Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all! I am thinking of getting into the cage making biz. Here are a feww that I have built or in progress. Wanting to do custom built cages, not only square boxes but some more elaborate designs as you can see with the cage (oriental design) that I am working on currently. I also fabricate the rocks, hides and water dishes. I guess you could say I'm in the R&D stage now. Let me know what you think. I'm not looking to put any of you pros out of business...lol. If anyone has any suggestions to offer, I'm all ears.
thanks cdeer

Link

Looking pretty good.. That last picture is nice...
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www.MGReptiles.com
Professional Reptile Heating Supplies

I am still in high school as of now but the is what I am thinking of doing also. I have been building my own herp cages for a little bit now, sorry I don’t have a cam. The last one I did is solid oak vertically oriented, self closing doors and it has a lighting area on the top that you can plug the lights inside the cage then just plug the cage in. it turned out very beautiful. I wish I had some pics… does anyone know if it would be possible to make a living doing this, building enclosures and taking them to herp shows and such? It seems like it would be an interesting career.
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1.0.0 bearded dragon
1.1.0 green iguana
0.0.1 black and gold tegu
1.0.0 knight anole
0.1.0 green anole
1.1.0 golden gecko
1.0.0 ball python
0.0.5 oriental firebellied toad
0.0.1 green treefrog
0.0.1 barking treefrog
0.0.1 cuban masked treefrog
0.0.1 gray treefrog
0.1.0 gulf hammock rat snake
0.1.0 eastern kingsnake
0.1.0 siberian husky

I wish you had a camera as your cage sounds really nice. You might read my reply to the previous poster.

Also, keeping in mind that even before lightweight plastic cages became readily available that the cabinet quality cage business was very difficult. Now that lightweight and easy to clean cages are available very few people want custom wood enclosures.

Heck, I have all the tools, space, time and money to build whatever I want and the light plastic cages still appeal to me.

But like I said in my other post, don't stop building cages. Chances are you can sell enough to justify having the tools.

I like your work and would like to hear more about your construction techniques, etc. What you use for building materials, joinery methods, how you seal the cages, etc.

Regarding the business, the custom terrarium market for reptiles has always been a difficult one. The main problem being the amount of time that goes into something other than a stock product.

Then on top of that is the reluctance of US hobbyists to accept naturalistic vivarium design and techniques. Just for an example, I have actually read posts where someone was asking about whether to use cypress, aspen, or other types of substrate for a W. Hognose snake, a species that likes to burrow, obviously. I actually read replies where people said that using anything other than newspaper was "bad" since any other subsrate was hard to clear, harbored mites, bacteria, etc.

That mentality is a tough one for people like you to overcome, unfortunately.

But with all that said, don't stop building cages. You might not be able to make a career out of it, but you might be able to come up with a nice DIY website that can attract advertising or something. And you'll probably always have the occasional customer so you can justify having a shop, etc.

Also, I recommend displaying some of your cages at local petstores. Maybe have one finished cage up and running, but then have a bare cage for sale. People may be willing the buy the bare cage and slowly but surely decorate it with your products.

If your cages are wood and sealed with something, give customers the option of finishing the cage themselves. People are intimidated by wood, nails, and saws, but the thought of saving money by picking up a paint brush is something they'll consider.

I hope this helps.

I am utterly disappointed with the general mentality behind keeping reptiles today as well(us americans in particular). Why is it, that we are moving further and further away from offering natural conditions?? Are we changing the animals in any way? Are these not the same exact animals as their wild counterparts? Do they not have the same physiological and ecological requirements for a healthy lifestyle??

And yet, here the hobby goes, pushing husbandry further and further away from what these animals are designed for and have been basing their existence on for millions of years..

It's sad to see that the hobby over here in the states has been at a 'plateau' for nearly a decade(maybe longer), with very few advancements or progression taking place. People's understandings of the biology of their animals has not gotten any better, than it was ten years ago. In fact, if you look back at the hobby ten years ago, heck, even twenty years, you will see that people were actually keeping their animals in larger, more spacious enclosures, offering more available options(temperatures, humidity levels, light intensities) and resources to use, etc... Nowadays, instead of providing more IDEAL conditions(larger spaces, more varying conditions/resources, etc), we are heading in the opposite direction... Shrinking our cages down, removing substrate, limiting hiding areas to one area- if any, denying the ability to perform natural behaviors and physiological processes, etc...

I have done a lot of thinking about this and what I have concluded, is that the reason for this mentality, all transpires down to money(greed). It is sad to see that this hobby has "morphed" from a hobby that was once about enthusiasts keeping reptiles because they enjoyed them, were fascinated by them, wanted to study them, etc.., into a hobby which is governed by greed, and the preconceived notion that you are going to get rich off of breeding reptiles.. People getting into certain species for the dollar potential, instead of keeping them for fun(who honestly ENJOYS caring for 300 ball pythons, or 300 leopard geckos....?). With this notion of making money, these people do whatever they can to make their 'stroll to the bank' as cheap as possible, hence cutting corners on husbandry, cage dimensions, etc. and increasing their profits.. And there's the rest of the hobby, right behind them to copy what they have done..

I for one am disgusted with this logic, as it is these conditions that deny our captives of natural behaviors, which these animals have modeled their lives around in the wild for eons... And then at the same time we hear people utterly shouting such nonsense as "keeping animals on substrates kills them".... bla bla bla... because of their utter understanding of the biology and physiology of their animals.. The last time I checked, reptiles are and have been doing just fine out in the wild on a vast array of different particle grains/sizes, as well as on many different substrate compositions...

The Europeans, who I admire in their level of thinking and understanding, have far exceeded us in their level of understanding, methodology, and success; and it shows through the successes that they have been seeing for decades, which we are only getting to now, or have not even acheived as of yet..

As a friend of mine pointed out to me, we can compare another pet hobby, to help us understand how poor and 'primitive' our hobby currently sits... Look at the aquarium hobby over the past 20 years. That hobby has progressed from once being about 'neon pink gravel and bubbling treasure chests', to multi-thousand dollar private units controlled by technologically advanced and state of the art instruments, maintaining every little aspect of their husbandry and conditions. The research, time, and money that they have put into studying and testing lighting, water quality, temperatures, social structures, etc. is unparalelled in the pet hobbyist community.

Now take a look at our hobby. We are keeping our animals in the same exact fashion that we were twenty years ago(many of those terrible, outdated "reptile books" are still in print, and many people are still basing their husbandry on them). Heck, even the same style cages that we currently use, were used back then! Perhaps nowadays they are made from 'space age' plastic materials, but in essence, they truly are the same old boxes...in fact over time, they have shrunk...thus decreasing the 'territory' of your captive even more than it already was in older style cages, with respect to their natural ranges out in the wild...(a 20' reticulated python in an 8' box?? come on...how ridiculous is this going to get??)

To sum it all up, I think that our hobby needs to wake up, and get over this 'money rules all' mentality; to look past the dollar signs and look at our captives' wellbeing from a scientific standpoint, taking much of what is known of their natural ecologies and physiologies into account when modeling our husbandry and dealing with issues/problems with our husbandry... Learn more about the biology of your animals, instead of making up silly claims such as "sand killed my leopard gecko"- which, I hate to tell you all, you won't find in Reptiles Magazine, or TFH publications, or what Joe down at PetsR'us tells you. All the answers to all the problems that we experience in captivity is out there for us... If we took the time to research, and look at what has been studied and is known of their wild counterparts, we would solve all the problems that we currently see...

I for one am an advocate of offering our captives as many options and available resources as possible, providing the most usable space possible, and am not interested in keeping hundreds of animals, nor am I driven by money. I keep the animals that I keep for the enjoyment of them, the learning experience that they have put me through, and the research that I am conducting on their particular group. I think that people should ditch the 'get rich' mentality(although I am not against people making money off of their passion), and focus on the well being of your animals... Cutting corners to save a couple of bucks, so you can make more in the end, is not fair on the animals that have no control over their own lives... They are not the ones making the choices, you are.. Respect them for what they are, and what they have been for millions of years, and what they will continue to be...

Cheers folks,

Bob

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Treemonitors.com

Bob,

Good post, I enjoyed reading it.

I agree that greed is the primary factor behind all of this but I don't necessarily fault the breeder who has a large collection in spartan conditions. I do question the mentality that then trickles to Average Joe/Jane who just wants to keep a few animals.

I think too often we equate short-term breeding success with presumably "proper" conditions. But nature does not keep score necessarily by short-term breeding success. It's lifetime fitness that wins out in the long run, but that's not always a concept easily grasped by people wanting to know how to keep their het/tang leo or super-duper-freaky-morph ball python.

I totally agree with major points of Bob's post. I was having a discussion about this very subject today with a fellow zoo keeper who happens to be a Uroplatus breeder. Anyway, this can get off on too many tangents but suffice it to say that I think it's mostly snake keepers who're the worst when it comes to rejecting naturalistic vivarium design. That's another topic in and of itself though.

The bearing this all has on selling cages is that I predict selling herp-related products will get progressively harder and harder. Basically I think as herp-keeping has gotten more mainstream there has been an explosion of different companies making everything from cages to foods - this has led to a saturation of the market. A lot of products are good but a lot more are complete junk. Anyway, on to your question.

As to building cages I think as Chris mentioned it's possible maybe to play off of a local market with specialist caging - one-off creations like your Asian-inspired enclosure. However, another example of this back-firing is that another guy I work with built huge, highly-realistic fiberglass rocks as covers for koi pond filtration systems. Unfortunately he had a large unwieldly product that couldn't be cheaply shipped, so it was all local sales. He made and sold about 15 or 20 units altogether and by that time had completely saturated the local market - so, no more fiberglass rocks.

Wood cages are probably not practical except for local pickup so you'd be restricted to selling to your local herper community - again it all depends on how many people locally want to buy your cages. You could set up a specialist caging product website and take orders on commission with the buyers being aware of the potential great expense of shipping large heavy cages. Again there might be a market but probably as Chris mentioned only enough to allow you to cover the costs of your tools perhaps.

I've thought long and hard over the years about making my own cages or some other type of herp product, but alas, I've given up that idea in recent years. I've given up the idea of producing herp products mostly because the market has become so saturated with different caging manufacturers that it's probably getting harder every day for these guys to break even. For every 'big name' cage manufacturer like Vision, Freedom Breeder, or Habitat Systems, there are a dozen or more smaller manufacturers many of whom are only selling knock-offs of someone else's design - a few of them with original ideas or construction techniques/materials.

As to your own cage construction ideas, I would do as Chris suggested and look at your local market - can you make any money selling these cages? Perhaps a better tactic though would be to make more of the cages like your Asian-inspired cage and post photos of those on a website, maybe run an ad on Kingsnake.com to feel out the possibility of doing commissions. Barring that, just take lots of photos during construction an put up a how-to website.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Personally, I don't believe that it is limited to snake keepers, and that it has transpired into all aspects of the hobby.

-People keeping bearded dragons on an inch of sand, preventing them from digging burrows, which we all know they can and will do...

-People keeping leopard geckos in plastic shoeboxes with less than 1 square feet of usable area/space.

-People keeping tortoises on little/no substrate, preventing any possibility of burrowing- which is such a natural behavior, and one of the most important aspects of these animal's lives- their entire survival plan is based around digging burrows and retreating to burrows...

Those are just a few quick examples, but I think we see this poor understanding of captives(what they are, what they do, what they need, etc) in all aspects of the hobby(or is it an 'industry' now, and not a hobby anymore??). I think that people fail to ask the right questions and do not approach problems or misunderstandings from a scientific standpoint. Most people unfortunately look at the proximate causation of problems(substrate killed my gecko), instead of the ultimate causation(improper humidity levels caused dehydration which compromised the organ system of the gecko, thus making it more susceptable to impaction, in turn leading to death). People are so quick to jump out and state the obvious, and they are completely missing the underlying/significant cause of a situation.. People have eliminated science from reptile keeping. I think that, combined with the GREED that we see in the hobby, has hindered its progression and emergence from these "dark ages"..

I also think that "naturalistic", aesthetically pleasing enclosures do not necessarily aid in anything as far as the animal's health goes, except for perhaps opening up/maximizing usable space on the walls(I wrote a decent article on this approach on my website's DIY section), which is a great thing to do. While they are nice to have to liven up an enclosure for our own viewing, I feel that the most commonly overlooked, and most important aspects of husbandry is providing multiple conditions within the confines of the enclosure. Such things as different hiding areas, which offer different temperatures, humidity levels, light intensities, dimensions, etc... Animals in the wild are not limited to a single hiding area, in fact, they will be using many different hides over the course of their lives, to fulfill certain physiological needs at any particular moment.. But how are we providing them with any options/different conditions when we offer them a single black plastic box placed in the corner of a plastic sweaterbox???

Well, i rambled a bit off tangent, but I believe the general message is here.. Treat your animals for what they are...not a 'product' of captivity. Animals do not change molecularly/physiologically when forced to live in captivity.. So why treat them as if they were something other than a wild animal??

Cheers folks, thanks for the discussion... Great post, even though I apologize from diverging away from the original topic in this thread. As for going into the caging business, I have to agree with what Chris and Matt have said.. It's not easy, especially if you are just doing what others have been/are doing.. Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

Take care,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

Again Bob, I have to totally agree. I just pointed out snakes first and foremost because that is where I see the worst when it comes to the whole greed and simple-mindedness. At least with some lizard keepers, tort keepers, etc. many of them do use some semblance of natural design, and at least make some effort to provide a stimulating environment for their herps. The snake keepers are in large part the ones that eschew any substrate in favor of the oh so attractive newspaper, etc. I do think though that there are far too many people who simply don't do the research. You tell them to read and research an animal before they buy but for the most part they read some second-hand erroneous information on the internet and that counts for research. Very few people will actually read multiple sources and try to look at books, magazines, and talk to people who've sucessfully kept a given species over a number of years - and there's certainly far far fewer who would do as I frequently do and go hit the science library of the local university in order to raid the Zoological Record for all the journal articles they can find on their species of interest. I'm going to the NARBC this weekend [mainly to help out a colleague who's doing an educational display], but at the same time I'll still get to see herp keeping in all it's crass commercialism. I can hardly wait to see the latest Ball Python morph!! [note dripping sarcasm in my tone].
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Thanks Matt,
Yes, I also agree with a lot of what Bob stated in his "Rant".
There are breeders and collectors that truly love reptiles and are enthusiastic about sharing this with others. Like everything else, though, tthere are those that jsut want to make a fast buck! "Wow! This guy is selling some of his morphs for $20 $30 thou! I could do that!" NO, I'm sure these folks have spent many years at this an ddid not produce a $30,000 B.P. there first time.
I am just as happy with my Nic. boa "Gibby" that I paid $75 for at a reptile expo as I would have ahd I spent thousands of dollars. He is just as beatiful maybe not as unique looking but he will do just fine for me. I just like snakes! Always have and always will.
I have been talking with a locally owned pet store owner who is enthusiastic about selling these cages on consignment. He also wants me to work on some naturalistic backgrounds and rock formations for aquariums since that is his main interest. He is very interested in this and has really pushed for the quality as well as the saleability and also the overhead cost of production.I find this very encouraging as he has been in this business for over 40 years.
I will also start showing at local reptile expos.
Anyway thanks guys for all the great feedback and comments.

Nicely said...

I'm not sure if you were directing your rant towards me or not. But I totally agree 100% with yourr philosophy. I am truly disgusted to see such beautiful creatures kept in a rubbermaid container stacked be the hundreds w/ a papertowel for substrate a water dish and a cardoard box for a hide. It would not(of course) be economically feasible to house 300 B.P. in individual habitats. That is the downfall of that business, kind of like the puppy mills. Some people are only in it for the money. And tampering w/ genetics ie. Morphs, seems monetarily driven also. Yes they are beautiful and fascinating to look at, but $30,000 for a B.P. Morph. Come on now!
Anyway, I got off topic. I am considering this as a hobby at the moment. I want to provide people with interesting, aesthetically pleasing, artisticly envisioned HABITATS that also provide the animal with a more naturalistic environment ie. proper heat humidity and lighting. This endeavor I have chosen to undertake is by far a get rich quick scheme. I love creating. I love a challenge and most of all I love reptiles.

No, I wasn't aiming that post towards you; I apologize if it sounded like it.. We were sort of on the topic of commercial caging, and I just thougt that I would voice my thoughts and opinions on the current state and current train of thought governing caging that we see in the hobby today..

Sorry if it gave the wrong impression; it was just a generalized rant/statement..

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, you certainly have a good outlook and perspective on things, and are in the hobby for all the right reasons. I wish there were more people like yourself. Good luck in your endeavour, have a great day!

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

Thanks Bob.
I was not offended in anyway by your post and it looks like it has spurred a lot of response. Way to go.
Again my goal is to provide as best of a natural environment for these animals as I can. To make things as realistic as possible.Keep them lightweight but durable. I could go out and gather rocks and logs but they get heavy and there is the question of "taking from nature" which I do have some concerns about. Cna you suggest some good sources for proper humidity heating etc... This is a very important aspect that I DO want to incorporate into my designs.
Again thanks for all the feedback and for voicing your beliefs and opinions.
cdeer

Maybe these guys will be able to help you:

http://www.kingsnake.com/jworlds/

Great idea, keep it going!

Bill

Cdeer,

Contact me off-forum if you want. I have built several automated misting systems for FAR cheaper than the commercially available units - I can give you all the assorted links and instructions to make three different types of misting system setups depending on what you want. Also, I can give you some advice regarding misting system usage in cages as I've had good success with some setups and it's been a borderline disaster with others. By the way, sounds like you have a good start with your local pet store. Maybe we CAN change the hobby - one customer at a time with innovative thinking and instilling a different way of looking at keeping herps.

Matt
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

I think people think too hard when trying to provide their captives with what they truly need, and end up providing things that are of no use to the animals. I think some important aspects which should be provided are, like I said multiple hidespots with varying conditions in each.

What I mean by this, is providing such hides of different humidity levels, hides of different temperatures, hides located at different vertical heights, hides with different light intensities, etc. In the wild, reptiles will use all different types of hide areas according to their needs at any particular moment. They will not remain under the same set of conditions all the time, as they are forced to do in captivity.

You can very easily see this if you go out herping. You'll very often, in the cooler, morning hours find snakes nestled beneath debris/logs/rocks, that are situated in full sunlight, as they position themselves beneath these areas which absorb a good amount of radiant heat energy, in order to aid in thermoregulation and get them 'kick started' for the day. As the day warms up, they move to other locations which help them achieve their thermoregulatory needs at that moment-perhaps a cooler spot if the day should get really warm.

Another important condition that herps will actively seek out on a necessity-based frequency is differing humidity levels. Depending on their physiology, they may need to seek out drier areas or wetter areas. For example, when getting ready to shed, these animals will situate themselves in damp areas to help loosen up and slough off the dead layer of skin. I think that soaking in water is a very unnatural behavior, and is not something that is common in wild herps. We see animals doing so in captivity because these vital options and varying conditions, which an animal would normally use to aid in their everyday lives, simply is not there or provided for them. So, being that there are no other options to help remedy such a situation(shedding) these animals are forced to expose them to whatever type of moisture there is, and in captivity, the only source of such is the water bowl. And how often do we see snakes and other reptiles laying in water bowls for hours/days/weeks at a time? That is considered a "normal occurrence" in captivity, which I believe to a sign that something is wrong with the husbandry.

How many of you out there, have ever come across a snake 'in the blue' sitting in a pool of water/submerged in water-out in the wild? In my many years of field herping, in a broad range of habitats and regions, I have come across many snakes who were undergoing ecdysis, and every single one that I found was situated in a damp location, whether it be beneath logs, rocks, or even man-made debris.. Most snakes that are kept in captivity do not even come from areas where there will be any concentrations of puddles/ponds/standing water.. Not to mention that sitting themselves in a pool of water would open themselves up to predation(especially while "in the blue" and visibility is impaired).

Another aspect governing an animal's choice of hiding location is light intensity. Not all hiding spots in the wild are pitch black, like we offer them in captivity. I think that people have mistaken what the true meaning of what a hide spot really is, in that they think that it is just a dark place, and hence we see a line of very poorly designed and poorly thought out hide boxes, who are basically big, open, dark boxes...which go against the instinctive survival strategies of all herps..

Go out into the wild, and look at the types of hides that reptiles(heck, even mice, rats, rabbits,insects, etc..) situate themselves in, or retreat to when molested or attacked. These are not big, open spacious cavities, like the hide boxes we provide in captivity; they are tightly fitting crevices, cracks, fissures, and burrows, which offer protection and security. Being able to wedge themselves into something, where their entire bodies are pressed against/encompassed by the surroundings gives a sense of relief and security, as the likelihood of a predator getting at them and retrieving them from such a hide is slim to none. Now take a look at the hides that are commonly provided for our herps in captivity- those square black blastic boxes, or large, spacious cork tubes, or those half-logs... These are worthless, in my opinion, unless the animal has to cram itself into there. Most times, people go with sizes much larger than the animal in question, as it has to be "roomy". This is defeating the purpose of what a hide spot really is. By forcing our animals to use these worthless hides, the animals are never really secure, and fear the chance of possible predation at any given time-sitting in a dark, open space could be pretty nerve-racking for a herp..Of course they will use them, but what other option do they have, other than remaining out in the open all the time(an even more dangerous place)?? There we are again, making the choices for our animals, instead of the other way around.

So to sum it all up, I think all of the preceding points I brought up are very important to ensure healthy, stress free lives(or at least as least as possible). It is unfortunate , but how many of these factors do most keepers take into account?? Most people keep their animals in limiting, small enclosures, with perhaps a single hide box, which offers no sense of security, or no difference in temperature/humidity than its surrounding conditions... The animals are forced to live in a static environment, one with absolutely no varying conditions(like would exist in the wild). I blame this on people not doing their own research, or not asking the correct questions, or the fact that most of what is practiced as husbandry today is just copied off the next guy... no real grasp or understanding of the actual animals...

I would love to see a day when keepers really think about their captives in a scientific and intellelectual manner, as it would progress this hobby to where it should be, as opposed to where it's been for the past decade or so... Read scientific journals, field reports, studies performed on wild animals..etc. You won't get far by reading TFH publications or Reptiles Magazine... Open your minds, people, and you can achieve virtually anything...

Thanks for the wonderful discussion, I hope that some of you have enjoyed my thoughts, or at least found them thought-provoking. I found this thread to be one of the best threats I've found on any online fora, as it speaks from an intellectual standpoint, and not a proximate one... Thanks again everybody,

Let's start a Revolution!!! A husbandry revolution!!!!For the betterment of herpetoculture, but more importantly for the captives within..

Cheers folks,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

I totally agree Bob. This was a great thread that answered a lot of questions for myself and hopefully for others. I as a pet owner want to provide my pets with the best environment possible in captivity. I hope others will follow this example.
Add a little flare to that square box, give yourself and your pets a few extra choices other than a plastic waterdish, a plastic tub to crawl under and the daily news to sh*t on.
cdeer

You are the product of eons of evolution and my guess would be the substrate in your house is not natural. Build the ideal naturalisic enclosure, but to be fair to your argument throw in a predator.

But the predator aspect is there in captivity, and is usually a big part in their everyday lives... Us!!

Do you think that reaching into an enclosure every day, and lifting up the animal's hiding area(it's 'safety blanket'), pulling it out to hold it/restrain it, does not instill fear or anxiety in the animals? Most reptiles in captivity see us no differently than they see a predator. We are an added stress/burdon upon them, instilling the fear/risk/threat of predation, regardless of how "tame" or "non-aggressive" the animal is..

We as pet owners, tend to anthropomorphicize our captives, or even place "pet qualities" upon them, as we see in dogs or cats, thinking that they "like us", or "enjoy" being touched or handled. While there are some species which tolerate it better than others and many of which are forced into becoming "tame"(it really is nothing more than submission), the act of being handled and held is a situation in which an animal would only experience during an attack by a predator in the wild.

Captive animals have the same minds, the same reasoning abilities, same intelligence levels, the same survival strategies, etc...as wild animals. They are the SAME exact animals.. So why would they react differently do a situation placed on them in captivity that they are instinctively programmed to feel threatened by in the wild?
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Treemonitors.com

Does data comparing life expectancies of animals in the wild vs. those in captivity support this argument?

BTW, the main point which is not addressed is whether you live on a natural substrate.

I think you are taking this out of context a bit.

First off, as homeotherms, we are able to inhabit much diverse areas, climates, latitudes, altitudes, etc. than poikilotherms such as reptiles(Look at the parts of the world that mammals and birds inhabit, and then compare that to the range of reptiles). We can tolerate significantly more extreme conditions and abrubt changes in the environment, whether it be temperature levels or humidity levels, as our internal conditions are regulated through the internal physiological processes within(homeothermy). Reptiles on the other hand are limited to the areas that they can live in and occupy, as they are unable to control internal physiological conditions, and rely on certain environmental aspects to help them achieve these events(poikilothermy), therefore, we see fewer and fewer reptilian groups/species the further you move away from the equator.

Humans as homeotherms therefore do not have little or no use for "natural substrates", as they do not have to worry about faciltating substrates to achieve physiological goals/events, such as burrowing down in leaf litter to keep cool(we sweat instead-our body helps regulate our internal conditions), having to hide from predators, etc.

You are also failing to realize that we ourselves, using the intellects and thought processes which we have evolved naturally over several million years, to make our own conditions to live in-what is best for ourselves, as we have control over what resources we need to use(even primitive humans had the ability to collect/gather resources to make life easier and more sustainable). Many other animal species are quite capable of doing this,(birds building nests, fossorial mammals building an elaborate system of tunnels and chambers, ants building complex nests with different chambers of different functions, etc.) although not to the extent that humans have devoloped. These animals have constructed these structures/homes to help maintain and offer conditions which allow them a greater chance and decreased cost of survival-thereby increasing their fitness.

The last time I checked, other than perhaps digging a burrow to get out of the scorching heat, reptiles do not perform such behaviors in building or constructing certain structures or conditions which aid in their survival. They rely on the natural conditions/microhabitats which exist around them, to use to complete/facilitate physiological needs.

So here we are, us humans.. Significantly different in our physical makeup/morphology/physiology and thinking abilities..We are quite capable of building our own 'microhabitats' based on our physical needs, within our own houses. We own air-conditioning systems, heating systems/furnaces, temperture controlled systems, humidifiers and dehumidifiers, running water, stoves/refrigerators-for food... These are all products which we have pioneered/engineered through our complex thought processes and thinking abilities to make the cost of living far less than it would be without them(think about having to go out searching for firewood on a cold, blustery day, compared to flipping a switch on the thermostat)... Which is really nothing different than what many other animals have been doing in the wild, except for being much more technologically advanced, and required a greater deal of reasoning and thinking abilities/skills to create. If other animals were quite capable of creating such precise instruments, they would; as survival deals with getting through life at the least amount of cost. If the cost of living outweighed the benefit(life), the animal would die. Species are always trying to move towards efficiency of survival.. Survival of the fittest.. Would an animal with an adaptation that allowed him to perform something quicker be more successful than something which took him longer to?? such as foraging/searching food? The slower animal would be a dead animal(whether it be starvation or predation), which would fail to pass on its progeny.

So to compare lizards or snakes living on natural substrata to humans, I feel is a bit out of context, as there are too many inconsistencies and dissimilarities between us two taxa...

What crucial roles do you suppose naturally occurring substrates have on humans, or even ancestral/primitive humans, when compared to reptiles? as you have paired the two up as if they were both equals in this regard.

Cheers, and thanks for the discussion,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

Lots of people in the world do not enjoy the amenities you describe. Also many of these are modern day comforts we have not evolved to. I am glad to have such comforts and presume a captive reptile has a more secure life than one in the wild. You say (below), we know little or nothing of these animals in the wild so by your description cannot reproduce their natural environment. The only reconciliation to your points would be to not have captive reptiles.

I said that there is very little known about longevity and life expectancies of wild animals. There have been many ecological studies done on many of the 'commonly' seen captive species that are regularly kept as pets, which has been utterly ignored when it comes to captives.

I also never said that it was possible to recreate nature. My points here have been about supplying as many possible conditions that would exist in the natural ranges of these animals. Of course there are going to be many factors and variables that we do not even know about or are able to recreate, but why settle for the bare minimum of what is required for an animal to survive?

Also, as I questioned earlier, where do humans come into play as far as substrates go? What benefit/s do they offer to us, when compared to the needs of reptiles?
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Treemonitors.com

Sorry to have misinterpreted your words which were, "but tell me, how do we know anything about these animals in the wild?"
I would think the sanitaion and comfort benefits of modern flooring compared to dirt would be obvious. The life expectancies of humans certaing have become longer because of unnatural adjustments to our habitats.

The main point was that I doubt you live on a natural substrate.

Actually, mortality rates would be a better indicator.

I do not think that this is an legitimate argument. Has EVERY animal in the wild been tracked, surveyed and observed for its entire life? Does every corresponding wild animal have data relating to its date of hatching/birth and date of death?

How can one go about comparing longevity of captive animals to wild animals. I am not familiar with many studies which have studied life expectancies of herps in the wild, or at least any with a study group(n) large enough which could bear or produce any statistically significant and comprehensive data? Would studying five wild animals give you an accurate understanding of a species? Surely not.

Please find me a study which focuses on longevity of herps in the wild. You will see that there aren't any, or if there are any, they mostly lack statistical significance and thus cannot represent a taxa in general.

Your statement/argument here lacks any evidence to support your claim. Yes, we have a good idea and records of how long most animals live in captivity, but tell me, how do we know anything about these animals in the wild?
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Treemonitors.com

If reptiles reproduce in the wild on the same order of magnitude as they do in captivity, we would be overrun unless mortality rates are higher in the wild.

Of coarse this is not a legitimate argument. It isn't an argument/statement at all. It is a question. Where did I imply knowledge of such studies by asking if they exist?

Thanks Chris.
My first(the gray cage) Was built w/ 1/2" pvc(WOW! way too heavy)
used standard HD pvc cment but joints etc. a little sloppy in places but sanding took care of that.
2nd, cintra pvc small black cage 13"x13"x13" demo for pet store(yes, I have been talking w/one locally owned pet store. He is very enthusiastic about putting some in his store. Wants me lo build a lrgr cage to show.)
3rd Quite an undertaking. Cintra, experimenting w/ welding Bought a cheep plstc weldr from Ebay but my compressor is on the fritz, so I am using a soldering iron Too hot I thnk, kind of messy. Birdseye maple trim.
the Cintra is great to work with but I find you have to be xtra careful so the finish doesn't get marred.
Finishing the edges is tricky also.
very early stages of R&D. Am thinking of HDPE next.
I'm located in San Antonio TX and we have a Reptile show in Nov. I will get a booth to show cages and decorations.
thanks for your feedback. Cdeer

Hey,

I like the looks of those. You should do well. I really like the rocks. Are those painted styrofoam? Derek

Thanks, yes they are. They also have a layer of anchoring cement on them (very strong and quick drying)

Everyone has given you good info, advice, etc. But I say go for it. People like me who don't have the time anymore to build cages or people without the tools will benefit from folks with your skills. Just don't count on too many customers, because alot of snake people want to keep many many snakes each in the cheapest, smallest space available, with no regard to habitat type, etc. Then again, maybe if more natural-type cages are out there and available, the tide will change.

If I could keep just one pair of snakes, in caging that allowed for a more "natural" temp and humidity range for the species, and get great results, I would rather have that one pair only as opposed to all the morphs out there. But, I say this after having lots of snakes in little boxes. I went through it. I saw the lack of purpose after many years. We can keep them alive, and we can breed them, but we still don't keep them true to their natural requirements and their potential to reproduce. It is synonomous with raising a human in one room. You can do it, the human will live. But it isn't the conditions he/she would do their best in.

Multiple rooms = multiple connected cages for one or more snakes. With some cages having higher temps, some lower, some more humid, some less.. That is the answer I would think.
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Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

I just got back into this hobby/business a year and a half ago after being out for 15 years. I got my first python almost 35 years ago, and have kept snakes for over 45 years. While I understand most of the points of view expressed, I think there are only a few items that are critical for keeping animals, especially snakes. Ease of cleaning is the main thing. Not just picking up lumps of waste, but cleaning the entire cage. Water is easy to provide. Hide box....does the snake care what he's in? I've caught snakes in all forms of concealment...does it have to be something that WE find attractive? Plastic tote boxes are easy to clean w/a hole slightly larger than the snake after a full meal. I have all used Neodeshas with a brown paper substrate. The snakes will actually move the box (no bottoms) to a temp they find agreeable. For arboreal animals, a dowel or two suspended above the case floor is still easy to clean, yet makes them happy, and also keeps live prey from the snake. We have to realize that a lot of what we find attractive in a cage doesn't mean squat to the animal. Of course, if you only have one or two animals, knock yourself out....make it look nice, especially if it's on display. I have about 22 animals at this point, and they are all doing well and healthy. While I can't see keeping tons of animals in pullout racks, it's not my job to tell someone breeding a bunch of animals not to use them, especially for neonates. I DO prefer those cages to be transparent, so that you can see them constantly.
If you have a lot of time, and few animals, set up a nice display. That's fine. The snake doesn't know or care if what he's climbing is a natural branch or a precut dowel. If they're feeding and growing and breeding, the cage is working for them. If they aren't, then there's something wrong w/their environment. And to the OP.....please make sure when building cages that they do not retain moisture. Worst thing in the world, and a recipe for disaster as far as bacteria goes. Hmm....I didn't expect to go on this long, lol.

Here you are making every single choice and decision for your animal. Is that truly fair? Are you saying that under the conditions you described that the animals are living in the utmost best physical and mental conditions? You claim that they are "happy" with such a setup as two dowels for perching...Would they not use multiple perches and multiple hiding spots, and would they not use a larger enclosure???

Two big things that you make clear, are that you (1)want something that is easy to clean, and (2)one that you can view your animal all the time. To me, these requirements sound as if these requirements are to benefit yourself(the keeper), and not the animal itself(the keepee).

My argument is that most reptile keepers out there, have this "for the ease of keeping the animals/cost of keeping the animals" mentality- hence cutting corners, eliminating options, decreasing the sizes of enclosures, all to make things easier for you, the keeper, while your animals are at your mercy and live under the conditions that you force upon them. Most of these people, perhaps yourself included, set these 'standards' for their animals, without ever experimenting, or even offering any of the options I have mentioned earlier.

-Would a snake prefer to have multiple branches and perches, at different heights and temperature levels, or just 2 dowels?
-Would a reptile use more than a single hide in its daily travels, or just a single one of a single condition?

Let the animals choose what they will use and what they prefer...

Your mindset supports my argument perfectly, in that living conditions/available options/resources are restricted or denied when keeping a greater number of animals.. As I have pointed out, it is this trend of "keeping more animals, cheaply(which includes your cutting down on maintanence-making cleaning/servicing enclosure), that I disapprove of, as it is the animals which suffer, as corners are cut, and husbandry is skimped on... All because some people want to keep more species than they can 'handle' under more ideal conditions... with the mentality of "it's good enough"...

Why have a minimalist attitude when talking about live animals here.. Would you enjoy, or to use your wording "have fun" living in a closet your whole life? under the same non-dynamic conditions each and every day?? Surely you could survive, and perhaps even breed if given the chance, but would that be a fulfilling, or physically/mentally healthy life??

This is not about providing them with an aesthetically pleasing environment, it is about providing them with what they need and use.. I agree with you there, in that providing a "naturalistic"-appearing enclosure does not aid in the animal's health or wellbeing; it is to enhance our perception and enjoyment of the enclosure. But what is important is offering the varying conditions which I have laid out in this thread. You can go about achieving these conditions through "artificially appearing" methods, or you can disguise them as being "naturalistic". This is not what matters, it is the conditions that are offered to them that makes the difference, and allows the animals to live out healthy lives, both physically and mentally.

Why settle for "it's good enough", when you should be striving for what's best for your animal/s???
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Treemonitors.com

"As I have pointed out, it is this trend of "keeping more animals, cheaply(which includes your cutting down on maintanence-making cleaning/servicing enclosure), that I disapprove of, as it is the animals which suffer, as corners are cut, and husbandry is skimped on... All because some people want to keep more species than they can 'handle' under more ideal conditions... with the mentality of "it's good enough"..."
Sorry, but this becomes a bit bizarre when you think you know exactly what the animals want. It doesn't matter if you disapprove or not. You're anthromorphisizing (sp?) when you decide that you think that you know what the snake wants. It's what YOU want that seems to be important. It's that "warehouse look" that you disapprove of. Fine, but don't come down on people breeding a lot of animals just because you don't like the look. If the animals do well, breed, last a long time in captivity and thrive in a certain environment, who are you to condemn that? Captive animals usually live far longer than wild ones. If it's looks you want, fine, put pictures of their home environment on the back of the cage. The snake won't care, but you'll be happy. How many species/animals would you allow someone to keep, and why should others listen to what you say if that number is less than they have? Sure, it's your opinion, but it's ONLY that.
I think in the long run, people should be allowed to keep whatever they want, in the quantity they want, as long as the animals are healthy. If you want to decorate your cages, fine, but don't tell me I have to do what your do.

what "you" do...not "your". Darn keyboard....

My argument has nothing to do with 'dressing up cages', or making them aesthetically pleasing to us people. My argument is about how keepers(such as yourself) insist that their current conditions are perfect, while at the same time not offering their animals any choices for themselves to make- how they live, what resources/conditions they have to use, etc..

While yes, it is clearly my opinion on how I believe herps should be kept in captivity, however, it is not my opinion of how they live in the wild, what they use, how they use it, their survival strategies, spacial ecologies, etc...you can read up in hundreds of scientific and academic journals/publications relating to herps out in the wild, if you don't believe me. Why would you want to stray so far away from conditions which animals have access to and use regularly out in the wild?

Have you experimented with offering many different conditions within a single cage? Have you offered several, multiple hiding spots, of varying humidity levels, temperature levels, light intensities, shapes and sizes?? Have you ever experimented with offering different "naturally occurring" substrates, such as dirt, or leaf litter?

While for argument's sake, you will probably say yes you have, but chances are, and from the sounds of it, you haven't. You are and have been keeping them in the same fashion as the next guy...no options, and no real experimentation going on there.. The reason why I suspect this, is because if your animals were truly offered such a vast array of conditions, you would have seen that animals will use such varying conditions on a day to day basis, thus signifying their physiological and behavioral requirements of varying conditions. If you noticed them using such conditions, why remove them? Too much of a hassel to maintain? Couldn't see them all the time???

Not to start a fight or anything, but this is what my argument has been about ever since my first response. Why do keepers feel the need to stray further and further away from the conditions available to the animals in the wild, considering it is there that these animals have lived and adapted to their surroundings over millions of years..

Just because your animals live and breed, does not by any means signify that your animal is thriving, or is in the utmost optimal health, whether it be physical health or mental health.. Is your husbandry so perfect, so immaculate, so similar to natural conditions, where you do not need any adjustments/changes?? Surely not... So why the "it's good enough" mentality?.. There is always room for advancement/enhancement in our husbandry... Things can always be better... When it comes to your animals, don't you want what's best for them? or what's best for yourself(ease of cleaning, being able to view them all the time)??

Thanks for the discussion, and thanks for offering your perspective on things. That is what these fora are about.
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Treemonitors.com

An interesting point that Bob has brought up but has been missed by several other posters and even posters in the past is this: many people say that putting in live plants, multiple hides, natural branching, bioactive substrate, in short all the trappings of naturalistic vivarium design, is unnecessary. All these things are unnecessary because the snake, lizard, turtle, etc, doesn't need it. As long as the animal eats, defecates, breeds, it's been provided for. The point that's being missed and that was being made by Bob is that reptiles in the wild are subject to a variable environment with multiple microclimates within their individual territories, and daily changing stimuli. A carefully designed naturalistic captive environment is the BEST POSSIBLE means of achieving an environment for the reptile that best allows it to act as naturally as can be expected in a captive environment. A corn snake housed in a 8 foot long cage that is 3 feet deep and 8 feet tall with a 1 foot deep substrate, a vertical pine tree trunk with branches parallel to the ground as well as a hollow in the tree, burrows at different depths and going to different depths with multiple levels of humidity, along with some low shrubs to mimic understory and lighting to mimic natural day cycles with gradually increasing/decreasing light intensity, seasonal rainfall variations controlled by automated misters, etc. - this is would be the Rolls Royce of cages and would allow a single snake to exhibit the most natural behaviors possible for that particular species. Of course that's an extreme example that few people could afford to create, but I guarantee you it will reveal aspects of that cornsnake's behavior that would never come to light being housed in a 36 inch Neodesha. As Bob mentioned, we need to challenge established notions regarding how we keep reptiles in captivity and literally TRY TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Thanks Matt, great post summarizing everything up. I think if more people starting thinking, coming from more of an ecological and physiological standpoint, this hobby will be much better off, and we will have a much greater understanding of the animals we keep.

It's sad to say, but most people are lazy, and don't feel like putting in the time or effort into researching their charges, like you or I do(I'm not talking Reptiles Magazine or Mellissa Kaplan's Herp Page, people!!), or simply do not have any real grasp or understanding of the scientific method, or how to go about asking the right questions, or even know where to search for the answers..

If we reached only a few people with this post, I feel that we have accomplished something. Like Matt and I have said, THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, PEOPLE!!!!

Cheers Matt, and thanks for the great discussion.

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

My main interest to date is with montane kingsnakes. And yes, it matters a great deal with these animals. Moreso with temps and humidity than with how pretty the cage is decorated. If I could offer them ideal conditions with just a plastic box and paper, then I'd do that. Problem is, it turns out that their requirements at which they do best (at breeding, not just existing) is a bit more complex than 1st thought.

Again, I'm not talking decorated cages. I'm talking about caging that gives the snake a choice of temps and humidity that they might see in nature (even if the snakes were hatched in captivity for generations.)

If I could have a Springtime cage with just newspaper, kept at the right temp and humidity, then maybe a Summer cage equally minimal but at maybe another set of temps and humidity, then maybe a third cage for Fall, etc.. If all that would work, I'm all for it. I can care less about decorations. I want the animals to be the best they can be. Clearly snake husbandry is not as advanced as we think at this time. How do we know? Because of the simple fact that many types of snakes do not do the same behaviors in captivity as in the wild.
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Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

One thing as has been beat to death is the fact that wood caging while is nice and attractive is also heavy cumbersome and bulky. While it dont fit into everyones houshold or "snakeroom" there are those who will pay top dollar for top craftsmanship for furniture quaility caging made with wood to match thier decor. Before going into plastics i was a custome cabinet maker / installer. I started offering custome built to order wooden cages from simple paint ur self boxes to more detailed stained and finished with milled crown molding etc etc fluted coloums and more . While the sales of these online were very far and few the local use was "decent" . when it comes to shipping the custom wood cages you will find that shippingthe " normal carriers" will be very pricey due to the sizes / weights/ and packaging ofthe cages. I once shipped a very very nice custom built 52"x22"30 slding glassdoor cage with hi end rollerbearing door tracks , lighting misting systems etc and heating. From NC to CA with DHL the shipping was if i remember over $125 for it , due to the weight ofthe package and the humans moving it became crushed in the warehouse at DHL. So after the aggrivation of building many hrs into a custom peice to ship it and have it destroyed by the shipper and have them deny the claim due to what they call isufficent packaging ... mind you it was in a wooden crate with 3-4 " of hidensity styrofoam on all sides .

Overall there is that market online but it becomes slimmer and slimmer each day with the lighter easierto move plastic caging offered today. the best and only way i would ship any custom wood orders today would be via LTL freight this would illiminate the chances of damages as they would be shipped on a pallet you packages and wrap/ mark for shipping.

BEst of luck in what you decide
Alan
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Builder of Professional Reptile Enclosures ,Plastic caging , Standard & Professional Breeder Rack Systems[url=http://www.junglehabitatsplastics.com[/url]

"Just because your animals live and breed, does not by any means signify that your animal is thriving, or is in the utmost optimal health, whether it be physical health or mental health.."

Actually, yes it does. Since they can't talk, their only way of showing that they're unhappy is to refuse food, sit in one place all day and never move, not show any breeding tendancies, etc. My animals can move their hide boxes (and do) to different temp variants, bask, etc, because of the temp variants in the cage floor. I agree with you that putting them in opaque shoeboxes all their life is not visually pleasureable, and sick animals can be missed if you can't see the animal constantly (not including hide box time), which is why mine are all glass fronts. All are Neodeshas, which are fine cages. Most of my animals, while some climb, are not very arboreal. I did have a trio of PT Skinks, and had it set up differently, because the animals had different requirements from my pythons.

Just don't condemn people that keep animals differently than you do, if the animals are healthy, is basically what I'm saying... Everyone has their own way, and what works for some may not work for others.

Figured I may as well add a siggy to my posts....
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 MacLotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)

I am not condemning anybody. I am arguing the fact that people do not understand that every reptile does not have the same physiological needs at the same time; much less all species. Your 'sig' proves my point even further.

In your posts, you claim that you keep all your animals in the same general fashion- neodeshas, paper for substrate, a water bowl and a single hide. With the list of species you listed, it is clear to say that they all come from quite varying habitats from one another, say your Aspidites and P. curtus.. Am I wrong here? Are these animals ever really exposed to the same environmental conditions as one another? Temperature, rainfall, relative humidity, ground cover, types of hiding areas, trees...etc? Do you think that they have the same physiological requirements for a healthy and ideal life? Are their true/ideal needs and necessities for survival based on what we perceive them to be in captivity, or how they have been living in the wild for millions of years?

So why keep these animals in the same exact fashion as one another, when it is clear that they come from very different habitats, and are adapted to use each of their particular environments to allow them to succeed. Are these animals exactly the same? Clearly not. The only real similarities that I see between these animals(the snakes you listed) is that they are long and have no legs... Everything else which matters to them/what allows them to survive is different in each species' own way.

This is one of the big peeves that I have with our 'notions' of what caging is supposed to be, and the especially the trend that these commercial cage manufacturers are heading/have been at.. They are making these general,"One Species Fits All" enclosures, catering to any old species. As I have said many many times before,in reality, all species are different, with different needs and requirements. Even species within the same genera can have quite different ecologies and physiological needs. Building a box and expecting all of these animals to thrive in it under the exact same conditions is the wrong way to go about our captives, in my opinion. (Remember, there is a difference between surviving and thriving and it really has nothing to do with breeding)

Instead of generalizing("one cage fits all", I think that we should be heading in the exact opposite direction- designing and constructing our enclosures for a particular species, based on that animal's specific ecological/physiological needs and requirements. Does it not make sense to focus in on what's important to a particular individual/species?

But then again, due to efficiency and cost, people would much rather go the "it's good enough" route, and use the same "one cage houses all" cages to house vastly different species(vastly different needs and requirments) such as Ball Pythons and Blood Pythons...or Antaresia and Candoia...rather than spend the extra money for enclosures properly suited for each species. Does this logic make any sense, if it is the health and well being of your animal which matters?- what's BEST for your animal...? It sure as hell doesn't to me...

I choose to keep my animals the best way I possibly can, which means offering them the ability to make THEIR OWN choices and decisions between utilizing varying conditions and resources in their lives each day; as opposed to limiting them/forcing them to live entirely under my rules(paper, a water bowl, and a clear hide). Choices people, choices... that is the point I am trying to make.

And to let the record show, I am not saying my husbandry is perfect by any means. My husbandry is dynamic and constantly changing, as I am constantly studying my animals, learning from them, testing to see what works for them and what doesn't- what they use, how they use it, when they use it, etc.. Like I have said(a million times already), an animal's needs are not static at any given moment, day, week, month, year....; they are quite dynamic. Your husbandry will evolve(if you allow it to), according to your animal's needs throughout its life. You'll need to experiment and test things.. unfortunately, you seem pretty set on not changing a thing with your husbandry as it is apparently perfect. Such a mentality does not offer much room for learning or gaining a further understanding of your animal/s.

Good day, thanks for the discussion. I hope that I have made it clear that I am not condemning anybody, I am merely voicing my opinion of how I believe that most people are missing what's really important with their captives. You can very well come out and bash on me if you want, stating that offering your captives choices to make between conditions and resources is wrong, and unnatural... but I don't think that you have any real support or evidence to back up such a claim.

Nothing regarding a reptile's life is static, yet why do we perceive that everything is when it comes to our captives???

Cheers mate,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

"You can very well come out and bash on me if you want, stating that offering your captives choices to make between conditions and resources is wrong, and unnatural..."

Actually, I wasn't bashing you, but it seemed to me you were dumping on people that didn't have the "natural" look to their cages, or kept a lot for breeding.

"but I don't think that you have any real support or evidence to back up such a claim. "
Which, curiously enough, is exactly what I thought about what you said in the beginning, and is what prompted my first comment. And the bloods have warm moist spaghnum moss in their hide boxes, following the instructions that were in the Jan 03 article in Reptiles mag by Pro Exotics, which, I assume, you are also against. ("warehousing" for breeders)

As noted above in other posts above by others, snakes require very little stimulation to thrive. If I find out they need to be read Keats before bedtime, I'll do that, but I'm betting the Jungle Book passages w/Kai in them would be prefered.

Just kidding.....
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 MacLotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)

But what drives me crazy is seeing a 8' burmese or boa in a 20L aquarium where the snake can't turn around. I bought a pair of 8' Coastal Carpets at the local livestock auction! and one had a 2' long burn scar from the heat rock being used w/no controller....and IT was in a 20Long tank!
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 MacLotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)

Again, it seems as though you have missed my point. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with providing a "natural" look to one's cage, nor am I bashing those who keep lots of animals for breeding.

My point is that people like yourself fail to offer CHOICES for the animals themselves to make, as far as temperatures, humidity levels, light intensities, different sized and shaped hides, etc.., stating that your husbandry is perfect and "good enough", where the animals within need no further adjustments or resources.

I personally do not think it is fair on the animal to limit what they can or cannot use, therefore I offer my animal many options.

That is what my posts have been about.. about offering our captives some of/as many choices as they would be seeing in the wild as we can possibly provide. And I will repeat again, it has nothing about how "natural" looking an enclosure is. Achieving such choices is just as possible or feasable with ugly, non-natural looking objects and materials.. The point is FUNCTION... Not fashion before function...

Cheers,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

I didn't miss your point...I just read what you wrote.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 MacLotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)