Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can someone tell me the caresheet of a madarin rat snake? Also are all water snakes venomous? I saw in an old magazine about them and it said non venomous. Then my dad said they all were and then in a book I saw it said they were venomous. Thanks, bye.

No, not all water snakes are venomous. In the United States, there is only one venomous water snake, the Water Moccasin. Most snakes found in the United States are not venomous.

I have a feeling that you have never kept snakes before. You might want to start with a less expensive and easier to keep snake such as a Corn Snake. There are plenty of care sheets out there for Corn Snakes.
Snakes of North America

Actually, most snakes species in the US are venomous, at least according to current definitions of venomous. Herpetologists today identify venomous snakes by whether or not they produce venom, not by whether or not they are dangerous. That's an important point.

You might type "duvernoy's gland" into google and see what I mean. It might also be help to include the keywords colubrid and venomous.

This is a major change since my youth and not something that has trickled into textbooks or field guides. But the information is out there. Even some species historically classified in Elaphe are considered venomous.

Chris,

First, I do know what you are referring to, but let's not loose sight of the question. When someone asks if a snake is venomous on this forum, they are asking if a bite from the snake will cause you real direct harm. I don't care if a brown water snake bites me, but I do care if a water moccasin bites me.

Your point is well taken, but it is never a good answer to a general question on a forum like this one. Someone will start to think that a bite from any water snakes can cause a person real harm. As we all know, that is just not the case. Too many ignorant people go around killing snakes because they think they are poisonous. Let us not feed into the public's fear of snakes.

Rick

>>First, I do know what you are referring to...

That modern science defines most colubrids as venomous, include many of what we call ratsnakes.

>>..but let's not loose sight of the question. When someone asks if a snake is venomous on this forum, they are asking if a bite from the snake will cause you real direct harm.

I don't see it that way at all. Venomous vs. non-venomous is one question, albeit one where the answer occurs along a continuum, whether a snake is dangerous is another.

>>I don't care if a brown water snake bites me, but I do care if a water moccasin bites me.

I agree.

>>Your point is well taken, but it is never a good answer to a general question on a forum like this one. Someone will start to think that a bite from any water snakes can cause a person real harm. As we all know, that is just not the case. Too many ignorant people go around killing snakes because they think they are poisonous. Let us not feed into the public's fear of snakes.

Venomous colubrids are discussed here all of the time. I think it's a perfectly appropriate place to discuss venomous colubrids, although Nerodia specifically may belong on another forum. We have had some pretty prestigious scientists on this forum to discuss the issue, I'd like to think that we'd encourage them to spend time here.

Chris,

If you were to post a message with the topic "Instances of Duvernoy's gland in colubrids", I would be one of the first to take the time to read it, and such a post would belong on this forum. But when someone is asking for care sheets and if all water snakes are "venomous", you don't want to give a misleading reply. Your answer was much to technical for the level of the question asked. The part about "care sheet" and "my dad told me" should have clued you in. For most people, a venomous snake is one that's bite can harm you.

"The Venom Sisters" (LOL)

Your answer was much to technical for the level of the question asked. The part about "care sheet" and "my dad told me" should have clued you in.

I think you need to re-read the original post as the original question was also in reference to something read in a book. That should "clue you in" that a semi-technical discussion is warranted, although you seem to be frustrated that it's being posted here. On that note, I do think that Herpguy24 might ask the same question over on the Rear-Fanged and Water Snake Forums. And I'll appologize for not recommending that in my first post. But give how often this is discussed on this forum regarding venomous "ratsnakes" such as Ptyas, Gonyosoma, and Spalersophis, I think a bit of foray into modern desciptions of what is venomous is warranted, especially on a forum of relatively "in the know" people.

But when someone is asking for care sheets and if all water snakes are "venomous", you don't want to give a misleading reply.

Your position that my reply is misleading is opinion. The content of my reply is currently widely accepted by science.

I hope that clues you in.

First I am sorry for starting WWIII, but I didn't think this would happen. I asked for was a caresheet for Madarin Ratsnake, okay. So, after that, I asked if all water snakes were venomous, because my dad said all were, and a book had them under the venomous section, because I wanted to keep one, but then I noticed it said rear fanged. An old magazine my cousin had( about 5 years old) had them under the non-venomous section. I had no idea that most colubrids were venomous, I thought they were all harmless unless water mocussins is classified as colubrid. I usually thought that corns and rats weren't that appealing until the asian ratsnakes. Could you tell me what corns, rats, and waters are venomous? Thanks, bye.

Sometimes it takes time for scientific interpretations of venomous to trickle down into hobbyist and popular press literature, even field guides. I think this is what you are noticing with the disagreement among different sources.

Also, defining objective criteria to classify colubrids as venomous or non-venomous can be difficult. Also, whether a colubrid is rear-fanged is not necessarily a criteria for identifying a snake as venomous or not. Rhabdophis, for example, has not apparent venom delivery system yet has caused human fatalities.

>>Could you tell me what corns, rats, and waters are venomous? Thanks, bye.

North American cornsnakes/ratsnakes are non-venomous. Asian Ratsnakes are a much more tricky bunch. I think Bryan Greg Fry considers many of them to be technically venomous, albeit completely harmless, save for the rare severe allergic reaction.

>>I had no idea that most colubrids were venomous, I thought they were all harmless unless water mocussins is classified as colubrid.

Most of the venomous colubrids are harmless. But that does not mean they are not venomous. The common honey bee is venomous but is hardly dangerous, again save for the occasional allergic reaction.

I would not hesitate to keep a North American Watersnake or Gartersnake, even though both are technically venomous. The Asian Keelbacks (Rhabdophis) that were imported in the 80's are another story. Some of those things pack a punch even though there is still a lot of books that list them as non-venomous.

I think I have this straight now. No north american corn or ratsnakes are venomous or even produce venom. But, the asians do but hardly ever bite and if do are rarely fatal unless alergies. So the all water snakes are venomous and rear fanged but some hardly ever bite. Is that right?

>>I think I have this straight now. No north american corn or ratsnakes are venomous or even produce venom.

Correct.

>>But, the asians do but hardly ever bite and if do are rarely fatal unless alergies.

This is a very complex subject. I'll just say that most of the Asian Ratsnakes in the hobby are "harmless".

>>So the all water snakes are venomous and rear fanged but some hardly ever bite. Is that right?

All of Nerodia are technically venomous, they are not rear-fanged, and they bite like the dickens. I've been bitten by several and only get localized itching. I get this from Thamnophis (Gartersnakes) as well.

I also get it from the Gonyosoma (an Asian Ratsnake) I keep.

If garter snakes have venom then how come everyone and every book says harmless. I have a book on it ( not specifically ) and what I think(even though I have no idea) is that you may have a small alergen to it? Or it may be that when it bites( as what happens usually in snakes) is the teeth get lodged into your skin which may cause infection. But what your saying is the madarin when it bites, has small if any venom that causes itching?

>>If garter snakes have venom then how come everyone and every book says harmless.

You're assuming that venomous equals dangerous, and that simply is not the case. In other words, a snake can be technically venomous but totally harmless to humans.

Just like ants. Many are venomous but some species could bite you repeatedly and you'll be fine.

I never said anything about Mandarins and have no idea if they fall into any modern interpretation of venomous. You need to take this over the rear fanged forum when Bryan Greig Fry starts posting there again. I assume he's off in the field somewhere as I have not seen a post from him in some time.
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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

we have some basic care info on Mandarins, Coxi, and Rhinos at our site, follow the link : )
Pro Exotics Care Sheets

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Yes I have had snakes before, I have a trio of kenyans, and 2 RES, but starting the business up again and thinking about them because I like the color and the book I saw it in didn't really tell me care.