Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I will assume you are refering to the ads Jeff Alloway and I are running on KS in regards to snow prices.

First let me share with you and everyone I have invested over 15,000 in snows over the last three years. Yes, 15,000 just in snows. I produced my first snow this year and called everyone that pre-ordered with me the year beforefor one. Everyone of my pre-orders backed out. They all stated the snows are a dead end project, they have no color, no pattern etc. They would prefer to have nice tangerine albinos and apply their deposit towards them instead.

I talked with Terry Dunham about what I was experiencing and he said his orders for snows were way down from previous years.

I offered my snows to many different breaders at whole sale under the table and they all refused.

I alone know there were over 50 snows produced this year, and thats the ones I know about.

When I did Daytona this year I saw over 20 snow out on tables. Ranging in price from 1100 to 1400. At the end of the show every snow was still sitting on there table. Not one was sold.

I have discussed this situation with many well know breeders and they all say the same thing. It's the economy, the cost of fuel etc.

Others say the snows are not selling because they have no color or pattern. They added they were rare at one time and marketed very well by Terry D. thats what sold them.

But when I put a pair of Tangerine Albinos on the net for 1800 "they were really nice" plus shipping I sold both pairs in the same day-within hours I should say.

I just did the Tampa shaow and again I offered my 05 snow under the table and no one wanted them.

Terry Dunham even had a snow on his table, first time I have seen that and he left with it.

Beleive me everyone I am not happy with what is happening. I thought I was going to make my money back and then some. This has me very upset.

I am not in the hobby of raising baby snakes, when I produce them I want them gone with-in a resonable amout of time.

I think the market is changing. Everyone seems to want Ball Pythons reason, they have end-less color and patterns. This is were the market is right now color, and pattern.

Don't shoot the messenger. I don't like it either.

I will say now what I have said since Daytona - if I or anyone else is offering animals at to low of a price "Then you buy them from me and sell them" not one person has taken me up on this offer.

I offered 1 to 20 snows to a very well know breeder before I started advertising them at a lower price for $500 each. He turned me down. What does that tell you.

I am hoping that when we start producing triple homo snows it will create a demand again for snows, like when the anerys dropped and were restarted when the snows came out.

In any case I hate that this is where we are, but advertising snows for 1500 each day after day or week after week isn't working either.

If anyone would like I will send them the snakes I have for sale that are offered at what is being called a ridiculous low price and when they sell them they can pay me. Problem is they may be adults before they sell at the rate things are going.

I wish all of you the best with life and the hobby. Remember it's just a hobby, I think this investment idea is way over stated.

John Lambert

I appreciate your responce. But what about the Ghosts, and the other morphs following the Snow? This is what I really do not understand...I mean we have Vanishing Pattern Ghosts, and soon Extreme Hypo type Ghosts. Awesome snakes...in my opinion prettier than the Snows. Tri Color Hypos....new possibilities....so why would just the Snow ruin the market as it appears? Not too mention triple hets falling too???? I encourage you to post pics of adult Snows. So the babies are not too happening...the adults are awesome. I have seen nice Pinks and Yellows and the babies are deceiving in comparison. I think this snake has lost its appeal due to the consistent posting of babies as opposed to adults. I understand wanting to move snakes in a certain period of time, but I myself enjoy having babies around...it is part of the fun of breeding. Thanks for posting, and please post some pics of adult Snows. Tom Stevens

Tom,

You might be right about posting pics of the adults. I will do it tomorrow afternoon. I do not think most people understand how beautiful an adult snow truly is. I have several adult females that have such beautiful yellow and pink and even blue tones. When I bought my breeding stock years back I knew the price would not be 1800 each as I paid but I was shocked when I saw none of them sell at Daytona. The year before there were only two snows at Daytona. Shannon Brown and Jeff Alloway bought them first day at asking price. I waited before posting my 2 female snows on KS to see what others were asking. I only saw 1 or 2 ads asking 1100 to 1400. Then I saw ads for a pair at 1350 shipped. Thats when I listed my females for around 1300 each. I did not receive a response so I ran it again and again.
After talking with some very well respected breeders whos names I will not mention they to were going to reduce the price of their snow stock in responsed to the market not buying them. They told me every show they went to they were not selling snows, ghost or even hypos unless they looked extreme. It all boils down to supply and demand. From what I have noticed at the shows every colubrid breeder now has BP's. So I think those that would have normally bought a snow for 1500 are instead buying BP's. The public seems to really prefer balls over colubrids and the dollars breeders are investing seem to be going into balls as well. I was shocked at how fast the price of hypos and ghost dropped - I have never had a ghost so don't blame me. I bought hypos for 500 over the last three years and could sell any of them. I had to whole sale them. They were nice looking big babies and I was asking just 150 for females and 125 for males, pairs were 225. I did not sell any of the 12 I produced. This was over a 5 week time period.

A response to this tread mentioned the extreme or VP Ghost. You put one of those on the classifieds for 1500 and it's gone.

So I hope everyone that is pissed understands it's not me or anyone else driving down the price on Hondurans, it's the market. The market and it's buyers dictate price not the seller. Sure you could ask 1650 for a snow but if you never sell them does that make them worth 1650?

I understand lowering prices to a degree, it just seemed like a huge fall in a short period of time. I also agree many people are working with Ball Pythons...and do seriously wonder if many colubrid guys are throwing in the towel to work with them exclusively. I know a few who have. Now the newer Honduran morphs...the VPs and Extremes...., do you not think people will think twice about buying into those after seeing what happened to the market this year? I tried to point out[and I know you mentioned something similar in your responce] that what happens off the net is obviously not for all[meaning the people that mnake up the market]to see...and you can price as you like, which you and everyone has every right too. I specifically mentioned the classifieds because this is where I see the problem. It seemed to start a chain reaction of blow out prices, and I have to ask why was this so neccesary? Why did it have to be in bold print day after day...saying "hey! I still have these and they are getting cheaper by the minute!". It makes me think some people were so used to making big money and making it fast that they got fed up over the course of a few weeks and said the hell with this, I want these things gone. In my opinion that is not exactly the impression I hope to see from people working with animals. You can see on here many people into snakes really get a lot out of producing them, and show thier pics with pride and if anything seem like they are happy to keep their offspring around for a while, not shove them out the door. I am sorry to hear you had lousy luck after a productive year. We compared this to the Ball market, and I can tell you the guys with patience seem to in the end get their price, or close enough too it, without taking such a huge chunk off their asking price. Like I said, it was a chain reaction, and race to see who can blow their snakes out the fastest, and you may be right. Sitting on them does no good when trying to make money, but the way this year panned out it made something that was considered rare and valuable look like a joke, and that stinks. Tom Stevens

Tom,
Do you own any snows? Why? I have had snakes since I was young but this year was my first big production year.

I am not sure what in your collection or it's size or how long you have been breeding and selling reptiles.

I hate to mention names out of respect, but Shannon Brown, Don Shores, Jeff Alloway, Bruce Skipper have all lowered their prices on everything and these are well know many years of experience breeders I talk with on a regular basis.

I alone have not set the price of any animal, I simply have followed suit.

Don Shore posted a pair of snows for 1400 well before I lowered my prices.

What I am saying is, these are big names in the Honduran market they have more to lose then you or I. If they are lowering prices and we are to follow maket prices as you have stated, would these not be the people that are setting them? Not me.

I produced some VP albinos this year which I asked a hi price for and got it. I would not have taken less. Like you have said I would have enjoyed watching them grow.

I have 3.5 adult snows and 2 female het snow. I have had my fill of watching them grow. I have more to lose then anyone here. I problably have the largest adult snow collection in the world.

THINK HOW I FEEL.

Next year I will produce around 45 snows. Would you like to reserve 1 or 2?

I am uncertain why you are saying I assume you are the one to blame for this? I never said anyones name. I am friends with a few big name breeders myself, and I am aware of people in your shoes and how this is affecting you as well. As I said I am sorry to hear about this. Not only for myself....but for everyone including you. I only own 8 Hondurans, many of them are not even breeding size. I have around 60 snakes in my collection. I have been keeping snakes for 30 years but have only been breeding for 5. I myself have had to lower my prices along with everyone else, and have heard the same from other friends. What is the most annoying part of all this is every other time I have some intereted potential customer to buy a snake they throw it in my face how someone on the classifieds just lowered the price again. So though breeders are talking about this problem, it seems no agreement on a new market price has been set, and it's a free for all and get rid of em as fast as you can before you get stuck with them type of thing. This is the real problem. If many breeders saw this coming and many speak to each other about things like this something of a more reasonable price may have been salvaged instead of this situation. Too late now, and as I saw it...and I am sure many others did too.....it seemed like these snakes were rare investment animals one minute and just any other snake the next. Just two years ago there was supposedly not very many Snows in existance, last year still not all that many. But this year what happened? They hit the magic number and passed the stage of rare and are now common? It does not make much sense. Talking about markets crashing....and also about patience....can you imagine how many people will buy into Ball Pythons and fail miserably? Or end up barely breaking even? If those people are not soured on breeding snakes....it is likely to think they just may come back to colubrids. Who is to say they may not even come back and get into Hondurans? We can never know, but for all our sakes I hope you and I and everyone into Hondurans gets what they want out of all this. Tom Stevens

I can remember about 15 years ago an unnamed fellow first was breeding HYPO coastals(then considered albinos).$600 seemed too high for me at the time so I waited for the price to drop over the years.It never did.The price remained consistently high and they hold their price even til today because of 3 reasons.
1) Breeders would conspire to hold the high price--to a point of RELEASING het babies rather than lowering the price.BAD IDEA.
2) Coastals are notoriously difficult to start-which some breeders are working on.More babies die than make it though.
3)MOST IMPORTANTLY--these markets were artificial.You had to sell the snake,unlike today with the internet pics,they didnt sell themselves.With most breeders the art of the sale is lost to apathy or even refusal to TEACH,nuture and develop relationships beyond the sale.You should be encourging the newbies rather than keeping up with the BP Jones's.If you make good relationships you make much more than a sale.
But as these very real markets plunge the prices I suggest that the hondo has more of a chance to go by the way of the burmese python market without proper management.Like the corn snake,at some point the purists will step in.With the blowout of morphs the surest increase in this or any market will always be in high quality NORMAL phenotypes.
The uniqueness of tricolors is over.But why not encourage more people with cheaper snakes than fewer people with more expensive ones? Jeff

I am with you on this, and I hate the term customer service...so we'll say I am always here for people after the sale and many customers become friends. I spend a lot of time making sure newbies know how to care for their new pets, and go out of my way to be helpful. Understand the majority of snakes I have produced to date are priced between 15 and 50 bucks. I have some much pricier projects coming up but up til now I am just working with cheaper stuff like Mexican Black Kings, Corns, Southern Pines etc.. I never make it to my local herp club meetings but we have a message board and I make it clear I am always here to offer help with everything from husbandry info to fecal exams and force feeding. I was just let down by this whole Honduran thing, as it seemed like such a drastic change from one year to the next, it is discouraging...but I will continue to work with them as I really enjoy keeping them. Tom Stevens

With the blowout of morphs the surest increase in this or any market will always be in high quality NORMAL phenotypes.
The uniqueness of tricolors is over.But why not encourage more people with cheaper snakes than fewer people with more expensive ones?

You mean like $2000 wild caught eastern milk snakes?? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA! Ken

if this were true...then it wouldn't matter what the snakes were selling for.......

Another quality of coastal breeding that has kept their price fairly stable (though its no longer 600 ) is that they require a certain amount of patience. Neonates aren't hard to raise but do require a fair bit of TLC and in my opinion they don't do well in collections where production is the focus. I have 1.1 hypos and 2.2 hets from outcrossings to diverse locality lines. Generally though I only breed hypo to het and only 2 females per year which gives females every third year off. I have a non breeder friend who takes most of the hets at a jobber rate which generally leaves me with 5 or 6 neonates to get started and move. Given the price they bring and the fact I'm working with just a few animals I've no problem working with them for as long as it takes to place them. Maintaining prices doesn't always come down to creating an artificial market sometimes its jsut recognition of reality and not over producing.

"Investment" to commit in order to earn a financial return.
That's what I'd call three years and 15 grand! But you just produced one and raising to sell is part of the deal. When you lower the price I don't think your enticing anyone, If they have money and they want it they'll get it wether it's 650 or 1650. You should keep prices as high as possible and wait, until when I don't know. I was on your list but Don Shores hatched me one first( I guess thats a good reason to breed ealier and raise incubator temps). Anyways 650's not bad considering albinos and anerys are about 150-200 each for a hatchling, BUT when you consider Hand feeding them and Hand cleaning their cages the price should increase rapidly. I see your 05' male is 2 G's you've been taken care of him. Well I've got my pair and I don't think a honduran collection is complete without them!
Dave Stevens

I think he's going to corner the market on vanishing albinos! I'll give him a couple hundred for one, maybe two!!

I am not selling you any of them.

As with anything being sold, it's supply and demand. Look at the Tickle-me-Elmo doll a few years back. Everybody just had to have one, and there were not enough to go around. These stupid fifteen dollar dolls were selling for hundreds, and yes people were buying them. So the factory goes into overtime and produces billions of these dolls and floods the market, and suddenly (almost as suddenly as they appeared) the phenomenon was over. And yes there were a lot of people upset and mad over having paid hundreds of dollars for something that if they had just waited they could have had for nothing. So then no one buys them anymore and they sit around and take up space, so the company has to eat it's investment and liquidate the remaining inventory just to get them out of the warehouse.

Same thing with the snakes. How many people (seriously now) can afford several grand for a couple of baby snakes that in 3 - 5 years would finally be able to recoup some of the initial investment? I know I can't and probably won't ever be able to.

I'd kill and give my right arm for a pair of snows, but even with the current prices I'm dead in the water, and apparently so is the rest of the snake keeping world, which is unfortunate for those who did invest in the snow project years back.

Bottom line is do you want to raise them up to adults while trying to find a new home for them? Probably not given the room required, the maintenance, and the feeding.

There is no governing body that says how much you have to sell your animals for, if you can sell them for $2000 then more power to you. If not, can you justify having them sit around for years waiting for that special buyer? You wheel and deal to get them gone and move on to other projects.

I myself would be more interested in trading any young I get in the future for other herps and supplies rather than try and get rich off them. I see them as a means to expand my collection without any additional cash input.

Would I love to quit my day job and sell herps for a living? Heck yes. Is it a realistic thing to do? Probably not.
-----
"Colubrid-aphilia", adj; An inordinate love of Colubrids.

Guys, I remember back in 1991 when myself and a couple other people invested large amounts of money for the first available Andean milks by way of sealed bids. This was advertised as a breeding investment which would easily allow us to make back what we had initially invested into them. The sealed bids came to $1000 each for these snakes, and I ended up getting 1.2 of them. The price stayed here through at least 1993, but then in 1995 as we who had initially invested in them and were getting ready to produce our first clutches, the price dropped to $275 each, and even to $250 if quantities were purchased.

The reason? The initial $1000 price tag was expensive at the time and no one wanted to pay it, so the original breeder ended up sitting on large numbers of these and still no buyers. As those of you who have kept Andeans know, these will eat you out of house and home. So in order to sell these animals that were now being raised to make room for other projects (the albino Hondurans had just hit the market and were priced at $3000 each), the price got dropped to a level where these could be moved out.

Those of us who made the initial investment (mine was $3000 in 1991) were bummed. A couple of the other initial investors like myself did not even make back our initial investments. I do not harbor any ill will towards the original breeder, it is just one of those things that happens.

I certainly sympathize with both sides of this issue, but it is not the first time the milks have done this, and probably won't be the last either.

As they say... "supply and demand"

Scott Ballard

You hit the nail on the head. There is a similar discussion on the Ball Python forum right now... It's all about supply and demand, and it's time for some of these prices to come down so that the next level of the pyramid can buy the animals.
-----
Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Myself and other well known breeders have discussed not being able to sell some snakes during the summer when the market is flooded with new babies, and the consenses is ,if you hold on to your hatchlings for a while (after tax returns come in) you'll be able to sell the remaining offspring. People will have some money to spend and there won't be nearly as many snakes available. So if you have the space and can feed the stock, then just hold on to them for a while and be patient. Don't get too excited because they are'nt selling at the speed you want then to.

Wayne Sanders

Wow, Wayne. What do you call that?

Scott

I hear that, and once November hits I also face the fact that christmas is around the corner and chances are sales will be slow for a while. It also is pretty much a fact that in spring females from the year before sell well. That is one hell of a snake you posted, I have never seen one quite like it. Awesome.
Tom Stevens

you got the right idea...

but forget about that... that is a killer Honduran!
-----

Thanx
Royal Blue Reptilez
Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic
~ZF

That is a striped/vanishing honduran! It will unlock a whole new group of morphs, striped albino, striped ghost, striped who knows what!!! I'm going to work on getting a pair right now!!!
Dave

It's not from the Osbourne striped/vanishing line and is not related to the Norn Damn line. I don't know if the original breeder want's info on them out yet. But what I can tell you is that as an adult the color has stayed very clean. They are from the dream line, I beiieve. Thank you for all of the kind comments.

Wayne Sanders

.

Exact!

Sorry brian fart!

Well, here goes. I posted a pair of snow hondurans for $1400 on KS and got no calls. I know of one guy in Daytona who I was told sold 2 pair of snow hondurans for $1500 a pair and he's a ball python guy. Anyway early this year I had bought all of Byron Barnes adults thinking that I would recoup all of my money this year on the snow project. I produced 4 snows and sold 1 pair and traded 1 female. I received 3 more snows and haven't even had a bite on them. I know the market dictates what people will pay for animals and maybe I jumped the gun on the price. The market seems to change all the time. Last year I saw ghosts males going for $500 and I have sold pairs this year for $1000. I know what people are saying about holding onto animals for some time but say I keep feeding 200 hondurans for 4 to 6 months and then still can't sell them then I am out even more money. We never quite know what to expect on animals in the future. I actually may not even recoup the money I spent on Byrons animals but such is life. I just take it in stride as that's the way the market goes. I usually always sell all the animals I produce just sometimes it takes longer. Seven yearsgo or so I spent $4000 on a pair of albino nelsoni and if I would have waited 6 months I could have bought them for $500 each, maybe the same ones. I know I lost money then but I still sell them and may make my money back someday.

I was blown away when I read the post that started all this.
You got guys on here complaining about the price we are advertising animals for that do not have even half the animals or dollars invested that you, or I do. I have more to lose on the snows then anyone in this industry. I have not lowered my prices simply to move animals, I have lowered my prices because no one is buying snow hondurans period. I do not care if I have 1 or 20 I did not produce them so I could care for them for months until hopefully someone decides they want one. I produced them for the joy of it. Now there are here and I want them gone. I, you no-one person controls this market and what it does from year to year. We are slaves to the buyer. When times are tuff and animals aren't moving you have to lower prices. Look at what the car industry is doing. Maybe they should just hold all their cars and trucks and someday someone will pay asking price.
I sold a couple of animals to Ric Blair last night. "Hope he is not made I say this" he told me he was offered snows for 400 each months ago and he turned them down. John Schmidt also told me he was offered whole-sale snows for 300 each and he to turned it down. This was way before Daytona or any ads were ran on KS.
If the new price for snows is 750 or 450 it's still a nice amount of money for a colubrid. And they in my opinion are worth every penny. It was suggested to me that I post pics of the adults. I think that is a great idea. Maybe we need to display our adults at the shows so buyers can truly appreciate the beauty of these animals. When next years babies are produced think of how snows there will be? If we cannot sell the limited numbers we have now what will we do next year? I think that lowering the price just makes sense. More snakes produced - lower price - public buys - more money in our pockets by simply numbers sold. I wish Terry D would add his 2 cents.

I have brought up some valid points, and no one has really answered my questions.
Why were these snakes considered rare investments snakes one and two years ago and why are they worthless now?
I am also wondering why the Ghost and other morphs came down so much and is being dragged down with the Snow?
Now Jon, you are really confusing me on this point. In two sentences back to back no less you say..."I produced them for the joy of it. Now there are here and I want them gone.

You produce them for the joy of it but now you want them gone? Yet many breeders act like the money is not such a big part of it but you started the biggest collection of Snows on Earth? You are going to tell me getting a jump on producing so many Snows was not driven by hopes of making money as much as it was love of the morph? Some of this does not ring true, and honestly it doesn't have much to do with my gripe. The title of my initial thread was in reference to the classifieds. Way more so than the market price. It was the classifieds and numerous ads with blowout prices that helped doom many of us. You, me, new guys, and guys who have been doing this for years. I fully understand some people overproduced, and I feel for them. I know it is frustrating to go through a whole season and finally produce snakes and then have them sit in your house for lengthy periods of time. My point was this. If many people saw this coming, and these snakes usually hit the classifieds later in the year the other types of colubrids why was there no effort to try and get decent prices for them? The prices hit the calssifieds low, and get lower every week. Like I said, pet shops will now have Honduran Morphs at pet shop prices, and the money guys like us will get for them is a joke compared to previous years. Again. the number jumped from how many Snows thought to be in existance? From 50 to 1000? Is that it? You did not have to go naming names! I never did, and it was not neccesary. All I said was the classifieds were bombarded with cheap morphs and now the snakes value is in the toilet. It very well may have ended up there anyway, but it seemed to me like it was not given much of a chance, and the fact you say you can't wait to get them out the door pisses me off, since that means you would rather take a fraction of what it is worth as opposed to try and maintain some sort of market value, even if that value was priced much lower than anyone had anticipated. If you have hundreds of hatchlings, well I can understand that, but then why the illusion that these snakes[Snows}had a future and that they were rare or investment type animals?!?!?! I know it was not you who solely made these claims, and it doesn't fall into the lap of one person. Am I wrong to say the Snow was looked at as the rarest Honduran morph of them all??? I can tell you it is what many many people who were looking to get into some good projects thought, and that is we people like me got into them. Now I can't be pissed? Only you and the others who had more to lose? I can tell you this, I had people interested in paying pricing similar to last year for Ghosts, now I had had to lower my price to what I paid for Anery Het Hypos a while back. What's in store for next year? I for one will keep the group I have, I enjoy the snakes. But you could not get me to spend my money on any of the new morphs, and it has everything to do with this, and it is my bet a lot of people will agree with me and spend thier money on other projects. Tom Stevens

Tom,

Here is the deal. Not everyone wants Hondurans and those that did/do have them already so who are we to sell them to? The public and the public will not pay these prices.

When animals are priced over what the public will pay - say $200 it's only the breeders who buy them.

Every breeder who wanted a snow or a ghost has one or will produce them this spring or next. And those that don;t have them already have been waiting for the prices to come down.

I would like to end this discussion now. I think we have made good points, and we should hold any ill feelings for anyone voicing their opinions.

And just so you know the reason I want the babies gone, I bought several new projects this year. I did this with money I thought would be coming in from my Hondurans. I think this is what most of us do, breed - produce - sell - buy new stuff. This is what makes it fun for me, maybe not you. This is also what keeps the higher end stuff selling. I think the lower end animal sales have been hit hard by this economy, thus causing a lack in funds for new higher end projects by most breeders.

Good Luck Tom

John Lambert

OK, I agree...and said what I wanted to say. I can accept the fact things didn't pan out and like I said I am keeping my Hondurans because I really like them. It is unfortunate things went down as they did, but this is part of the hobby/biz. You hit the nail on the head, all the breeders who wanted them have them, now it is people who most likely do not breed, but only keep snakes as pets who will be buying these snakes at more afforadable pricing. Tom Stevens

I think maybe we should hold onto the snakes longer and try to keep the price up but how long do we sit on them and does that magically mean the price will go back up. Please tell me what you would do in my position. I just really think the economy has had its toll on buying animals. Gas is really high and all the natural disasters are using up peoples disposable pet dollars.I talked to my friend in Holland and he had came home from a show there and ghost hondurans were going for 225 euros (about $300). He said there was a female hypo that was 2/3 patternless for 90 euros. I don't think 1 or 2 people can have an effect on the market by themselves. I know a big cornsnake breeder that has had a slowdown lately with his sales and he doesn't have hondurans. In conclusion, do I?:
Euthanize them
Hold them till they grow up
Sell them cheaper or
Non of the above
You tell me!!

Don,
I do not know what to say or what to do. I think you and I see whats happening and have reacted accordingly. I know it's costing both of us $.

And like I said in Daytona "If it's such a low price - buy it"
no-one took us up on that offer though.

Talk with ya later
John

ps. with whats going on Outback is on you next year. I cannot afford it.

I am sorry I gave you a headache Don. I know you have your hands full. I , and everyone else, we will all be lowering our prices. It is the only thing we can do now. I still think to the people who responded on this post....what shall we attempt to price these snakes at now? Is it a free for all and get what you can or should there be some pricing we all attempt to stay close too? I'd like to know. Anyway , seriously, I hope you move some snakes and hope things work out for you. Tom Stevens

Very good post John!!!!!
I agree with about what everybody is saying. There are so many factors that can play in this whole thing, the snake hobby itself with what sells faster, etc. The economy can play a big part as well.

From what I have seen, the less common the morph, the more it may cost or the higher the price it can command. The more common the morph, the cheaper it will become.

Here are some examples:

Albino corns fetched for $300 a piece back years and years ago when they first were out. Now they are appr. $25-$30.

Apricot pueblans were selling at appr. $250-$275 a piece when they were new to the market. $40 - $50 now.

Candy Cane corns were anywhere from $75-$150. Now they are a lot cheaper.

Albino Nelsons ran for $2000 when they were first out. I waited until 1999 and got mine for $200.

My personal favorite kings that I used to breed, chocolate banded/abberant cal kings, commanded a price of $50 each when I first got into them. By the time I had raised mine up to breed, they were at about $20-$25 each.

So now, it should be of no surprise that the prices of some of these Honduran morphs has dropped big time. I myself, like Tom, was surprised at how quick it did happen though. The speed of the price drop was pretty quick.

Thing is...this is exacty what I thought would happen.

Supply and Demand.

Think about it. Is it possible that the high end Honduran market is run mostly by just the breeders themselves? The average Joe off of the street may not have the money to buy the high end snakes. I know that I wouldn't.

The dissapointment is of course the expectations that were not met. The money spent was not seen in a return.

My personal opinion on it all: Buy and breed snakes that you love. Don't go by what is popular or what is the new trend, because there is always that chance that you could wind up dissapointed. Go with what grabs you and what you are passionate about. If you do love what you breed and still are dissapointed with the financial return, which is completely understandable, then just sell the snakes for whatever you can, cause it is money in the bank either way. You still had the fun of watching the eggs hatch and the surprises of what you saw hatch that breeding season....didn't you? If not, then examine your reasons for breeding or keeping snakes, cause it is a hobby, and a fun and rewarding one at that. If any money is made from it, then that is, of course, a big added bonus which anyone would certainly welcome!

If you are not having fun at it, then what is the point?

Take care! Pits rule!
Of course I had to show off a pit!!!!
Billy

-----
Genesis 1:1

Interesting thread this.

I have just bought two pair of hondurans to start breeding (1.1 hypo het albino and a anery het albino/albino het anery pair). So I will be a few years away from producing anything, but figured I give my two cents anyway. I decided to but them because they are beautiful in there own right and will produce some stunning offspring. That I will get to sell some of the offspring to recoup (hopefully after reading this thread) my expenses and maybe help pay for feeders mice help justify the original expense to myself.

Who knows what the cause of the price drop is. Certainly the economy is not great so how many people really have the money to spend on a >1000 snake. Then there are other arguments, the market is flooded with some morphs beause of lack of buyer desire/ability to pay and over production of the morphs. An earlier post suggested a really good reseason, the high market value was driven by breeders, who now are no longer in the market for some morphs; the new stable price, what ever it may be, will be what hobbyists with no real intent on breeding are willing to pay.

Are there any remeides to this situation? Other than limiting the number of morphs produced I dont see how you can keep prices from falling over time; prices which were probably artificial high beacuse breeders were buying the available high-end morphs. So the price drops (which may not even be long term, one off season does not predict next seasons prices) and more hobbyists will be able to buy the high-end morphs, demand goes up.

I worry, however, that the price of honduran morphs will go the way of the cornsnake (looking really long term here). I dont mind so much if they drop to 300 or so, then more people will be able to buy them . But, when the price drops to under 100 for a snake they become cheap enough to be "throw-away" pets.

Anyway, I may be new here and not an established personality but those were my thoughts on the subject.

Cheers,
Vinny
-----
“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

1
-----
Genesis 1:1

Sorry to hear what happened to you. On the bright side, you can still use snows to make more albinos, so they've got to be worth something.

Lesson to learn: Colubrids, and specifically kings and milks and corns and rats, do not make you much money unless you're among the very first few with a morph. I know from experience lol! And even then only if you blast the net with a nice website saying how your quality is the best.

The guys who make money are good businessmen IMO. Anyone with a few plastic boxes and a heat pad can breed Hondurans.
-----
Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...