Reptile & Amphibian Forums

let me start off by saying that i never wanted kids and up until this point i have kept true to my word. "sterling" is now my kid. i say that because i would imagine that a new parent would act the same crazy way i have been since i purchased "sterling". watching every move and behavior, listening to every sound, and waking up in the middle of the night to make sure he is ok. i never thought i would be that way and my boyfriend surely didn't think so either. i am happy to say that i have been one of those crazy and paranoid "parents" because i feel that there are alot of people that own these tortoises that don't give a damn nor take the time to do the research to care for them properly. i am happy that i can come here and get advice and comments from people thati i am sure feel the same way i do. it's helpful because i know noone that owns a sucata. now that i got that out of the way i am happy to say that "sterling" received a clean bill of health from the vet. he has no parasites, no respiratory infection, and the doctor said i have a fine specimen. he said i was doing everything right and as far as the humidity goes he said little to no humidity. i want to thank you once again for the sound advice. it is nice to know that i can get advice and help from fellow owners any time i need it. i will be sleeping soundly tonight now knowing everything is ok.

Thank GOD!! I am so happy to hear that all is well. It doesn't bother me one bit to pay my vet for a wellness check up because then like you I have bought myself a good night's sleep. It's so worth every penny if for no other reason than giving peace to ME!

I freely admit that am one of "those people."
When I found the Internet in 1997 the very first place I found through a search was a turtle/tortoise forum. I never left it until it went down the tubes. Then I came to this one for the same reason:
I have stuck with Internet forums because I have found countless numbers of people who ADORE their pets as much as I do mine, I seldom find people like that in person. Here you are, another person like me.: E
It's too bad that most of us never meet people in person who are like us.

My children have 2 to 10 legs, none of them are human it's the lovebird who has 2 legs, the hermit crabs have 10 lol.
Sometimes I feel like I go overboard with them but then I think to myself isn't that better than not doing enough for them?
Yeah I may be crazy but my pets are beautiful & I don't mean just in my eyes. I can look at them objectively, I have to in order to spot any problems.
I compare them to other people's pets of the same species & when I see how much better mine look than their's look then I think I'm doing it right.
When my vet tells me that my sulcata is the most healthy sulcata patient she has even though she came to us badly pyramided 3 years & 3 months ago, then I know that my "craziness" is worth it.
I'm very happy to meet another person who feels the same way!
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PHRatz

I am sooooooo glad to hear all is well. I am the same way as you, although I do have a heathen 2.5 year old daughter "helping" me out with my guys!! She is going to be just as bad as me. She will sit and watch "her" turtle, our female that was born one week before her, and come get me when she "poo - poos" so I can get it out!! She torments her, but what is amazing, the tort actually likes her. Her table is in my daughters room, and she can be in her hide sleeping, but when my daughter comes into the room and she hears her, out she comes to the door wanting out. They have grown up together and are so cute. I also breed bearded dragons and have almost 20. I have learned through the years, DO NOT sit and guess about what is going on. GO TO THE VET!! I learned this the hard way when I brought in a new dragon without a quarantine period. Soon after he passed away. I assumed he was sick when I purchased him and did no follow up. Soon afer, I lost my very first female I had ever had. She was my baby and this devestated me. Needless to say, I took her in for a neocropsy and found that my entire colony was infectied with hookworms. If I had only quarantined that new male, or took him in for a neocropsy, I could have saved my old girl. Of course she was 12 which is pretty old for beardies, but to this day I blame myself. I am lucky. I manage a pet store ( not the horrible iguana selling, no UV light kind of pet store either) that is located inside a vet clinic. So I am constantly bringing in stool samples and checking them and have a decent herp vet that I consider a close friend and co-worker. BUT... in my business I see IDIOTS every day, that no matter what we tell them or how many care sheets we hand out or how many vet seminars we do, refuse to invest the time and money needed to properly care for their animals. I won't even sell Sulcatas in my store, because I feel like a 100 pound tort with a 100 year life span is not a commitment to be made on an implulse just because it is cute. It is disheartening at times, but I have to remember all the herps I have helped by informing owners that had purchased them from horrible pet stores the correct way to care for these awsome animals!! I will stop rambling now, but I just wanted you to know you are not alone!! And I am SOOOO glad everything was ok!!

I'm so sorry you lost your dragon to hookworms.
I wish a pet store like yours could be found where I live. The few that are around here are horrible! I don't buy reptiles, actually the way things have worked out I don't need to, I end up finding them or they get dumped on me.

I did have to buy rats from a pet store though because I can't find a breeder for them & it turned out they were all sick. The vet made the store pay the bill for treatment but it took months to get them well after losing 2 of them in the process.
That store is the only chain store there is around here.. the rest of them are horribly filthy mom & pop type stores. I don't see how they stay in business. :-x
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PHRatz

I am so lucky. I started working at this store in college, and worked myself up to manager. We were purchased back in 1998 by VCA... Vetarinarian Centers of America. They own 300 vet clinics across the country, and we are one of the two pet stores they own. Basically just because we were in the building when they bought the vet practice. It is awsome because we have vets right there, so our animals are allways taken care of. My small staff is very well trained. I started there as the "reptile girl", so that is my favorite area. It kills me though, some people just don't understand. This store opened up in the neighboring city a few years back. It is horrible. And they specialize in reptiles. They are basically a bunch of scary rednecks. They keep hot snakes there, mountain lions, and weird stuff like that... so people go. But they don't take care of anything. It is horrible. 16 foot pythons in 55 gallon tanks, uromastyx and bearded dragons in the same tank, dead rabbits in their snake tanks that are rotting. People buy stuff there because it is cheaper than my stuff, then show up at my store with a half dead animal asking for help. They send chameleons home in 10 gallon fish tanks, and as far as I know have NO IDEA what UVB means. Keeps our herp vet busy. This store has even been busted by state wildlfe and animal control before, which you think would shut them down. It kills me. And customers don't understand that you can buy a wild caught ball python for next to nothing, like he does, but it isn't going to be healthy and probably won't eat. Mine are farm raised in Louisianna and are fat, healthy and ALLWAYS eat, but of course are almost $40 more than his. All my birds I sell are vaccinated, and all my reptiles are dewormed which makes them more. I guess smart people realize that quality costs... but I just wish all stores could be like mine. Most aren't though. That is why I hardly ever mention the fact I work in a pet store... lol. Most people see that and get visions of their local horrible stores and pass judgement on me for it. Oh well, if only we lived in a perfect world!!

it sounds like you have a great job and work for a great place. i am a little nervous and paranoid because i know of no one with a sulcata and the only thing i am surrounded by are those horrible petco and petsmart stores. i had one awsome reptile shop with owners that knew what they were talking about but they had to shut down because of lack of business. it was probably because there prices were higher than these chain stores but as you said "you get what you pay for". i purchase everything i need over the internet now. food, lighting, thermometers, books, everything under the sun because i don't want to support those chains. i have to admit that if i need something right away i have to swallow my pride and buy it from a petco or petsmart because i have no other choice. as i mentioned in my previous post, i took "sterling" to the vet and he received a clean bill of health. it was the first time that i have been to this vet and i am nervouse for this reason only...he had told me that sulcatas should be in little to no humidity and now i am being told that my hatchling should be in high humidity, 65-70. shouldn't he have told me that when i was asking him? should i look for a new vet? i have no idea where you all are located but if you know of any good vets or shops in the NJ or bordering PA area i would love to know.

OK.... I have actually been driving myself crazy with this. In my eyes the jury is still out on your vet. I am in the process of tracking down more information on humidity with these guys. My herp vet said the same thing yours did. Little to no humidity, and I know he is good. I took him a copy of the articles and he and I are both doing some research on the topic. VCA is a pretty big organization with alot of vets, so we are contacting some of them that have seen sulcatas for various ailments in order to get a more well rounded view of what is the proper condition in regard to the overall health of the torts. I had concerns when I read those articles on Sulcata station. First, why would you keep an animal in a completely different situation as you would find it in the wild? Humidity even in a burrow in the desert would not be that high. The most important thing we are taught with animal husbandry is the closer to natural habitat the better for the animal. Second, the study done about pyramiding and humidity scared me as well. More factors were at play there than the humidity levels such as light sources and dietary supplements. It was almost like... yeah... go ahead and feed them all the dog food you want and as long as you keep them wet they'll be fine. I do not believe that. My vet or myself have yet to find any follow up information on that study which was conducted in 2003. Where are these torts now? And most importantly, did the high protien and excessive hyrdation lead to renal problems? This was only one study. That is the one and only reference so far I have found suggesting the high humidity. So I am still searching. One thing my vet said that made me think was that he had seen far more torts with resperitory infections from increased humidity (especially here... we are in the south) than he had seen dehydrated. So I will keep you updated on what we dig up. Oh and as far as those big pet chains... I HATE THEM TOO!! They have killed most pet stores that had any idea what they were doing and replaced them with a bunch of idiots that have no idea what you need. Luckily one hasn't moved in that close to us yet, but I am sure when they do we will also be in trouble. I try to stay competitively priced, but these guys will move into a town and sell their hard goods at cost just to close you down. And people fall for it every time. Then after they have stolen all the small stores customers and have shut them down, they jack their prices up twice as high as the small stores were in the first place! It is sad. America just ain't what it used to be!! But that is a whole other post!! LOL!!

>>> I had concerns when I read those articles on Sulcata station. First, why would you keep an animal in a completely different situation as you would find it in the wild? Humidity even in a burrow in the desert would not be that high.

I'm not going to disagree with you because I don't have the answers to these questions either but I wanted to share an observation from my perspective because I live in a desert.
Our soil is sand, just plain brown sand. I can't grow any plants that require another type of soil. They just won't grow.
From what I've found through reading it looks like our location is very similar to the natural environment in Africa where sulcatas are from.
It's so dry here sometimes that the grass crunches when you walk on it but start digging a hole & you'd be amazed by how damp the sand is the deeper you dig. Sulcatas can dig burrows 50 feet deep, it's pretty darn humid down there where the sand is moist.

>> The most important thing we are taught with animal husbandry is the closer to natural habitat the better for the animal. Second, the study done about pyramiding and humidity scared me as well. More factors were at play there than the humidity levels such as light sources and dietary supplements. It was almost like... yeah... go ahead and feed them all the dog food you want and as long as you keep them wet they'll be fine. I do not believe that.

I didn't take that away from the article when I read it. One thing I have noticed in the wild ornate box turtles I find here is that almost all of them have some degree of pyramiding. Nobody has a definitive answer yet for what actually causes pyramiding but I do wonder if lack of water & humidity do have something to do with it. The box turtles in the wild here don't get much water to drink and the majority I see have lumpy shells. They eat a higher protein diet than other box turtle species, they are ornates which are the most carnivorous of all the North American box turtles.
I've known people who've found baby box turtles on their property, they've tried to raise them inside the house and they lost them when they kept them in dry conditions.
The box turtle websites all recommend keeping hatchlings on damp sphagnum moss to keep the humidity up. I wonder if desert tortoise sites are really that far off when they recommend the same things? I don't know.. I'm just rambling off my observations.
I personally haven't taken any hatchling box turtles out of the wild to try to raise so I couldn't say exactly what these people who did that did wrong.
As for sulcata tortoises..ours was already about 10 inches long when she was found but she only weighed 9lbs. She wasn't a hatchling though so what caused her pyramiding? Was it lack of humidity, too much protein in her diet? I'll never know because we'll never know who raised her to be so unhealthy then threw her away.

Here's a lumpy desert ornate box turtle photo though so you can sort of see what I'm talking about.

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PHRatz

>>I've known people who've found baby box turtles on their property, they've tried to raise them inside the house and they lost them when they kept them in dry conditions.
>>The box turtle websites all recommend keeping hatchlings on damp sphagnum moss to keep the humidity up. I wonder if desert tortoise sites are really that far off when they recommend the same things? I don't know.. I'm just rambling off my observations.

Something just occurred to me after I wrote this then left to feed animals. I opened the front door & saw that Hobo, our male box turtle's little head was poking up out of the ground. He spent the night last night in an abandoned Mexican ground squirrel burrow lol.
Baby box turtles spend the first year or two of their lives mostly underground where it's much more humid. They're safer from predators that way so I wonder if baby sulcatas do the same thing in Africa?
If so that may have a lot to do with why some websites recommend high humidity for hatchling sulcata pets. I wish I could better describe just how damp it really is the deeper you dig into the sand.

Hobo has some pyramiding too. He's been a wild turtle roaming my neighborhood for a few years, he's been coming here to my house bumming meals & water for those years. Before we built the new solid fence he used to break in to the old one. I'd fine him here wondering around inside my yard & he'd never refuse a meal or a puddle of water. He's so cute!
The only reason he's here now is because so many people are building new houses & moving in with lots of dogs. Hobo was taken from the mouth of a dog, we couldn't let him die so going against what we'd normally do, we put him inside our yard for good. This is a photo of him:

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PHRatz

It would be a perfect world if pet stores were always owned by vets! You are so lucky!
The chain pet store here uses the same vet I do for their exotics. They bring in half dead or actually dead reptiles to her all the time. I was in there yesterday to pick up a form from the vet for something that had nothing to do with a sick pet but as I stood there waiting to get that form, I noticed on the sign in sheet that the pet store manager had been there again.
The other pet stores around here are so horrible I don't see how it can be legal for them to stay in business. Sick, dying, poorly cared for animals sold by people who don't know jack. It's pathetic.
I wouldn't expect every pet store employee to be an expert but wouldn't it be great if at least the owner or manager actually knew what they were doing?
If at least one person at the top knew what they were doing then that person could train the people they hire. It's great to hear that at least one place does that.. but too bad they aren't all that way! Ahhh what a perfect world it would be.
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PHRatz

so, should i or shouldn't i make the humidity higher? i have no idea what to do now. also, should i look for another vet because he told me little to no humidity even though i have a hatchling?

many thanks,
tara

>>so, should i or shouldn't i make the humidity higher? i have no idea what to do now. also, should i look for another vet because he told me little to no humidity even though i have a hatchling?
>>

Tara I would make sure the humidity stays in that 60% or so range if it were me. I found another couple of articles you might find interesting from The Tortoise Trust.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/drink.html

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/microclimates.htm

I have to say I tend to believe a lot of what Highfield has to say because I know that a lot of reptile vets believe in him. My own vet went to a continuing education seminar about 2 years ago where Douglas Mader AKA the God of Reptile Medicine was one of the speakers, even Mader recommended Highfield info as a guide for tortoise/turtle keeping. If The God supports someone, that's saying a lot.

As for changing vets, I wouldn't do it just yet. I don't agree 100% with my vet about every single thing so I talk to her about it. We look into whatever it may be together then reach an agreement. They're human & they cannot possibly know every thing there is to know about every animal species so I like to discuss things with them, show them info I've gotten, and I won't change vets unless I feel they really don't want to listen or I feel like they aren't putting out the effort for my pet that they need to.
I left the last vet for 2 reasons. The main reason was he wouldn't go out of his way to do anything extra for my pets, the other reason was he wasn't truly a herp vet. Then there was the money. I was paying amounts that I felt were way too much for so-so service.
The reptile/exotics vet I use now will special order meds if I need them.. the old one wouldn't & that's what I mean about putting out extra effort. If I need a medication they don't have in the office, then get it!
The one I use now will get on the Internet to communicate with other vets, make phone calls,.. she'll do whatever it takes to make sure we solve a health problem.. the old one wouldn't.
The old one would listen to me, the new one will too. Neither has the 'tude that they are some sort of pet God so I like that about both of them. The bottom line though is that I get better service from the new vet than I did the old one. I get what I pay for.
Before you look for another have a talk with the one you've been using & then decide what you should do.
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PHRatz

i sincerely thank you for sending me those links. i read them and they were very informative and make a lot of sense. i bought a humidity thermometer today. it is reading 40 at the moment. i will begin spraying the table tomorrow with water. as far as my vet goes, i am going to take your advice. i actually have to stop there tomorrow so i will question him more about this. i have not seen my tort pass urates in over a week. is this a good thing or bad? this means he is well hydrated right? i just want to make sure i am reading this all properly. sorry if i am driving you crazy with all of these questions. i am a new sulcata owner. i have had red foot torts and box turtles but this breed, the sucata, seems less "forgiving".

You aren't driving anyone crazy with questions.
I was out of town, got to see a group of sulcatas while I was visiting a zoo
How did it go when you saw the vet again? Did you come away from that feeling like you need to find another vet or were you happier with him/her this time?

As for not passing urates.. has it happened yet? Mine does this I believe once a week or so. I always judge how normal or abnormal it is by how moist it is. Generally when I see toothpaste like consistency then I don't worry about it. Dry I worry, but she hasn't passed dry urates in a long long time.. so basically I don't pay much attention to how often I see it because I don't see problems with it.
She's big though & makes a big mess outside.
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PHRatz