Reptile & Amphibian Forums

how can you people posibly keep them dont you have that fear of getting bit?? are they agressive..i have a rattlesnake its head is in a jar full of achol and the body is hanging up on my wall...

A lot of people do get tagged with rattlesnakes. I used to have a pair of Hopi rattlesnakes and a pair of Arizona Black rattlesnakes for years and I finally gave them away last year. I never had an incident or close call, but with family visiting we just didn't want to take the risk.

A friend of mine from Germany, Markus was tagged by a Mojave this summer in the field and died. A couple of years ago we had a couple of people from the Arizona Herpetological Assoc (AHA) get tagged, one from removing a WDB from a wire fence and one from changing cages. Also that summer a friend of mine was tagged trying to scoot a WDB off the road. Randy Babb (AZ G&F) was also tagged that year.

So either in the field or in your herp room, the risks are there, and it happens to some of the most experienced herpers.

Kerby...

Frank (FR) may not appreciate my memory but even he has gotten tagged. Twice with me,while out road cruising, Frank got tagged but both bites were dry (no envenomation occured). He wasn't quite so lucky in the front room of his apartment. He got tagged by a Western Diamondback on the hand. I can still remember how much it swelled. It looked like a catcher's Mitt!!!! But luckily there was no tissue damage that was very noticeable. If he wants to share what he was doing when he got bit he can tell that part of the story. Really, though, with as many Hots as Frank has handled in the last 40 years he has a remarkable record for not getting tagged. But it is not uncommon for people that deal with venomous stuff to get tagged.

Pat G-C

What...is this the Halloween thread?

I have kept rattlers for over thirty years and never got bitten. I hate to see spooked out threads like this, because they promote fear that is ridiculous.

Keeping hots is not for everyone. But when done, CAUTION - Not Fear is the additude. A cool head and an attention to what you are doing makes the difference.

I ask myself why keep guns - Thousands more are killed by them. Why drive? Hundreds of thousands die from accidents. Why go outside? There's lightening, bee stings, dog bites.

One or two (average) people die each year from snake bite in this country. A large percentage of those were bitten in the wild. More people are killed by horses, sports...the list goes on.

Smart snake keepers run no risk of danger if they follow a simple rule:

If the snake cannot reach you then you don't get bit.(hooks and tongs people)

I follow that rule religeously. Proper training and protcol makes this a far safer hobby than commuting to work on our highways (something we dont often think of).

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Thinking about the first post I have to wonder. On that thread there would be more people who could answer the question.

Also the bit about the head and skin seems deliberatly provocative.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Consider, this is a herpers forum. People keep snakes. Most are very aware of the realities of rattlesnakes. In others words, its conversation amoung fellow herpers, not a scare piece to the uneducated public. Get a tad bit of security in your life. FR

Then would it not make sense to post this in the Venomous forum where he would be more likely to get answers from actual rattlesnake keepers?

That is why we have Topics listed. So people can discuss specifics.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

It also says we are only suppose to discuss the keeping and breeding and conservation of KINGSNAKES, hahahahahaha your not doing that are you?

You do understand, these forums are so slow, that a snail goes faster. So a little change of pace is great. IF indeed, this forums was very busy with current kingsnake material, I am sure we would be discussing that.

All and all, we are reptile folks talking about whats on our minds, Enjoy FR

It has been pretty bland. But take a look at the mole king forum...that's R.I.P.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

**One or two (average) people die each year from snake bite in this country. A large percentage of those were bitten in the wild. More people are killed by horses, sports...the list goes on**

The number of deaths may be true .... BUT here in Arizona over 100 people get tagged by rattlesnakes every year. Most mat not die, but they incur terrible pain and suffering and huge hospital bills. Death isn't the only deterrent.

Kerby...

And if you check, you will find that the vast majority of those bites are to people who can't keep their hands off of snakes they find either in the wild, or that have wandered onto their property. Frequently, these people are drunk or kids that don't know any better.

Nothing to do at all with the actual keeping of these things by resonsible herpers.

Bites are never good, but as I said, there are far more lethal practices people do without all the fuss about danger.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Kerby...

Didn't miss it...just put it in the right perspective.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Not the "right" perspective, BUT "your" perspective

Later, I'm done with this thread

Kerby..

If ya get bit by a hot ya did something wrong.

Kerby, The point is many things we do have dangers. But no one is BooHooing about them.

That you are saying that is just "MY Perspective" is a very immature comment.

As to doing something stupid, you don't have to have a snake to do a lot along those lines.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I am dumbfounded by your logic.

Take the percentage of people who drive and the number of deaths and compare it to the number of people who keep hots and those who get bit and I'm sure you wil re-think your argument.

The same goes for bee stings and dog bites.

The bottom line is that if you keep hots you are putting yourself at a tremendously larger risk of dying from envenomation.

I've only kept one hot in my life (a cerastes in high school) and he got me in front of my biology class.

If you deal with hots frequently your chances of being bitten go up with that frequency. Mostly because of the level of comfort you reach from that frequency. The snake is always consistent. Just ask Sigfreid and Roy.

My logic?

about 42,450 people die in the USA from traffic accidents. Every thirty minutes some one dies from the mixture of driving and alcohol. 14.9 per 100,000. die.

Now less than one actual {snake keeper} dies from being bitten per year - The majority of bites in this country are still from wild encounters. In just Florida we have well over 500 licensed keepers. Ther have been no deaths (from keepers or civilians in years).

That "tremendously large risk" simply does not exist.

Sigrfried and Roy were dealing with an animal that weighs up to 500 lbs and was a predator with great mobility and strength. There was lots of hands on interaction.

That's something that good snake keepers don't do. Like I said. For almost forty years I have kept and never have I been bitten. Why? Because I remember the cardinal rule: If you don't get in range-you DON'T get bitten.

It is ridiculous to even include Sig and Roy in this disscussion as keeping big cats is nothing like snake keeping.

Reality check....Please....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Looking again at your post I am troubled about the Bite you mention. As it was in high school - I have to ask, what was a teenager doing with a venemous snake in class in the first place?

Before you critisize others, I suggest you take a second look at why you did things that we experienced venemous keepers have repeadedly warned against doing.

In my state minors are not allowed to keep venemous snakes...and we would never carry an animal like that to school.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

My cerastes bite was 20 years ago. I was 17 and the snake was part of a school district sanctioned research project. The teacher was the one who got me into herps. The bite was a result of another student distracting me, and my overconfidence in my ability to stay out of range of the snake. I'm sorry to have troubled you.

No one is trying to take your snakes away from you, so I don't see why you are being so defensive.

Your logic is still skewed. If you keep bees, you will be stung. If you train guard dogs you will be bitten. If you drive you will eventually be in an accident. If you keep hots, your chance of being bitten is much larger than mine.

I think it's stupid to take that risk. Just like it's stupid to ride angry bulls, jump out of perfectly good airplanes, and jump off of bridges with rubberbands tied to your ankles.

Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it a good idea.

Enjoy your hots, but don't try to convince anyone that it's not dangerous.

Ok....Where did I say there was NO DANGER in keeping hots?

That's news to me. My point has been that people engage in MUCH MORE DANGEROUS ACTIVITIES and no one makes a fuss about it.

My logic is sound. From your comments though you seem to not be able to get what I am saying.

Anyone who has read my many posts in this forum knows the stress I put on safety.

So for you to say I claim there is no danger is tottaly off the wall.

I keep Cerastes cerastes. It takes a certain profound carelessness to get in biting range of one of these. None of mine have even struck at the hook when I move them. I also keep Crotalus cerastes and once again, proper aplication of the hook makes them perfectly safe-unless you are trying to milk them or grasp them to display their fangs.

"Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it a good idea..."

Then I suppose we could really get protective and ban Football, baseball, or any other sport that puts people at risk.

(Funny...didn't hear anyone cry that auto racing should stop when ol' number three died).

The point seems to be here that people who engage in activities that are not familar to others are viewed as reckless.

One venemous snake experience does not make you an authority. I am a ex Zoo curator and have been a licensed keeper of hots since you were in diapers.

As to defensive. We are watching state by state pass laws that not only prohibit venemous reptiles- but also many python and Boa species. Much of the mommentum they gain comes from scare tactics like what is used on these forums. We have had Peta and other animal rights groups troll on these pages, trying to provoke just this kind of idiocy. Reason enough to be cautious.

If you really have an issue with venemous then why not address this on the proper (venemous) forum where I asure you-there will be more people with informed answers than what is coming up here.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Fuuny you want me to respect your knowledge of reptiles when you can't even spell venomous.

If you go back and read all your own posts, you will see that you have proven my points all along.

Only 42,500 people die in car accidents annually when millions upon millions of people ride in cars every day.

In the whole state of Florida there are only 500 people keeping hots. Multiply that by 50 states = 25,000 keepers. 1 in 25,000 is not good odds.

That doesn't include everyone who was bitten and lived.

All I was saying is that keeping venomous snakes puts you at a tremendously larger risk of being envenomated than a person who doesn't. You can't control every second of life. Accidents happen.

If you smoke, you might get lung cancer. If you speed in your car, you might crash and die. If you keep rattlesnakes you might get bitten.

Why put yourself in that situation? I won't, and that's just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

As far as regulations go, I am all for your right to keep them. But I won't support your rhetoric.

A sure sign that someone is insecure in their position is when they leave the arguemnt that they pursue to nit-pick.

Gee I slipped and used an E instead of an O That certainly means you are oh so right and I am wrong...

I'm impressed? (lol)

You actually made my arguement when you said:

"You can't control every second of life..."

Thats the point. You can walk out of your house and be hit by lightening. It happens more often than snake bite. We had ten people here killed by lightening just last week. I suppose we should not go outside?

As for your statistical mis-use of what I wrote:

42,500 die from auto accidents. That is not counting more than triple the amount that are maimed by cars. (two can play that game).

No one that I know has died (and I said this before) of snake bite in Florida for the last few years. Sorry when you are comparring 1-4 deaths (if that) nationally on an equal standing with 450,000 there is really no comparrison.

As far as my rhetoric goes...Again, a cheap shot used to back up an unsupportable position.

I'm not impressed.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Don't you think you would have more success with an argument like:

Only herpers who have extensive training should handle or keep venomous reptiles. Instead of trying to convince us they're not dangerous as long as you're careful?

If every average herper kept crotes, you would have a lot more deaths. Accidents happen.

Again you try to twist my words. Where have I said Joe fresh off the street has any business keeping hots? Again if you read my posts I constantly argue for proper training for anyone thinking about keeping.

I suggest that you can spend a few minutes reading in the venomous (see I can spell it)forums where it is not difficult to find such posts. As it is I have been fought with for discouraging newbies from keeping hots.

This whole thread is supposed to be about those of us who do keep-not Joe who has a chance encounter. Aside from the illegals and wackos which I have no control over, the Hot keepers are very responsible-trained people. Many have quit when it became a safety issue (wife-kids).

That's a far different thing then the irresponsible image that the animal rights groups try to pin on us.

Why should I lie? People get bit from doing stupid things. If you are careful then Yes...there is (minimal) danger.

Again...If you don't allow it in striking range, then there is NO Danger. Know your animals striking range and keep out of it. Proper instruction in hook and tong use also greatly reduces risk.

A smart keeper minimalises handling. I have handled more than many keepers in bad conditions as I captured many rattlers in the wild for the Zoo and for animal rescue. By practicing safe protocols I have maintained my spotless record.

In all it is still far safer than driving on our roads.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

stay out of the water! I can't understand why alot of people do alot of things that are have possible dangers-bungee jumping, sky diving, diving with sharks,run with bulls in Spain etc. However I do not past judgement on them for whatever they find plesure in. I do not EVER try to talk anyone into aquiring hots. I would like to say that rattlesnakes in America is something important in our heritage that needs to be preseved.
No good "Western" was filmed without a rattler & it almost apeared on our flag(don't tread on me!). Without us Hot keepers & breeders alot of people would destroy them with there "round ups".

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norcalsnakemaster@comcast.net

looks exactly like the kind i use catch, years ago.

When I tossed that giant speckled to you, dang, it should have nailed you. Whoops or me, I tossed it bare handed. Hmmmmmmmmm now that I think about it. It should have nailed me.

Ok, OK, I got nailed around 7 times, and only two hot bites. I did go about thirty years without being bitten. Then four years ago a blacktail like the one pictured nailed me. It was its fault, I swear. hahahahahahahahaha. That one only gave me a fat hand for a couple of days, no anti-venom for me. Anti-venom is far worse then the bite. In this case, it was this ozzies fault, I took him bush and he wanted to see this darn snake. I was only picking him up, and not prepared. So I tailed the dang thing, slipped, tossed it up in the air, you know, like that speckled, and it hit me on the way down. I give the snake a 10 for that move.

It did remind me, that I should try an avoid these events, while as fun as they were, and they were fun. I had a ball with the last one. I really should not tempt faith in such a fashion.

I have been working hots in a field study for 14 yrs and have not been tagged. The reason is, In that case, I am both mentally and physically prepared. I carry tools to work the snakes, and we use team work to handle and take data. In other words, the study is not a game.

Lastly I am very glad I experienced hot bites, but enough is enough. I would not have liked to go thru life as a herper, and not experienced the ultimate herp experience. Thank goodness, mine were not serious events. But again, enough is enough. hahahahahahahahaha

So my advice is, if you keep hots, learn the right methods, obtain the right tools and cages, respect the animals(we should respect all animals) and do not bait or tempt them, like I do people on these forums. After all, their bites are different. Cheers FR

you best stay with the monitors,lol,and no offence intended.

You know, like a virgin, hahahahahahahahahha, like the very first time. Ok, then I forgot again and again.

Actually you are misguided. I am a rank amatuer, if you consider who my peers are, folks like Wes Dickenson(RIP, Cobra) Grace Wiley(RIP, cobra), Bill Hasse(over 100 bites), Ross Allen(over thirty bites)(i use to work there) Etc etc etc.

So while I am slow to learn, I am one of the faster in my group. hahahahahahahahahaha

Besides, if I did not do that, I would not have founded so many kingsnake species in captivity. It could have been rattlesnakes instead, except they kept biting me. FR

I even got bit by a prici michawanis(sp) while catching a thayeri. Or was it the other way around.

Besides, As I said, it was not so bad, I get hurt much worse on a monthly basis doing any sort of thing. After wrestling, all this is kids stuff. FR

Slowinski, he got a cornsnake named after him, it can happen to the best.

no comment. Made me laugh though lol.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/19 NEW PICS/INFO

a ringneck named after you some day,lol

That'd be pretty funny. Pretty cool too.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/19 NEW PICS/INFO

died from a venomous snake bite, i don't think it's worth it.

I can see it now....Diadophis fezdonii Named for the herper that tried to feed an eastern Diamondback to a Regal Ringneck and was bitten by the Regal that was fed up with all the strange foods it was being stuck with..

(sorry Mike....couldn't resist!)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

.

Nice one.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 9/19 NEW PICS/INFO

Hey, I knew we had more in common! It really wasn't funny for me, and I was not as focused as i should have been, but losing 2/3 of my index on my right hand has added the other challenge to become more of a lefty! Not the smartest thing I ever did, and certainly most of my friends and family will never understand my fascination with these reptiles, but as stated previously, more frequent and potentially hazardous events are chosen by the masses without considering the consequences. It is just the way it is for them, yet they cannot fathom my choices to let it be a part of herping. I was allowed the opportunity to share my experience with many kids that winter and hope to have added caution to their way of thinking. It is one thing to say it is dangerous, and something else totally to show them what can happen when being careless! But this incident will not stop me from my love, only alter the approach!
Todd Hughes

That's a cool looking Blacktail. At least it looks like one from the pic.

The one's around here in Prescott, AZ are really green.

Kerby...

Yeah, it's a blacktail, my first. Pretty docile snake, never rattled through capture and handling. I need to get down to Az. some time.
Todd Hughes

>>how can you people posibly keep them dont you have that fear of getting bit??
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Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

Fear is what you make of it. Do you fear sitting in a car?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

To the original poster, if you aren't comfortable with rattlers, then give them distance if you should encounter one in the field. You've got to respect these snakes; they are incredibly interesting. And I hope your pickled rattlesnake head is from a roadkill or something..

I've been bitten once by a banded rock rattler, fortunately a dry bite. I've been barely nicked by a sidewinder. Both small snakes, both a case of me getting too close but not paying close attention.

Had I maintained a safe distance, I wouldn't have had the above experiences. It is that simple really. Never had an issue when I used tongs.
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Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

Kid thats trying to start trash. How many words did he spell correctly and the lack of any punctuation ( sp ) ( lol ). Did you also notice the original poster never came back to ask any real questions from the post. Side note ---- Frank i thought you were going to have a booth at the tuscon show ???

That's about what I was suggesting and got my fanny spanked by FR for it (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

hey i was just wandering and so what if im 14 im a big snake fan and i just whanted to know a little more about snakes!! and my dad is a firefighter so he gets a ton pf calls about rattlers so he brought the parts home for me. i didnt whant to start anything. again i just whanted to learn a little more but its hard when so many people argue about who knows what. and i didnt respond because i was in school. so next time consider if its someone whnating to learn a little more rather than someone trying to start crap.!

innocent mistake or mix-up of forums, No big deal.