Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My pair of pyros ate like champs all summer. They both started refusing meals around Sept. 9th. I am guessing they are ready to be cooled? I have not lowered the temps, they have been the same all summer. Id appreciate any help and opinions, Thank you

2 of my 3 pyros did the exact same thing.
My biggest is still acting like a pig, the one with the red eyebrows,(middle pic)

Are you going to cool the ones that arent eating? Im concerned because it is still warm here and I don't think I can get them to 50 degrees yet.

the two that are fasting are being kept at about 60-65 and the the one that's eating is being kept at normal temps 75-85 and will be cooled down in a few weeks or so.
a few of my adult cals have also shut down like they did last year, most everything else in my collection is still going strong.
how old are your pyros?

insulting way, just so darn out of place.

I live in the middle(north, south) of Pyro range. And there are pyros all around me(directions, east, west, north, south) They are no where near hibernating, they are very active and living lifes processes.

Its the begining of Oct and this signals the start of mass feeding for pyros(wild ones) They will do so for about two months. It also signals the start of changing home ranges or the finding of such. As in, moving from summer homes to winter homes. But it does not signal the start of hibernation. Moving of homes is to avoid hibernation.

So what the heck are your captives doing? hmmmmmmmmmmmm I know, responding to changing temps in your cages. they cannot change from these summer homes(nice and warm choices if they want) to winter homes, nice and warm choices at this time of year and later. The reason is, they are locked in your cages and stuck with your temps. So they have no choice in behavior, instead of finding a more suitable cage, they can only go dormate. The reason is clear, they have no choice. Yes, they are responding to dropping temps, that tells them to move to a more suitable place, but you won't let them.

The problem is, in nature they do have a choice. And they use it.

I do field work, and its just starting to become tolerable, in the summer its too darn hot. Surface temps are still way over 100F, up to 140F or so. I cannot wait until they drop down to something the snakes will use, under 100F. The coming months are going to be lots of fun for me and my partner.

Nope, pyros are not yet hibernating in nature. So why are they in your conditions? Sirs and sirsettes, that is a good question. FR

no offence, my snakes are NOT wild, they do what i let them.

Actually they do what you force them to do. They have no choice.

I just find it odd how people talk of hibernation or brumation, when its right in the middle of their active season. Remember, I said odd. Not bad or worse, just odd.

Hey another odd thing. The temps are dropping and captives snakes are going dormate, is that a surprise? A good question is out there waiting to be asked, but no one is asking it. FR

but I said the temps have not changed. "i find this really silly"???????? Who says that?

as in it's not natural, like Frank said the snakes are doing what they are forced to do.

Think about these things:

1) It's October in San Antonio and cold fronts are starting to come in every week or so. Now is the best time to find kingsnakes on the surface or under AC during the day.

2) Willardi are known to feed and bask next to patches of snow on the ground

3) alterna can be found under a surface rock in late November (I found one).

4) The temps (your temps) have not changed! (that's odd)

5) You never see FAT snakes in the wild - large, muscular and healthy yes, FAT no.

Do snakes NEED to brumate to breed???? Probably not, at least not the 12 to 16 weeks we slam them down for. This may vary depending on duration and severity of cold fronts for various geographic locations.

Our rubbermaids are far from ideal as to giving the snakes a proper range of natural choices.

Can some snakes thrive and breed under these conditions? Sure, but it is odd (as in not natural) behavior.

Forky

A number of breeders go through this same cycle. Are you proposing a better way, suggesting a better way, or doing an infuriating impression of Yoda?
-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

Or mention anything about better or worse. I just stated that I live in the geographic range of Pyros and they are not hibernating at this time. In fact far from it. Why does it have to mean anything about husbandry. It was merely a statement of fact.

I am confused thought, at times you fellas say, in nature this, or that, and at other times, you jump across the creek and say, I tell them what to do. Hmmmmmmmmmmm yup thats odd. Not good or back, just odd.

I am sorry if I offended you, but I thought(am I wrong?) this forum was to discuss this kind of stuff? It is starting to appear, many have inferiority complexes or something, as it was not about good or bad or right or wrong. JUST FRIGGIN DISCUSSION. hahahahahahahahahahahaha dang

On a side note, my field partners and I, commonly discuss all this and that, while we are out in the field. But we do not take any of it as meaningful, that is, until we find out how meaningful it is. FR

completly different from what happens in the snake room.
Do you keep your snakes in your backyard?

Actually a bunch of things, first, why are you so defensive? If your happy with what you do, then all is great. I would think there is absolutely no need to be so defensive, you have shown some really nice animals.

Next, the snakes in your cages are the same snakes in nature, same programs you know. Or do you only care about you?

And yes, there are plenty of snakes in my backyard. I live right between the big hill and the little hill. I am taking the pic from a Tiger rattler, gila site of mine. Unfortunately, there are only a few kingsnake populations around here, but not at my house, about two miles away, in several directions.

I do wonder why your being so defensive, when this is all fun, isn't it?

The really good question is why pyros react to temperature changes faster then most other species. It is a good question, now you can figure it out for yourself, or not. FR

Since pyros react to subtle changes in temperature and the wild pyros are just now starting to get their feed bag on with gusto, because of lower, more favorable temps, I'd venture a guess that even though the keeper doesn't realize it (no offense, just a possibility) the ambient temps in his room are changing and the pyros are reacting like pyros do, by going into conservation mode until conditions are favorable again (damn, long sentence). Now if the keeper puts them down for the season, they will begin feeding with zeal again in the spring when they are brought back up. However, if the keeper starts shooting around the enclosure with a temp gun and and addresses the issue by offering slightly higher and possibly slightly lower temp choices within the cage, they will once again turn on and begin feeding.....whaddya think, close?

Will

....serious! directed of course to noone in particular...dont wanna get censored....

Its-a no brainer.... that mid n southern pyros are up & maximizing their body condition right now...betcha southern zonata r-2....eureka...how about that...a high elev colubrid preparing for dormancy...mebbe building interstitial H20 levels & salt osmolalities too...I shudder w/ the consequence of it all & fail to see how it relates to controled optimal laboratory conditions...but hey whos getting defensive...hahahahahaha...zzzz....
How about a novel approach...try cyber-casting thy pearls w/o the ever-pervasive perjoratives & like Brian ferry sang so well....let the chips fall where they may.

whooaa what this...

.

hopefully I will get some more pics tomorrow. FR

...leaning 2wards the green side

Looks like we were shooting the same snake!

Beers / RxR

Not this! Congrats on the green rat, RXR!
Todd Hughes

...R-U a fast runner...or do you just like those prairie-goats..

whoaaa whats this...

You're a very B-a-a-a-a-ad man!
Todd

I have mentioned my snake room is in my garage. I have a hard time controlling temps as accurately and consistently as I would like...and now the temps are changing and I have to more so monitor things. This is no problem, as it is what I enjoy most about keeping snakes. Attempting to provide them with what they need to be happy and also for my benefit, predictable.
Tom Stevens

I'm only stating that captive snakes act completly different than wild snakes, and your right about one thing this is ALL good fun.

First I have a feeling, that some very longterm captive species, do seem to be less ridgit then snakes new to captivity. But they still have all the exact same behaviors.

You fellas stated that your pyros(some) have stopped feeding. A first sign of fall and winter was the logical indication. That is of no real interest, except why pyros first? If some had greeri, they would be saying the same things.

Your pyros, are indeed acting exactly like natural ones, as they sense the temps dropping at the place they are in, they move to more suitable place/s. Only yours cannot do that, so they go dormant. Pyros and greeri are sensitive to this because of their habitat. High elevation is quick to change weather. So they move at the very first signs. Low elevation snakes, just duck for a few days when a cold front hits.

So my point was, your snakes are acting very normally, and in fact just like wild ones. You do understand, wild ones will run out of warmer places to go to and have to go dormant too. Or not. depending on local.

As the fella in Fla. said, sometimes they feed all winter, sometimes they don't. All else equal(healthy snakes) stop feeding when they have no need to feed, but, but, but, they don't stop behaving.

If you modified your conditions to meet the seasons, your pyros, would act differently and not stop feeding or stop behaving. While this may not be necessary or helpful in breeding reptiles, it may be helpful in understanding them. It may also bring joy in keeping, which keeps us interested.

And lastly, you were defensive. Just go back and look at your post. Short blunt and avoiding the subject, then turning it on me, like its my fault. I wonder if snakes do that. You see, thats normal human behavior. If you were not being defensive, you could have said, FR, what the heck are you talking about, and we could have gone on with some sort of conversation. That conversation may or may not have helped you understand snakes, but that doesn't matter, its all about the conversation. A question, how many good conversations occur here? FR

How can they be the same when wild is wild and captive is captive?
Like i said before, the difference being, caged/captivity vs. wild/freedom,
can't you understand that captive snakes can and do act totally different from wild snakes?
You should already know that.
I'm not a psychologist, you should seek professional help,HAHAHAHAHAHAHA,lol!

If I am to understand you, you are crediting kingsnakes with the ability to change their inherent behaviors and make new ones, because you put them in a box. Hmmmmmmmmmm I need to think about that. They must be far more advanced then mammals, heck people cannot even do that.

I am afraid, me thinking did no good. As I was taught and I believe, all animals have basic set behaviors, and they react accordingly to input with these behaviors. I get the feeling their behaviors and there ability to respond to them is exactly the same. But the input is not the same. Can you think about that? Your input to those behaviors is not the same. That makes the snakes the same. They just don't have normal input to react to.

So yes, your snakes may do different things, not because they are different, but because you supply different input. That is, you again are only allowing them to do so much. It really has little to do with the snakes abilities or whether they are in captivity or not.

For instance, one behavior thats skirted about here, Nesting. If you give them the tools to build and use a crappy nest, thats what they will do. If you give them the tools to build and use a really nice nest, again, thats what they will do. Also, if you do not give them any tools to nest at all, then the eggs go in the water bowl. The snakes the same snake, its about what is available to it.

This goes for the pyros stopping feeding. If they had the ability to move to a more suitable place, they would. But if they cannot then they won't, its just that simple.

The very nice part of having these conversations here on the KS forum is, people like you are very successful, and you should not have to worry about what others think of you. You also do not have to use any of this to help you become successful, you already are. Its not about life and death for your snakes, its simply, another way to think about our successful kingsnakes. On the monitor forum its quite a different story, its not about further learning there, its about life or death. Events like breeding are rare, and hatching is very very rare. They are lucky if their monitors live a couple years. So me having this type of conversation there is indeed rare.

I do understand, they do not HAVE to act like wild ones, thats not the point. But many are curious about how captives relate to wild ones. After all, we like the dang things. If your not interested or curious, then why did you even post a followup??? To prove me wrong perhaps? I am not wrong, the wild pyros around here are feeding just fine. Thats all I stated. How it relates to captive kingsnakes is the interesting part, or at least it should be for some of us. Just not you, I guess. U know, thats fine too. FR

and yes snakes do have a behavior change when put in a captive situation,this is something that makes them different from living in the wild, ofcourse they still retain some basic wild instincts.
They are transformed into a different type of animal with a different attitude and thru repetitive events develope new habits and accustoms.
I don't mind your opinions at all, i enjoy your posts, and hope you're around for a long time.

can anyone else see these photobucket images? I've been looking at posts all day with images from that server and none will load....... arrggggghhhh.

Forks

n/p

very frustrating. Not just on this site, but on several sites no photobucket images load

they must have an IP blocker on san antonio road runner or something?? who knows.... I wanna see that nigrita posted up top.

Forks

Just posted with them on two forums.....

Hey Frank,
I love this stuff. I could talk about it all day long, as the next best thing to observing animals in nature, or finding them. I especially love anything to do with natural history of animals, feeding habits, geographic distribution, origins, sympatric species, etc ad nauseum.

Keep throwing this stuff out there. I'll discuss it with you even if nobody else will.

Here's a picture of a Kingsnake's home. Anyone want to guess what kind of kingsnake calls this particular hole home?

Forky

well kinda,,,i'll say that lil hole contained a getula OR a calligaster longleaf pine hmmmm speck maybe speckXdesert ,,,but then again,maybe a calligaster ive found all 3 in similiar area's in central tx. so which is it?,,,,cool pic,,,thomas

A full Holbrooki with a bullsnake in its belly.......That is my WAG...
So, what is it Joe?
Calligaster....If so, take me there so I can find a pair......LOL
John Lassiter

?

Frank was closest...
L. m. greeri

I wasn't even thinking of south of the border and I usually always do on the Mexicana subforum.....LOL
Is that one of the shots from the "Greeri Wranglers" that I saw a few years back?
John Lassiter

>>Is that one of the shots from the "Greeri Wranglers" that I saw a few years back?
>>John Lassiter

That one was from August 2005, less than two months ago.

Forky

Oh...I knew I saw it before...I think a mutual frien of ours sent it to me....Great looking wild Greeri too....
John Lassiter

I'm gonna guess calli-g.
Todd Hughes

alterna can be found under a surface rock in late November (I found one).
Actually the only Pyro Ive ever found was in November in the Huachucas.

I think I have been around reptiles for a very long time. And in the time, it taught me to measure surface temps, not air temps. Air temps are, more or less, worthless. Its the mass and surface temps that reptiles understand. What are yours doing? gaining or losing heat?

Now if you understand mass and temps. All things hold and radiate heat at a different rate. So at all times, all objects are either absorbing heat or emitting heat. This understanding is key. Think about it for awhile.

But all in all, I suggested that pyros in nature are not hibernating or brumating, and I was really wondering what is the relationship with that? FR

..if you don't mind.. I assume you have a lot of natural history on these guys (pyros) and could help me out.
I have wondered what they might be feeding on primarily (and secondarily if you know) at this time of year and does their diet change along with the "season" so to speak? That is, would they be more apt to feed on rodents during a cooler period??
Just wondering here as I have no knowledge at all of their real natural history.
By the way, I have had my pyros feed throughout the year here in FL and sometimes not (cooler months). Nevertheless, they have bred for me successfully each year for 10 or so years. "Cooled" or not.
What time of year do you normally find neonates in your area??
I would be in herper's heaven if I found a pyro at my feet!
Consider yourself lucky to be able to enjoy the magnificent animals they are.
Thanks...
:Mark

Wild pyros feed on rodents, lizards and birds(nest robbing)

What they key on is local dependant. Each population takes advantage of common prey timing and each differs.

I can tell you, what I have not seem them eat, snakes and insects. Now insects may sound funny, but both lepidus and willards, eat insects when young. I have also seen lepidus eat birds.

Babies normally hatch in late July to Nov. This information, was taken from several nest sites. We don't get waves of babies that are common in other parts of the country.

In fact, we just had a bunch of baby gophersnakes appear in the last couple of weeks. They also appeared in july.

Around here, it seems that the snakes that are going to reproduce the next year, stay active for as long as they can. Non-breeders, go inactive much sooner. I hope this helps. FR

...insects do sound odd as prey...until you find that many more ssp. use them as prey especially as youngsters. I was in n. FL and found copperheads (youmg AND adult) feeding on beetles.
I kinda figured that actually "cooling" or brumating was really not a choice at all, but rather something they do out of necessity many times?
Keep it coming!
:Mark

for captive snakes to get out of the feeding mode at anytime of the year for various reasons and then get back into it when they want to.
anyone who keeps snakes find this out sooner or later.
it's just part of keeping snakes.

...for some to to ponder to hard...the no brainer once again is an experienced keeper of kings...& I defer to you, (tho I have done it myself on a smaller scale for decades.......).....know that you play w/ zonies & godknows what others...you'd better have skinks or patience! They aint all getulus....

& belatedly...again its a nobrainer that this isnt about conflict...dialog & perhaps more importantly...style

Cervesas frios...RxR

for spoilt rotten snakes to act different than wild snakes, if they realized that they don't have to deal with hawks and skunks they would understand that they have it easy.

....I would suggest the majority of our captive snakes are more similar, behaviorally to their wild breathern then some might think...Even a wild snake, well fed/& hydrated finding itself at a thermal optimum is a pretty lazy beast
I agree that many of the defensive behaviors are suppressed by regular handling, tho when my dog approachs for a sniff...that hardwired response uploads pretty fast....
Much of what little Im gleaning about the aut-ecology of regal ringnecks is done via observing them in captivity & attempting to simulate ntrl events.
There appears to be more going on in those wee heads than we generally recognize, which is why I have concluded captive snakes do better w/ regular (weekly) roaming time & handling.

Youre snakes may act wilder than mine, since most of mine are "DOG TAME" which is the next best thing to domestication.

...I think that there is a pigsnake!... n' you otta feed it out of a trough...sniffle sniffle...reminds me of my ole fren mojo the cribo (RIP)...he used to like reading the forums w/ me!

whoaaa whats this...

lizard, purty nice lookin habitat too!

Well, not a question, but an experiment of sorts. What I am going to attempt with my suboc and perhaps a pair of local kings is 1) for subocs I will attempt a Retes style pile of talos outdoors and try to simulate both a temp gradient and a less stress filled enclosure. I cannot duplicate west Texas in south Texas outdoors, but believe I can acheive a higher degree of temp ranges. That should allow for more choices combined with a few choices in substrate, maybe different results.
2) A varying moist and dry gradient with humidity being the target for these "speckled" like splendida from north of me, with underground hiding choices.
Most of my kings are very reliable eaters, and none have gone off feed, quite the opposite. The large male suboc doesn't feed often and only small rat pups, while the neonate female eats pinkies, fuzzies, and has started on hoppers agressively. I have a lot to try this fall/winter, and most of these posts have started the juices flowing.
Todd Hughes

np

>>np

He and I found that one and one other Saturday night.

Forks

Wow! That really stands out in the pack with being a nice white over black. Good luck with it. Is the second one also white over black? Will you be trying to breed the strain? Thanks.

I've got 1.1 yellows, and Todd there has 1.0 white. They all came from the same spot so I suspect (will find out) that's part of the natural variation in that group.

These are pure splendida from West Texas. And if the habitat photo on Vivid reptiles is a true portrayal of his locality, these came from the exact same spot.

Forky

He'll be the backup for Joe's snake, if needed, but I don't think he will, and I would very much like to express that white. Who knows, mayhap a female could be found for him, no? Thanks Joe! It was back to the grindstone....(hint) if anyone needs hurricane shutters, please order them in WINTER!!!!!LOL! It's cutting into my wannabe job, snake wrangler! Oh yeah, both pics same male.
Todd Hughes

Who, me? I haven't bred anything yet, but with the gurus that abound here and their sage advise I should be a go next year for specks, deserts and nigritas, along with some local rats and my corn. Which king Bob, the black and white desert?
Todd Hughes

This guy?
Todd Hughes

Yeah! thats the one. Beautiful animal, very different.

I like him VERY much!
Todd Hughes

>>Actually they do what you force them to do. They have no choice.
>>
>> I just find it odd how people talk of hibernation or brumation, when its right in the middle of their active season. Remember, I said odd. Not bad or worse, just odd.
>>
>> Hey another odd thing. The temps are dropping and captives snakes are going dormate, is that a surprise? A good question is out there waiting to be asked, but no one is asking it. FR
-----

RATS
2.0 Corn snakes "Warpath" & "Thunderbird" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Your info is greatly appreciated. It amazes me that the behavior of wild snakes in their environment can be so different from what we observe in captivity. Then again, it shouldn't surprise anyone I guess.

Is there a way to provide the options needed for these animals in a cage so that their behavior more closely resembles what they would do in the wild? Have you or anyone else been able to get pyro to feed during this time like they would in the wild?
-----
Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

Of course there are ways, mainly its getting away from a single cage, single condition, mentality.

In nature, they pick places that have the choices they commonly make. That is, from hot to cool, and consistant humidity. At times these places are limited by season, so they have several places they use. When one becomes unsuitable, they simply move to one that is suitable. Each snake or colony of snakes, has a very set number of these.

There are several things to consider, under normal conditions, food is not a concern, their enviornment normally supplys plenty with easy access. But under abnormal conditions, behavior can and does change, unusual rain, can cause snakes to relocate, drought, fire, tractors, etc., can also cause disruption of normal behavior.

Also social behavior can cause disruption of behavior, in other words, they can get booted out, by another individual. In fact, with younger individuals, its very normal to get booted forth and back. Larger older individuals pretty get their way. hahahahahahaha Such is life.

In captivity, you can see these things with larger cages that have more choices, also, by not sticking to one cage, but use a series of cages.

It sort of boggles my mind that people think of a cage as permanet to a snake, as in, this is my goini cage. Hmmmmmmmmmm How about this is my goini series of cages, in the winter they go there, in the spring there, and the summer there. That is kinda normal for them. Any questions, FR

Frank
That seasonal cage thing is the best thing I have seen you post in a long time. It is also something that I never thought of. Though not to practical for me now as I cut back and narrow my collection (which never works) I will try that.

One of your gems
Thanks Jason

Check out what Applegate did with some of his cages / cage / banks of cages.

He's got coloumns and rows of units linked by 2" PVC tubing.
Snakes are free to go up / down / sideways / diagonal anytime they coose.

Very simple to offer gradients in an instance like this. You could even keep a breeding group in the bank and they are free to choose the level / layer that most meets their needs.

Think of the possibilities. A humid unit, a dry units, units at 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95 what ever you (they) want.

Forks

I have been dreaming about those cages for years. I have a three cage in one unit right now that is 4ft X 2ft times three high that I have thought about modifing to do just that. I just don't want to ruin the cage. Maybe I will try and see how it goes. I have a large group of albino hondos that I could try it with.
Later Jason

Jason,
I think with those fittings you won't be ruining anything. If it doesn't work out for you, you can cap them off. Ok they might look funny, but they won't be ruined

Forky

LOL I mentioned doing some cage upgrades and got such a look from my girlfriend that i think it will be awhile. Instead I got a list of things to do around the house. LOL Never mention snake work to the woman of your life. She will always find other more important things for you.
later Jason

Just do it with one or two pairs, just for fun. It is fun you know. I think sometimes, people take away the parts that keeps us interested. You don't have to do this with all your snakes.

Also more on what Joe said, a friend of mine had problems breeding Sanzinia, he had a bank of cages, each had a lite for heat etc. He recieved a clutch here and there. Then he gave up. And opened doors between all the cages, then left the heat on the end cage. All of a sudden, he recieved clutch after clutch. The key was, he stoppped telling them what to do(right sometimes and wrong at others) and started asking them or letting them make their own choices. Now both are happy. FR

I like it! I was going for a high/low kind of version for the subocs, and try that later on for alterna if I saw good things. Now if I can just get some Kangaroo rats and bats without pissing on TPandW! LOL!
Todd Hughes

>>Of course there are ways, mainly its getting away from a single cage, single condition, mentality.
>>
>> In nature, they pick places that have the choices they commonly make. That is, from hot to cool, and consistant humidity. At times these places are limited by season, so they have several places they use. When one becomes unsuitable, they simply move to one that is suitable. Each snake or colony of snakes, has a very set number of these.
>>
>> There are several things to consider, under normal conditions, food is not a concern, their enviornment normally supplys plenty with easy access. But under abnormal conditions, behavior can and does change, unusual rain, can cause snakes to relocate, drought, fire, tractors, etc., can also cause disruption of normal behavior.
>>
>> Also social behavior can cause disruption of behavior, in other words, they can get booted out, by another individual. In fact, with younger individuals, its very normal to get booted forth and back. Larger older individuals pretty get their way. hahahahahahaha Such is life.
>>
>> In captivity, you can see these things with larger cages that have more choices, also, by not sticking to one cage, but use a series of cages.
>>
>> It sort of boggles my mind that people think of a cage as permanet to a snake, as in, this is my goini cage. Hmmmmmmmmmm How about this is my goini series of cages, in the winter they go there, in the spring there, and the summer there. That is kinda normal for them. Any questions, FR
-----
Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

it's been suggested here that snakes can't change their behavior in captivity. and it's been suggested they can.

I'll opt for the adaptability camp. When i first started keeping Australian Lady Gouldian Finches (ambient temps in natural range often 110 degrees F or hotter in the summer) the major books said they shouldn't be exposed to temps below 65, or they'd die.

And that might have been correct, then, when american aviculturists had only wild-caught specimens to deal with.

Years later the Goulds had been captive bred in the US for many generations, and i had gotten in the habit of not closing the windows to my bird building until temps fell to the mid-40s or lower. I had birds moulting (considered a sensitive period), breeding, on eggs, and feeding babies at those temps, without problems. My Goulds bred year-round, unlike the original, imported wild-caught specimens that stuck to a strict season. And other breeders (I live in Florida) in California reported keeping their Goulds outside and some mornings having to break skim ice off the water bowls. A friend who visits this forum and keeps snakes AND finches reminded me of that recently--he's in Michigan and brings his goulds indoors after he's had to break the skim ice on their water bowls once or twice.

It's clear to me those animals changed their behavior--in this case changed some of their environmental needs, and responses--in captivity, over time.

I would expect the same of snakes. Does that mean i ignore what can be gleaned about my snakes' behavior in the wild? Not at all. Nor did i ignore field observations pertinent to the birds: in the spring, for ex, goulds begin nest building and courting after the first spring rains (no rains, they'll skip a season) because by the time eggs are laid and hatching, the rains will have spawned a crop of seeding grasses providing food for the hatchlings. So i occasionally tried misting my birds, to simulate rain and perhaps stimulate breeding. Fact is, though, that by that time the birds were domesticated enough/adapted to the captive environment enough that i wasn't able to observe any measurable diff in breeding activity between "rain" and no rain.

terry