ambiguity when I posted the questions.

Forks

"ambiguity".

Joe, you gotta stop using these big words. LOL My dictionary is starting to fall apart.
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Steve W.

A suggestion for your very nice offer to post info online on the Texas regs: After reading thru all the posts (and some earlier ones), there are multiple references to actual emails and documents that have been used to aid herpers with a LE officer who may not know the regs. Perhaps these emails/letters could be put in Adobe Acrobat format and made available online for anyone to use. Perhaps even better ones could be obtained by the respective current authorities and included. Maybe they'd do it if they knew they had a group that was really trying as hard as they could to be above board and legal.

Thanks again for doing what you are doing. It is a great help!
Best, Henry W.