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The problem with classifying south Brazilian amarali (and boas in general). (Long, but cool pics)

Barry Miller Oct 04, 2005 11:18 PM

There is a problem with the taxonomy of BCA, and I will try to address it here as best I can. Please forgive the length of this post. First of all, here is a pic of a nice redtail born here in 2002.

A nice BCC, right? Wrong! Boa constrictor amarali (Lemke 96 X Belknap 97). I knew this issue would come up, so I took pictures of a shed from this animal early on. I am willing to take more, and to put this animal up for inspection. The rows are on the high side, but within amarali range (remember, the belly and “fringe” ones you don’t count). The tail is amarali. (These are the only counts pertinent to distinguishing BCA from BCC.)


That said, it is my understanding that some of the animals, particularly from Lloyds 94 litter, have row counts that are too high for amarali. I will not dispute this, though I haven’t personally counted one that is; but the size of the scales shows me that it is likely. So why did Lloyd call them BCA? The tails (not the red blotches on top, but the scales from the vent to the tip), and the location.

In the Systematics (classification) class I took in college, I was blessed to have a fairly renowned professor (Ashlock), who felt that subspecies classifications served a good purpose. (Personally, I feel locality tells us much more than subspecies, but that is another argument.) I asked him: “What about ranges, such as the Boa constrictor which ranges from Mexico to Argentina.” He answered: “We’ll get to that.” Of course we never did, though I brought it up repeatedly. What I am talking about of course is integradation (is that a word?).

The problem: Stull based the classification of amarali on only a handful of boas (ten?). Not enough to be statistically significant. Apparently they were all from high altitude areas too, as they were described as being different from BCC in that they were grey (as Herman has already pointed out, we are very confident that there are indeed tan BCA in Bolivia that have red tails). Please stay with me here. As I pointed out in a previous post, boas in cooler climates tend to be smaller in length (though perhaps bigger in girth), darker (grey/silver rather than tan), and they have lower scale counts. Check out the size and scale counts of the Mexican boa, versus a BCC. I maintain that Sao Paolo is at a very high altitude, and that as one moves down toward the (warmer) basin, one will find animals that are lighter, more colorful, longer, and will have higher dorsal scale counts.
Where does one draw the line? You cannot call the Lemke animals BCC, the tail is too short. Also, if you actually own these animals you know that they are nothing like the BCC, but very much like Bolivians (except they like it warmer). Stull’s classification is inadequate, it is not based on a statistically significant sampling. I maintain, as did Lloyd, that these are very much amarali. If you want to draw a line elsewhere in the sand with your toe (which is basically what we are doing in assigning subspecies), that is your choice. It is great fodder for conversation, but certainly not worthy of the kind of anger and hostility I have seen a very few people send out.

To conclude, these animals are not misrepresented. They are from south Brazil, not Bolivia. They are better called amarali, since most meet Stull’s flawed classification, and those that don’t do not qualify as BCC. I do not feel they should be bred to Bolivians, they are way different, and let’s please try to maintain the locality appearance, etc. I apologize to all those I have offended with my vehement defense of these animals. I felt that the late Lloyd Lemke was being slandered, and I felt that a man of his caliber deserved to be treated better. Also, when Tim Belknap sold me the last of his south Brazilians, he dubbed me "keeper of the Lemke line", a responsibilty I take way too seriously, LOL. I would urge each and every one of us (especially me) to relax, take a deep breath, and enjoy these magnificent animals for what they are: God’s awesome creation. Trust me, they are by far and away the best locality boa I have owned, and I will keep and breed them until the day I die. Thanks for your patience, and I will conclude with a picture of Lloyd’s wild caught male as a reward to those that made it this far (see, I didn't breed the saddles out of them, it was God, LOL). I will save this post for the next time this argument comes up (it will), and Kemper, I look forward to kicking your ass, I know you did this just to annoy me :

Replies (25)

koky6869 Oct 04, 2005 11:37 PM

np
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THERES NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL

Trueredtails Oct 04, 2005 11:55 PM

NP
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True Redtails

SuppleReptiles Oct 05, 2005 12:53 AM

Because I have to put up with friends like these! See what I mean! Just think what you would come up with if you had to put up with them....pretty soon you would be trying to breed a colombian BCI to a burmese python LOL.

It's all in love Barry

davel Oct 04, 2005 11:50 PM

.
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Dave Lee

madisonrecords Oct 05, 2005 09:47 AM

Barry, I commend you greatly on trying to hash this situation out, but there is a problem; " at least in my mind. " I made reference, to this before. Sao Paulo, " Brazil " is not at a high elevation, it is right on the coast in fact and is also the largest populated city in the entire country of Brazil.The area, that is considered the city, was tropical rain forest and then when you go west, it goes into scrubs and savannahs.That is why, I said; " Were they really found in Sao Paulo? Were did Lloyd " who I highly respect " find the original adults, in a garbage can? I do believe that, darker Boas can often time be from higher elevations and or cooler regions, but if the truth be REALLLY, REALLY known, there is probably so much mislabeled stuff out there, it is not even funny and I believe that some of the confusion, very well could have started with some of the old pioneers, " telling little white lies. " Maybe I am completely off base, but lets be for real! Could they have came from Sao Paolo, yes. Were they from Sao Paolo in all actuallity, Hmmm I wonder? Maybe they were found in, Londrina Sorocaba or Bauru or Campinas or Curitiba? If that was the real case " meaning all of these little towns, surround Sao Paolo " then Holy Mackeral!, they have been mislabeled even in their locality status as well as there subspecification status. Am I completely nuts, or do you guys see were I am trying to go with this? Anyway, good luck Barry with your beautiful " South American Boa Constrictors. "...........Johnson Herp

bthacker Oct 05, 2005 10:04 AM

.

madisonrecords Oct 05, 2005 10:27 AM

Yes, certain parts of it are and thank you for the clarification, but we are also dealing with a city that is a coastal city and regardless of it's elevation, it is not considered a cool region, on the coast were the rain forest is prevelant. So, that is the question in my mind. Barry's line exhibits light color and more red tails, was Lemke"s line found on the beach or in a garbage can in the city or some tropical grassy knoll in the city? Maybe the guy Kemper is referring too, finds his further west were it is more scrub land and tends to get somewhat cooler, because of the lack of thick vegetation? The key point, that I am trying to make in my own somewhat crazy way is simple; " we all get a little to anal at times concerning things and maybe we should just not sweat the rediculous small stuff. If you are truly lucky enough to have something, that you would honestly be willing to stake your life on knowing were it came from, then great and as far as the rest, if you did not pull it out of the tree yourself, then there is a better than good chance that, the lineage of locality has probably been at least somewhat mislead by the time you get it. " When it comes down to it guys; " We all just breed for certain characteristics that we personnaly like. " Barry, produces some animals with missing patterns, " I think it is just horrible. " I, prefer dark Boas; " Barry may think I am nuts for liking dark Boas. " The guy across the street breeds and enjoys his certain look, " The guy across the street may not like his stuff. " It can all get pretty rediculous at times and there has been times when I have fell in and become the ring leader. Thanks, Hacker for your input and somewere in my ramblings, there is a point with prevelance, but good luck finding it, Ha! Ha! Here is a Boa from Caponi French Guiana, I have had people say, it is a Peruvian and some a Suriname and some have said, she is a Brazilian. I know were she came from and I have males too and that is great, but in the end it is just a Boa and I may find people that like dark ones and maybe I will have to keep them or eat them with my buddy from Africa...........Johnson Herp

bthacker Oct 05, 2005 10:50 AM

I don't know I was receently in Costa Rica and my last day was spent in Monteverde, a town that is 1,400 meters in elevation. On the way there the weather changed quite a bit and you would be surprised what 2,700 ft. feels like compared to sea level. I am not trying to bust your balls just giving my opinion on Sao Paulo's location.....by the way it is on a plateau, so I would imagine the elevation can't vary that much???

SRX Oct 05, 2005 11:37 AM

"if you did not pull it out of the tree yourself"

This pure and simple statement is the single, solitary truth that every hobbiest in the States keeps deluding themselves into overlooking.

Whether they collect Green Tree Pythons, East African Sandboas, Indo Blue Tongue Skinks, Central American Boas, Scrub Pythons, Carpet pythons, South American redtails or any other animal that is imported(captive or wild caught) through multiple hands before arriving into a breeding project/colony, are an educated generalized guess at best.

madisonrecords Oct 05, 2005 12:29 PM

That ia really the main point that I was trying to make in all of my ramblings. We can talk about Geography and elevations and all of that, all that we want to, but the fact remains that we are dealing with animals were there have been very little REAL research done on a number of issues concerning our beloved Boas, " subspecies, species and color variances and breeding behavior and feeding behavior ect.ect. " I have been accused incorrectly as saying; " All Boas are the same " and I do not believe that at all. What I believe is that there is genetic isolation in some areas and or the wild equivalent of selective breeeding in certain areas. I do believe that 90% of the differences, in all " Boa constrictors " is more color and pattern variances than anything that would divide " certain ones " into subspecies. I have done scale counts on Guyanas, that are the same as Peruvians that I have had. I have done scale counts on Columbians, that were the same as Peruvians I have had, ect.ect. I am not saying; " Breed whatever you want as far as different localities, but in most cases, you have to just go with what you know. " A very respected breeder of Surinames told me one time," Everything in my collection is PURE FROM SURINAME. " I told him; " I bet you a years salary that you are wrong, because I know the shipments that some of your original lines came from and they were caught and imported from Guyana. " He has not talked to me since and that was 10yrs ago. Point being, sometimes fantasy is better than reality or maybe sometimes, we are just to gullable. Would you believe that this is a Suriname? In my own collection, as well I am sure as many of you guys,we have many examples of how variable ALL OF these Boa Constrictors can be. How do I know that this one is a Suriname for just one example? It said it on the box and that is as good as it gets for most all of us........Johnson Herp

cory_b Oct 05, 2005 01:53 PM

If there is such a lack of genetic diversity in our captive Brazilian amarali populations, does it make sense to inbreed these animals generation after generation? Where are we going with this project? Seems like a dead end effort unless fresh blood can be imported... which isn't going to happen anytime soon. Can someone please explain this to me? Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking those who breed these animals... I love them too, but after a few more generations these lines will be so inbred it's not even funny. Am I wrong?

Trueredtails Oct 05, 2005 02:22 PM

Hmmm. what about every single morph out there....arent they inbred? I may be wrong as I dont keep any morphs.
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True Redtails

cory_b Oct 05, 2005 02:30 PM

Sure they are inbred, but one can always add fresh blood to a project because of the number of separate lines in captivity. See what I mean?

agentcooper0103 Oct 05, 2005 02:51 PM

All of the morphs (at one time)were heavily inbred. No big secret that when you get into the ground level of a highly "sought after" morph you will more than likely inbreed quite a bit to get your hets/double hets/ or whatever your trying to "genetically" engineer. The only way to do this over a short amount of time is to inbreed. Keep hording your animals and when the time is right you start selling.....thus ensuring your far enough ahead of the game to not have someone catch up to you with that particular morph before you make top dollar.

This all started with the albino burm in the late 80's/early 90's. And look where we are now.

VFR Oct 05, 2005 03:38 PM

You are both correct and incorrect. How can I explain this.... hmmm. Let say for example, the first litter of het. albinos were born in the early 90s, then you have a salmon which were established in the mid 90s. While you have some inbred of each line, the albinos and salmons get introduced and you have hets. and eventually sunglows. So now you have a little new blood in your morphs. Now consider the fact that you bring in a jungle from Sweden and mix that with your sunglows, salmons and albinos. Then you start breeding those morphs to arabesque and motleys. Each of those boas comes from a different breeder or line. Currently we have had a salmon x blood mix. How in bred is that, one or 2 generations? Not to mention that many breeders will on occasion find morphs in imports and also breed into normals. You don't get these options with a specific population of boas. So are morphs inbred? Yes, many are, but you can easily thin out that line with another morph or import. How often is this option available with a specific locality?

agentcooper0103 Oct 05, 2005 03:48 PM

Good points for sure......However, go back futher. What about those Het Albino's. How inbred is the albino line? The ones you are starting with.

davel Oct 05, 2005 04:07 PM

but albinism being a recessive trait, you can breed them to "anything" to make new hets. Yes, there is inbreeding by some (early on and now), but you can just as easily breed new lines into it to make up for that. Of course recently, many BCC has been crossed into this project.

The objectives are fundamentally different:

Morphs - don't care about purity
BCA - strive to perserve locality, or at least natural "look"

Not sure if it is relevant to compare the two.
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Dave Lee

cory_b Oct 05, 2005 03:57 PM

The situation with the Lempke/King amarali is totally different than morph bloodlines. My point is that there are no more animals coming in from Brazil due to their tight control over exportation... which means that we are stuck with what we've got. You can't just keep inbreeding generation after generation without adding new blood. That is not the case with morphs, because Bci are so common in captivity... there will NEVER be a shortage in diversity.

davel Oct 05, 2005 04:17 PM

If it is true (I haven't looked into it) that there is just a handful of BCA in the genepool, with no hopes of getting more...what is the end result and goal for this project. And is it sustainable for new enthusiastes, like me, to get into? I guess in some instances I would be buying F2 to breed and sell F3 to my customers. Although we may not be at this stage, yet.
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Dave Lee

agentcooper0103 Oct 05, 2005 04:28 PM

I've really been wanting to get into Amarali's. So, what do some of you think I should start looking for to get a good line of animal?

davel Oct 05, 2005 04:37 PM

talking to ones who had had much work with the species such as Barry Miller.
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Dave Lee

VFR Oct 05, 2005 04:29 PM

My post waS NOT intended to support your post/idea (Cory). My post was trageted at a question from Trueredtails. I did not know you that you had to addrees the subject or the previous person, my bad.

cory_b Oct 05, 2005 08:21 PM

...

H+E Stoeckl Oct 05, 2005 08:49 PM

Where in the description of Boa c. constrictor does it say that their tails must have a certain length?

In 1984 two German tourists bought a couple of Boa c. c. Babies in Belem/Brazil on the market. They brought it to Germany and got babies in 1990. I was lucky to get a couple of the babies and bred it in 1996.

These animals have very short tails compared to other Boa c. c.(I know what I am talking about since I have a large collection of Surinames and Peruvians).

But nobody will seriously dispute that Belem is the distribution area of Boa c. c. Or should I be mistaken?

I don't know the Belknap bloodline, but if they are in fact Boa c. amarali then you have produced crosses.

Enjoy the photo and look at the tail.
The #1 Boa constrictor site in the www.
The #1 Boa constrictor site in the www.

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The #1 Boa constrictor site in the world wide web

H+E Stoeckl Oct 05, 2005 08:50 PM

Belem Boa c. c. (short tail!)
The #1 Boa constrictor site in the www.
The #1 Boa constrictor site in the www.

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The #1 Boa constrictor site in the world wide web

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