Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,
I recently talked to Terry about this when 2 of my females that were almost certainly gravid. They went into prelay sheds but in the following days never laid and appeared thin. In his experiences, he mentioned it may affect future breedings because the eggs would still be in there or reminants (makes sense). Most likely they wouldn't have been completely shelled or they would have trouble with impaction, correct?
I had a similar thing happen this year with a hypo female that looked very gravid last year and didn't lay. She passed meals, as did the other 2 this year, and her activity was normal. She bred and became egg bound.
My concern is for next year and if they will experience the same thing. I contacted my vet for some advice (still waiting to hear from him) but I'm curious to see if others have experienced this and if the females the following year had trouble depositing eggs.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

thanks
mgl

matt's quoted me ok but i'd like to elaborate. I have also observed this phenomenon often referred to as "resorbing their eggs", where an apparently gravid female doesn't lay and then skrinks back to normal girth.

I have several theories:
1) these females actually lay and eat their eggs: the eggs are gradually digested and the snake gradually shrinks. On at least two occasions such egg eating has been reported.
2) the snake isn't really gravid (containing eggs); it's merely ovulating. The swelling is of tissue accommodating the onset of reproductive activity. Bumps can be felt that are ova, not eggs. For unknown reasons the process does not proceed to fertilization and shelling. In the absence of that progress, the process eventually reverses, tissues shrink, ova shrink, perhaps to be saved for the next year, perhaps passed in some inconspicuous way.
3) eggs are actually shelled but retained. tissues shrink but the eggs are still there. My vet reports finding eggs in a female that, based on condition, he believes are eggs from the prior year. Sometimes these retained eggs become septic, the focal points for infection, thus they're not merely benign.

Like Matt, I look forward to others' experiences, opinions, etc.

peace
terry

I can feel some small bumps but they don't feel like normal eggs. I tried to do a comparison with females that didn't encounter anything. I contacted my vet tonight and am awaiting a response. Another observation I forgot to post was that in the days when I was expecting the eggs (7-10 post shed), the females were hovering in their shed boxes. One morning I went to check and they both nearly took my fingers off, again associating the opening of the cage with feeding time. They weren't fed anything after they refused food after appearing gravid.

Did you get my message--2 girls is the verdict

thanks
mgl

Hi mgl,
I also had a female this year that was most certainly gravid and never laid her clutch. I knew she was gravid because I was able to palpate eggs before her pre egg laying shed. She also appeared to thin out within a month afterwards as your female did. I can now palpate what feels like small lumps within her upper reproductive tract. I fear that these are calcified eggs and may cause egg binding if I attempt to breed her again. It makes me wonder if egg re-absorption occurs during early stages of egg formation, and that egg calcification happens in later stages. Can you feel anything when you palpate your female? Could anyone else elaborate on this subject?
Josh

it makes sense with Terry's theories. I am worried about theory 3 and my only experience with my egg bound hypo hondo this year.

thanks
mgl

I know this won't help but I will tell you anyway.
I had a young corn that breed to small in my opinion and after laying her eggs I pounded her with food. She did what comes naturally, she laid another clutch. More food means conditions are right for babies so she processed more eggs. My response to this was to remove her from any room with males and feed her even more. She intern produced more ova but didn't seem to have any sperm to fertilize with so she held the ova.

These where the size of fully formed eggs in my opinion and never shrunk at all. Further more I could count them, I believe it was 14 eggs. She was never in the room with a male until the following spring at which time due to lack of cages I put her in with a male and 34 days later i got 14 eggs. She went on to double clutch that year and seemed to form up ova again but not as large. The hurricanes came and took my roof last year and in moving the cage she was in got broken and she disappeared along with two other females. So i have no idea what happened this year.

I believe in captive conditions this happens more than we know. Not the multiple clutches but the carrying over from one year to the next of ova. I have seen what i thought was just that in two other collections and in one instance i counted the eggs in November and this spring the snake had the same number as what i counted. I think it has to due with the fat content of the females and the lack of exercise. They don't need to save the energy that they give to the eggs so why reabsorb them?? though as I said before I may be crazy

So that should really mess you up. LOL

Later Jason

Here's what happened with some of my eggbound females...

I had an albino female in her first year of breeding in 2002. She dropped only slugs. The next year she dropped some good eggs, but was eggbound with one. I palpated it out and it was a calcified egg which I think was from the year before. Apparently I palpated too hard and tore her oviduct as she died the next day.

I had a female hypo that was eggbound last year. I didn't want to risk hurting her, so I had the vet aspirate the egg. However, she never would pass the shell. Eventually it moved back up the oviduct to her midbody area. I feared the worst during this year's breeding season, but she dropped a clutch just fine and I never did see the shell.

I then had another female get eggbound this year with a really huge egg. I decided to not do any intervention. Her egg also moved back up the oviduct to midbody after a week or so, then later on I found the shell in her cage (I had not aspirated that one).
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

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Hi Terry,

I was wondering about the concept of some female hondurans after an obvious mating, able to retain sperm from the male only to develop during the next season. When this happens, is there a visual or physical manisfestation of this phenomenon... like if I can feel some bumps (not really as big as eggs, but seems like ovulation without resulting into egg development, is that a possibility of sperm retention only to be laid the next season)?

Thanks,
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RAY

>>I was wondering about the concept of some female hondurans after an obvious mating, able to retain sperm from the male only to develop during the next season. When this happens, is there a visual or physical manisfestation of this phenomenon... like if I can feel some bumps (not really as big as eggs, but seems like ovulation without resulting into egg development, is that a possibility of sperm retention only to be laid the next season)?

I don't see any reason to think retained sperm would create an observable sign. Ova aren't generated (in my uneducated opinion) in response to the presence of sperm, but rather in response to environmental conditions, etc. We know a snake can ovulate and never be introduced to a male--you'd feel bumps, even see the physical manifestations--but no sperm would ever be present. So imho, there'd be no outward sign of whether or not a snake was harboring sperm that could be used to fertilize the next year's ova.

On the other hand, as observed in this thread, MAYBE sometimes ova from one year are retained & shelled & deposited the following year. Maybe. So in that case, a situation like you're describing could exist--resulting in deposition of good eggs next year. But are you going to withhold males from her next spring in order to see whether or not she lays good eggs? That test would be necessary for you to advance a theory about her producing based on sperm retained from this year.

terry

So in that case, a situation like you're describing could exist--resulting in deposition of good eggs next year. But are you going to withhold males from her next spring in order to see whether or not she lays good eggs? That test would be necessary for you to advance a theory about her producing based on sperm retained from this year.

===> Actually, I was not thinking of withholding males from her to prove the theory noted above. It's more like in the lines of what if she mated with a different male the following year... would that mess up your intended type of offsprings not knowing that last year's pairings from a different male is interfering with this year's pairings due to last year's sperm retention?

Thanks,
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RAY

>>===> Actually, I was not thinking of withholding males from her to prove the theory noted above. It's more like in the lines of what if she mated with a different male the following year... would that mess up your intended type of offsprings not knowing that last year's pairings from a different male is interfering with this year's pairings due to last year's sperm retention?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>-----
>>RAY

Excellent point, Ray. I'm going to start a new thread & see if we can get feedback that would provide insight.
terry

but i was wondering, after reading this the thread.

Does any one have a theory, what is the reason one female will
have eggbound and the other to lay her eggs perfectly? the size of the female? the number of eggs? low temperture?

and what is the best solution for this (eggbound) problem?
what you should do if you find your female with a eggbound.

thanks
Nevo schwartz

I have a female that for the past three years was gravid each year. I could clearly feel each egg, but she never laid them. This past year she had her first clutch, but they were all infertile. It certainly seems that females can re-absorb almost fully-formed eggs. My best guess is that maybe the eggs (or some of the eggs) are infertile and it is more resourceful for the female to absorb them than lay them.

That's my theory.

Tim

This happened to three of my snakes this year.

One, a female black milk had her last egg get stuck just above the cloaca. For some reason she did not like her eggs box set-up because she waited until day 18 to finally lay 7 eggs and then the last got stuck. Vet removed this via surgery and she's doing fine now, eating, etc. This was her first year breeding and she was a five year old black milk. Plenty big, etc. Other black milk in identical set-up laid a dozen great eggs and is almost ready with her second clutch.

Second was a three year old hondo that reabsorbed her first clutch this year. Like others have reported, she swelled up, I could palpate what I thought were eggs, she went into her shed and then nothing. So I continued feeding and then she went into what would be her second clutch cycle, laid six eggs but I could feel two small masses far up her oviduct and she went off feed. So 7 days later vet removed two normal looking eggs via surgery (the eggs were infertile but looked fine) The rest of the clutch is fine and should hatch in about a month or so.

The third snake was another female hondo, four years old, her second year breeding. Last year, two great clutches. This year, one great clutch of eight but she must have retained one egg far up in the oviduct. I assumed she was simply ovulating maybe again. She went off feed and two months later vet removed one large and putrid egg from oviduct. Everything was healhty and blood counts came back nornmal. No sign of infection and she's eating again.

All of these snakes are large so I'm thinking that traditional rack caging set-up plays a factor in long muscle fiber development or lack thereof. I'll add more structure (cork logs) to their cages and see if this continues next year.

This was a very expensive experience but the best thing overall for my snakes.

Rob

Snakes cannot reabsorb an egg once the shell has been laid down, however if the female has just ovulated the ova can be sloughed out and you may never even know it was an egg. Once the shell is formed the egg must come out one way or the other.