Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Not sure how far this post will go or what moderators will think of it, or who at all will even want to touch this subject.

I cannot tell you guys how frustrated I am about behind the scenes pricing. It's one thing to list an animal @ a set price. Only to get inquiries about my animals trying to aquire them at unballieveable prices. There is reason behind it and most are eager to tell me that "so and so" is offering them at this price. This post is not to name any names and there are several people doing it. Typically it is those that have produced way too many of one particular ball and/or balls.

I do not believe the market is crashing or ever will for that matter. It is just frustrating to post an ad at what I feel an animal is worth, only to find 5 other people offering a like animal for almost thousands less. The desire to get off of an animal for self ahievement far outweighs their desire to keep things right. I know, I know, they will eventually sell. However if you are not armed with the information, you sit idle wondering what in the heck is happening all the while people are producing more and more of them.

Keep in mind, it has nothing to do with client base or customer service like alot believe, but where the deal is or where it can be had. There are some stand up people that believe in loyalty and I appreciate that as much as the next guy. I would much rather know a guy is loyal to another than to hear "He can sell me the same animal for alot less, so can you do.....$$$" I have been guilty of this myself on one occaison, but both prices were in the same ball park for the animal I was looking for and not thousands less. I sometimes want to post this stuff on my ads and some of you may have seen my frustration at this in my het ivory ads. How can I list an animal worth 5K @ 5K and know that there are guys selling them for 2K???? You know the guy that got the cheaper deal, is calling everyone he knows to tell them what so and so is selling them for. Im not talking about price fixing either, but selling an animal for what it truly is worth and not burning another at the end of the rope.

I have spoken with several people about this and some even believe that the prices will bounce back. It's not so much bouncing back, but actually knowing who is selling a particular animal at extremely low prices and being able to adjust to what is happening and allowing my prices to reflect that. Someone even suggested I keep my prices set and sell them for whatever I want when I get inquiries. How in the world would that make a difference if many people know that a certain person is selling them for far less???????? Why would they even glance at an ad when they know they can be had cheaper????????

I don't own hundreds of animals. I don't breed and produce thousands of animals or will I ever for that matter. I don't import or own anything WC. I just have a modest collection and some awesome animals. Rest assured, the guys that do this the most, do not have a couple of animals I have and when we start hatching babies in 06', they will never aquire an animal from us. Fortunately we went high and should be producing some killer crosses and very few will have them this season if all goes well.

Lastly, you must truly see it for what it is. If a guy is producing hundreds of babies of one kind or another, ask yourself this, why is he doing it??? It surely isn't the love of an animal, but more in the direction of love of the paycheck!! Some ads even say "Making room..." If you need to make room, then you produced way to many.

If you are in this hobby to make a million, you're in it for the wrong reasons. If you are in this hobby to produce and aquire a killer collection and one that people just awe at, then we are walking on the same road

I know this post could be construed as controversal, but it is merely putting things in perspective and venting my "Air of Frustration...." There also isn't anyone I am angry at in this hobby or dislike, but several I am not happy with over this very issue. If we have spoken over the phone, I'm quite sure you get a feel for who I am. If we haven't spoken, give me a ring sometime because I have met some real cool breeders and people for that matter, doing it that way!!!

Jeff
-----

>>I cannot tell you guys how frustrated I am about behind the scenes pricing. It's one thing to list an animal @ a set price.

Who cares what they "can" get them for. If they can get them cheaper then go ahead. Sell your animals for what YOU think you can get. Everyone is trying to save money and get discount animals.

>>doing it. Typically it is those that have produced way too many of one particular ball and/or balls.

Does Pastel ring a bell???

>>ads. How can I list an animal worth 5K @ 5K and know that there are guys selling them for 2K???? You know the guy that got the cheaper deal, is calling everyone he knows to tell them what so and so is selling them for. Im not talking about price fixing

Well, IMHO, posts like this hurt you and me. I mean, you are telling (those that do not know) everyone reading that buyers can get animals at greatly reduced prices. Does this person call everyone he knows? I doubt out. How many of us have friends that can plunk down 2-5K on an animal at a moments notice? Some will but not as many as you think (IMHO).

>>
Why would they even glance at an ad when they know they can be had cheaper????????

You can always find cheaper. It depends on how long you want to wait and how hard you want to look. When I picked up my first morph, I paid 5K for an albino hatchling from the Barkers (VPI). They are selling sub 2K now. Nothing I can do.

>>
>>I don't own hundreds of animals. I don't breed and produce thousands of animals or will I ever for that matter. I don't import or own anything WC. I just have a modest collection and some awesome animals. Rest assured, the guys that do this the

Just like me. Doing it for fun and enjoyment.

>>
>>Lastly, you must truly see it for what it is. If a guy is producing hundreds of babies of one kind or another, ask yourself this, why is he doing it??? It surely isn't the love of an

Pastels??? Yeah, I could be rolling in much more cash but I'm focusing on double het projects. They take longer but IMHO, are much more interesting.

Please don't mistake my comments as attacking Pastels. I have several and will be producing several (DH) this season. No flames please.

Jeff, open a "cold one" and relax. Frustration is part of the game. It will get better if you let it. Remember, mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't mattter.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Just a quick rebuttal:
"Who cares what they "can" get them for."

That is exactly the problem. You have lets say Albino's for sale @ 2K and only produced 10. Another guy produced the same line and is selling them for 1K and produced 100. That would make you a tad angry??

"Well, IMHO, posts like this hurt you and me. I mean, you are telling (those that do not know) everyone reading that buyers can get animals at greatly reduced prices."

That is a pretty naive statement. How many people do you think are out there not trying to get a deal and does not know that deals can be had? We all are looking for it. I hardly think a post like this has any effect on you or I. It is exactly as I said. Its the guy that produced 100's of them.

"Jeff, open a "cold one" and relax. Frustration is part of the game. It will get better if you let it. Remember, mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't mattter."

The problem with your last staement Jay is that, had I of drank one less wild turkey and coke last night, I may have made it to church and just very well may have not had such a bad hangover and guranteed I probably wouldn't have posted this post It was all good when we were slamming them down at the club last night. I just need to figure out when the time frmae is that they start kicking in and I will be good. They all seem to catch up at the same time.

Jeff
-----

>>Just a quick rebuttal:
>>"Who cares what they "can" get them for."
>>
>>That is exactly the problem. You have lets say Albino's for sale @ 2K and only produced 10. Another guy produced the same line and is selling them for 1K and produced 100. That would make you a tad angry??

No Jeff, it's not MY problem. I don't want to sound harsh, because you sound like you have your head/heart in the right place. Here's how I look at it: What can I do about it? If nothing, then I must move on or be consumed by the anger, jealousy or whatever mental ailment gets me.

>>
>>"Well, IMHO, posts like this hurt you and me. I mean, you are telling (those that do not know) everyone reading that buyers can get animals at greatly reduced prices."
>>
>>That is a pretty naive statement. How many people do you think are out there not trying to get a deal and does not know that deals can be had? We all are looking for it. I hardly think a post like this has any effect on you or I. It is exactly as I said. Its the guy that produced 100's of them.

There are plenty trying to get a good deal: $2,500 snake for $2000. Not a 5K snake for 2K. Those deals are far and few between. At least they never come my way.

>>
>>"Jeff, open a "cold one" and relax. Frustration is part of the game. It will get better if you let it. Remember, mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't mattter."
>>
>>The problem with your last staement Jay is that, had I of drank one less wild turkey and coke last night, I may have made it to church and just very well may have not had such a bad hangover and guranteed I probably wouldn't have posted this post It was all good when we were slamming them down at the club last night. I just need to figure out when the time frmae is that they start kicking in and I will be good. They all seem to catch up at the same time.

I don't mind. I wished I had some WT right now. I just finished my last beer DOH!

Jeff, just keep up the good work and be the best breeder YOU can be. Your reputation will gain you sales and speak for itself.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Its all good Jay, and as I said in the other post, its more over production than anything else combined.

"What can I do about it? If nothing, then I must move on or be consumed by the anger, jealousy or whatever mental ailment gets me"

You are doing exactly what we are supposed to do, address it so that people are aware of the guy that is only after your dollar. As I said, NONE of those guys will even be considered for the animals we produce this season and I am not the only one saying this. Now we know why when a new cross or morphs comes out, that people keep it under the wraps for soo long. We hope to produce the first Lesser Hypo, and potentially some Lessers DH for hypo and Albino as well with just one of our animals. Maybe even some Lessers het for Pied. Now I have been telling a few people that it should be the badest morph ou there with orange and tan and I think the brown will be neutralized. It may be wishful thinking, but we have 4 chances with the help of a friend

Dang wild turkey is a killer!!!!!! Im glad we enjoy the same drink

Jeff
-----

>Shoot me an email.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

As I said,it isn't any "one person" and you guys even brought up one fellow in another post that is offering 50% off of next years clutch for purchases today. These are not pastels or Mojaves we are talking about, but higher end morphs. That makes you just want to choke someone!!!

No need to name anyone either, just do a little browsing through the classifieds and see who has what and make a couple of calls. You can find a handful of them.

When you are in a position to produce something one of a kind or something that very few will have, just protect your work, thats all. Becasuse there are definately those people out there that will make it your last year of selling something extremely unique if given the opportunity to aquire it.

Jeff
-----

.........
-----
.............
..............
................
..................

I agree with you.

There are certain ones lowballing everyone else.

That is what is causing others to have to drop their prices.

The ones causing this do not care about the animals, they just care about the $$$$$. One in particular will inbreed animals to the point of outrageous genetic defects that animals from other people will not show. You can get the cheaper animal with the defect that "doesn't cause any harm" or pay the extra for one from a reputable person who actually cares about the animal.

Personally, I would pay the extra. There are certain ones who even if they were selling morphs at 1/4 what everyone else is asking, I would still not buy from them.

You just happen to be one of the loyal ones

I wasn't sure if this was going to open a can of worms or not and certainly was not meant to. It all boils down to over production and the need for a nickel as opposed to a killer collection.

Its all good, as I said, just venting a tad and for those that grossly add to the over production of morphs, I'm talking about you.

Jeff
-----

I am out for one goal and one goal only, to produce a Snow myself.

Whatever I have in surplus that I don't need or have room for will be sold off due to my limited space. Period, no mystery behind it. I simply don't have the space for a huge collection but I will give the best care to every single animal that I am in charge of until they sell. If I can give a deal to make someone happy and place one of my surplus animals in a good home, than I will take the reasonable offer made for it. I am not in it to get rich nor do I wish to hold onto animals to balance the market. I don't care about a market that I am not banking my livelyhood on.

As a buyer, the animals you are selling are only worth what I am willing to pay for them. If I don't like your prices, I am going to shop around until I find one I do like that fits my long term goal.

The so called "Ball Python Market" is customer driven and your product is only worth what I am willing to pay for it.
-----
No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place.

Zen proverb

Snowballs

I do see what you are saying, however I am concerned with the market always.

Here is a prime example of 2 animals:

Pieds - 200 gram animal should go from between 45 and 5500 and then based on amount of white thereafter.

There are a couple of guys selling them with 50% white for 2 to 3K less to come off of an animal.

Het Ivories - Hatchlings should go for around 4 to 5 K. I mean they do make a white snake.

There are several people selling from a proven line @ less than 2K. I guy emailed me a said he paid 5K for 1.2. Now that is ridiculous.

I do not breed with the intention of having too many and needing to thin out my stock. I am selling 2 females right now that are just not going to be used and sold 3 others. All breeder females because if I bred them I may potentially run into no room with 12 plus more hatchling racks. I also will never own more than 100 snakes because handling all of what I have weekly, is enough. My snakes do not go into a bin and sit idle till breeding season as well.

Like I said, this wasn't meant to spark controversy. Just pointing out what others won't.

Jeff
-----

Like I said, this wasn't meant to spark controversy. Just pointing out what others won't.

Jeff

No drama here Jeff.

Just adding a little buyer/some day maybe a seller/primarily a hobby guys point of view in the thread.

It's all good.

-----
No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place.

Zen proverb

Snowballs

I've seen these price wars in my other business, usually from people who are new & think that "discounting" a fantastic product will develop a client base. They are hoping to turn a big profit as quickly as possible & with that focus; they produce more than they are prepared to hold onto. We’ve seen the ads: “got too many”, “need the space” etc.

They fully intend to eventually sell at the market price... but most don't survive much past their first year. Reason- they discounted themselves out of business. The clients they generated move on, looking for the "better deal" and the losses this "smart" businessperson takes, makes it unfeasible to continue without cutting corners. The savvy buyer will see this and go elsewhere.

I know it can be frustrating right now, but they contacted you because they liked what they saw... so be firm in your prices! The purchaser has gotten the idea that this is a flea market (thanks to a few people) & it's not. You may have to hold onto a few of your animals a bit longer, but a yearling is worth more than a hatchling, so it’s okay to wait it out. The pluses in you being picky about your stock will show even better in your animals too. I agree that people who over-produce & under-sell their animals are effecting the market right now... but stick to your guns- you'll be around after the other guys' nothing but a memory.

(With kindness)...
Are you doing this as a business or a hobby? The reason I ask is because a business wants to make a profit- this is a good thing. I'm a hobby breeder of Holland Lops, I don't expect to EVER make a profit from it. But with BPs, I wish to eventually make a profit, so to me it is a business.

It's okay to do this as a business, and if you are wishing to sell even a few animals it can be a business. A good business will be picky about their stock, take excellent care of them all the good things a responsible breeder should do. The difference between a hobbyist and a GOOD business owner is whether they wish to profit from it or not. When you call yourself a hobby it’s an admission that you do not intend to profit, IMHO don’t limit yourself that way. You sound like a good businessman to me J
Best Wishes & chin-up!
NorthernRegius

I appreciate the kind words and as I said the hangover is more than likely the root of the post

Hobby and business walk a fine line. I intend to make money, but only to aquire nicer animals. I do not intend on being a millionaire from it, and am an electrician by trade. I make good money doing it, but my love is still in reptiles. One day soon people will say "Man have you seen this guys collection". I took a sociology class once. It showed how people imediately put people into classes when they meet ie...what do you drive, where do you live. It also is the case here in this hobby. Alot of people use the term "bigger breeders" and set certain people on a step of their own. Whenever I see a "Bigger breeder" go out of his way and answer to someone that may have just gotten in this hobby, it makes me smile and I generally comment on it to them. I think that says more about the person than his collection does. Thats exactly why I will spend hours and hours over the phone just helping someone that has just gotten into this hobby. I couldn't myslef have put myself where I am today without tons of calls to breeders and bothering them with trivial questions. You know who you are

I know they will sell and certainly a yearling will always be worth more than a hatchling. It is pure frustration over what is coming to be with some, thats all.

Again, Thx.

Jeff
-----

Quote: "One day soon people will say "Man have you seen this guys collection".

You appear to be well on your way
I want that for myself too.
NorthernRegius

do produce a white snake, but IMO, it's the least attractive.

Mojave produce a blue eyed lucy, much better looking than an ivory, imo.

Mojaves sell for 4-5, and even though everyone heard the story about the pair at Daytona that sold for 4500, people still buy single mojaves for 4-5k, sometimes more.

So is a yellowbelly worth the same as a mojave? Well, at this point in time, probably not. Crosses that make things like ebonies might drive prices up, but the same crosses are in the making with mojaves, who knows what they will bring.

I would say a fair price on YB's is 3.5-4.5k, I believe you could sell them at the low end of the "market price" just as well as the lowballers selling them way below value. I doubt anybody has so many yellowbelly's they have to sell them for 2k, it's just a matter of money.

That being said, is the individual snake one breeder ofters over another any better? Maybe, maybe not. You aren't only selling a snake, you are selling yourself and your service.

People will always lowball it.... but like others said, if you build a clientele, and ofter them good service, you will get repeat customers.

Cole Maas

Not sure how many Het Ivories you produced this season, but I guarantee there are a few that produced almost hundreds. I certainly remember a conversation I had with a guy that chatted over the phone with an over producer and his words went something like this " I don't care what people think, I have 30 het ivories on the ground and hundreds more coming " . Now that was just one conversation and hardly words from a man that would hold strong on his listed price even though they were listed at 1500 less than all others. So if they are listed less than all others, and with comments like that, couldn't we surmise that he would in fact sell them for less????

"People will always lowball it.... but like others said, if you build a clientele, and ofter them good service, you will get repeat customers."

As I said in a previous post, clientelle and good service are a past time with so many new breeders out there. Its naive to think that your customers will just run back and pay almost double what others are selling, because they feel loyal. At no point did I say that over producers produce lousy animals or give bad support. There is nothing said about that and they could in fact have great service. Just over production and sales @ or below trade in value in terms of cars. That is the problem.

All I was doing is addressing some important issues with me in this forum about over production and prices and I know that 95% of you know I am right. I am sure even a few yelled "Hell ya!!"

Jeff
-----

Hello all.....

I think everyone has some good points and bad....

I do not agree with people having big collections and not really in it for the money though....also why would any of this be an issue if money is not the real deal?

I do not even breed balls...YET....but when I do, I expect to sell them. I will not be breeding them to say ...hey look how many pastels I produced....no, I will sell them, and try and get full market value.

People are all haveing ruff hard times now, with gas prices soooo high. Companies are downsizing etc....

I would expect to sell what I have...if I needed the money, at reduced prices.

If I produce 10 pastels and the best offers I get are $600-$700 why would I hold them? Did I not produce them for sale?
Also...what about the guy or girl that produced 200 pastels? Don't they get to sell thiers as well?
They need to sell most likely all 200, as I am sure no-one wants to feed 200 babies for who knows how long...that can get expensive fast, so they may need to sell thier pastels at $500 each just to compete with me. I think it is all fair and reduced prices will bring in more people as well. That same person who produced 200 pastels may now have the cash to produce something different now, and next year we may see a severe shortage of pastels. Supply and Demand....it's just that simple.

My thoughts are if you have animals and you need to sell them, I advise you to get what you can for them. If you can keep them, then maybe next year you will get higher prices...then again you may not.

Some are in it to make their living, some just like having pets.

Just my 2 cents on the matter. I'm really a Boa guy, but I plan on producing Balls within the next few years.

Good luck all!

Andy Federico

AJF Reptiles

......

Hell Yeah!

I'll just keep it sort.

If your realy in it just for the love of the snakes, then shouldn't you be happy just to make back the cost of keeping them?

Wouldn't you spend the money to get that high dollar morph anyway? You know just so you can have in your collection. Or is the only reason you want it, is so you can breed it, make back the cost of getting it in the first place?

Am I way off base here?

"is so you can breed it, make back the cost of getting it in the first place?"

Sorry, it should be;

is so you can breed it, to make back the cost of getting it in the first place?

Kind of.

"If your realy in it just for the love of the snakes, then shouldn't you be happy just to make back the cost of keeping them?"

Think about this for a moment. I have 32 breeder females from 2000 grams to 3800 grams. Some are as old as 15 and some as young as 3. I also have a lesser het hypo yearling. If I was in it for the money and did what I was complaining about, couldn't I easily make my money back on the animal? Lets assume I hit 75% on 32 females and only use a 6 egg clutch. I breed all year long so I could easily breed them. Thats 20 females x 3 Lessers poss het hypo. That equates to 60 Lessers and assume I didnt want to hang onto them and wholesaled them out @ 12K a piece like a few are doing with with other morphs. Do you really think I would have aquired the animal with those intentions?? There is no way I would have even gotten close to buying it. Because supply and demand is here and a few others are doing it, does that mean I should be part of a few that single handedly destroy the value of such a rare animal for a quick buck??

That was my point in most of this topic summed up. You weren't too far off, but this subject is kind of spiraling away from what its intent was. Its intent was to voice my frustrations about overproducing animals and forcing prices to hit rock bottom as a direct result of sales and ruing the hard work that so many have put into it.

Hopefully that helped.

Jeff
-----

Wow - I'd like to have a yearling male anything that will breed 32 females in a season. Just kidding - I'm happy with one that will breed a single female successfully. Seriously tho - every time there is a major price drop this topic comes back up - I beleive the last time was the mojaves somewhere around July when Stan dropped his price to $5K and everyone swore it was the end of the world. Bottom line is that everyone has a right to price their animals as they see fit - if you want to price your animals at $5K and someone else wants to price them at $2K then so be it - there is nothing that can be done about it. Why take it personally? If someone comes at you with a "I can get it cheaper from someone else" then tell them thats where they need to do their shopping. Many of the larger breeders charge considerably more for their snakes than the average breeder - yet they continue to have a solid client base. Do you think RDR is complaining when he sees people selling thier snakes at thousands less than him? There is no need to try to compete, price them for what you feel they are worth (I know you are working with nice animals and can command a decent price) and let the rest roll off.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

"Wow - I'd like to have a yearling male anything that will breed 32 females in a season"

If you bred all year and didn't cool, that would be an easy achievement, but thats a different subject

It seems everyone is picking up a little of what I didn't say. Most people in the hobby produced 5 or 6 clutches on average (just a guess). Some produced none and some produced entirely too many. That is the problem I have.

You brought up Stan. Do you think that he had anything to do with setting the now going rate of Mojaves? I do and that is just my point. I do also realize that we cant assume to get what we paid and money isn't my issue entirely. Its just the guys producing 200 of anything and what that does to the next guy.

Man there are a ton of posts and it looked like no one was going to replyat first....ya right

Jeff
-----

Ya can't sneak a post like this by this opinionated bunch.

Honestly I saw too many $4k mojaves sitting at tables in Anaheim to blame Stan for their current market value. I keep seeing the same ones for sale over and over again - yet I see other breeders that put them up and take them down in a matter of hours. Personal opinion - just natural progression - but thats not to say Stan didn't move things along a bit.

But I agree too many mass producers spoil the broth - so to speak. But that is human nature: the only thing better than a good thing is more of a good thing - your hangover should have taught you that. Americans don't do moderation very well. Goes for snakes, drinking, sex, money, food, etc. etc. etc.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

"Do you think RDR is complaining when he sees people selling thier snakes at thousands less than him?"

LMAO Umm...yes. And recently, too.

Chris =)
-----
mean people suck

Actually - his little rant was not really over people selling lower than him - but rather people constantly dropping thier price week after week just to sell the snake. I beleive the word he used was "whore". Example his Yellowbellies (aka Goblin Markers) sell at $7500 going market rate $4K-$5K he's not much complaining. Pete Kahl same thing pay much more for a Pied from him than someone with a lesser name, but he's not much complaining either.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Just how long have you been involved in the reptile market? I find it hard to believe that if you have been doing this for 5 or more years, you don't understand how it works.

It's supply and demand, very simple. It is time for some of these ridiculously high prices to come down and stabalize, for those that are on the next level of the pyramid.

Some examples:
-Albino Burmese Pythons - first years (late 1980's I think) they were available they were $3-4000.
By 1995 most big producers of them had to wholesale them for $75 a piece just to move them. Retail price around $200.

-Albino Nelson's Milksnake - In 1997 they were $4000 a pair.
In 1999 they were $200 each.

-Variable Kingsnakes (orange thayeri) have gone from $300 each to $30 each three times in the last 20 years.

It's a cycle. Right now, ball pythons are still hot but they are on the downswing. They will always be a popular pet snake, just like the leopard gecko is a popular pet lizard.

These high prices can not last very much longer, those that believe they will are living in a dream world. This is a multi level market. Only a few have the kind of money to invest at the prices a lot of the morphs are at now. Once all those that have invested at the top levels are dome investing, the prices must come down (dramatically in the case of ball pythons) in order for the next level (regular consumer) to be able to buy these animals. Period.

I am sure some will get their undies in a knot over my post, but it is what it is: reality. That doesn't make it not exciting or fun anymore for some, which is good! Money can still be made from breeding ball pythons of course, but most people are not going to get rich, those days are over.
-----
Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I do understand your position and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

If you had read my post thoroughly you would see that it is not about supply and demand nor what next years prices will dictate or what prices should be at the moment. It is about the ability of one (in this case several) breeder to produce as much if not more than 10 breeders collectively. There is no mystery and I am not lost in the idea that I can't get rich now. It is simple and in a post to Jay, I said if you come into a great opportuntiy to produce or aquire anything extremely unique, protect it, thats all and that sums up everything I ranted about. Not that I bought a lesser for 25K 3 years ago and can't sell them for 25K now. That part of the equation is inevitable and very forseen.

Re read the origional post and the comments that follow and you will undoubtably see what I was talking about.

Jeff
-----

Hello,

Kelli good for you saying what you did. The only reason we see post like this is because of to many people getting involved in a business who haven't a clue about running a business.
Face the facts, wether your running a business that deals in reptiles or running a business that deals in computer chips, it's all the same. Not one bit of difference. Supply and demand. That's the only thing that matters and anyone who thinks different should not be running any knid of business. I personally think all the people complaining about the prices they should get on their animals versus what they can actually get right now is a sign of no business tact. One of the main characteristics of a successful business person is the ablity to to see where the market is going, not just providing a quality product and great service.
In the end I would like to say to all those complaining about how your not getting the money you think you should on the animals you produced. Get out of reptiles, we all know your only in it for the money. Oh well take care and stay safe. Ciao. Andrew Potts

Websters definition of Capitalism:

an economic and social system in which individuals can maximize profits because they own the means of production.

"In the end I would like to say to all those complaining about how your not getting the money you think you should on the animals you produced. Get out of reptiles, we all know your only in it for the money."

Who is complaining of money were not getting?????

Lets talk about business and integrity for a moment Andrew. You made a valid point and from a capitalists standpoint and business ethics, its easy to see you are about the money and you only!!! As your statements clearly point that out from a business standpoint.

Lets use supply and demand for a moment. Lets assume that the 3 major tire companies in the world have a customer base of 1.5 million people in the US each. They forcast every season in their customer base. We have a total of 18 million tires for projected sale in the US anually by all 3 tire companies.

Lets say one day Firestone decides its going to mass produce and flood the market and sell as many as they can in 2006. Lets say they produce 50 million tires in a year and 45.5 million more than supply demands. What then happens to the other 2 major tire manufacturers??? They are forced to drop prices on everything and sell fast and the tires would be sold at less than cost by all 3 corporations. So from a business standpoint or an unethical standpoint, you are right if it is about the buck. You are contradicting yourself saying everyone else is about money, when standing by the supply and demand quotation and overproducing. What about all of your overhead on product you don't sell immediately ie..maintinence, storage, food, support, and time invested????? That is exactly why neither of the 3 do it.

Keep this in mind too, how long will the stock in a company you run, keep lower prices?? I know, not very long. Also there is potential for an unfair business practice suit against a company doing just that. So in the short term, it is good busniess sense, but in the long term, youre out of business or your stockholders have replaced you. Get in and get out, sounds like a quick buck to me!!!

Also sounds like a guy I would never sell a high end morph to. I also realize that you will sell an animal for WHATEVER you can get for it as opposed to what your animal is worth. So to recap what you have said is, me, me, me, me, me, me and who cares about you, you, you, you, you! The more you over supply, the more you force those with the same product to drop their prices as a direct reflection of your actions.

I do appreciate you bringing supply and demand to my attention, I understand it now!!!!!! Or at least your interpretation of how it should be.......... $$$$$$$$!

Do you even breed ball pythons? Lets hope not.

Jeff
-----

The "big breeders" have always been about mass production (in most cases). That is one of the reasons they are "big breeders".

Let's see, Bob Clark, Gourmet Rodent, Mark Bell, Ron Tremper, Pete Kahl, NERD, and even RDR. It's not a bad thing, it's just the way it is.

Those that are attempting to mass produce their snakes are only following the leaders. Not that it is right.

The way to go is exactly what you are doing: trying to create a brand new morph. I commend you for that.

I personally would tell someone to get lost if they called me [bleep]ing about my pricing on an animal. See, this is a free market system we are living in, and price fixing is a big no no.

Best of luck with all your projects Jeff.
-----
Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Thank you very much for your support Kelli. People will not always agree on every issue and I figured it could potentially raise the roof so to speak with an issue such as mine. No biggie though.

We are excited and hope to produce some great things. We'll let you know

Jeff
-----

And remember, this is all just a discussion on a forum, that is all. It's really not all that important, what is important is that we, as herpetoculturists do our best to improve our lines, ie. outcrossing, culling, being honest with our customers and future customers. Basically don't breed "wobble head" spiders (sounds scary!) or kinked tail leopard geckos. And, most important of all... don't take ourselves too seriously (we're just reptile breeders!) and HAVE FUN! Peace my friend.
-----
Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Hello,
Let me start out by saying that anyone who say's I'm doing it just for the money is way off base. How many people here have spent the last 13 years running a specialty pet store that only deals in reptiles...? In that 13 years me and my partner have had the privilage to sell 10's of thousands of reptiles to our customers. Our stock is the usual you find in most pet stores. Assorted turtles, tortoises, lizards, snakes, frogs and anything else that might be considerd creepy. Do you know what the average price we sell something for....? About $50 or less, no big ticket items in my store. Inexpensive and even more inexpensive is what my customers tell me all the time. Have me and partner made money....? Yes, but were definetily not getting rich and to be honest not enough to to plan a retierment on. Have we still had to provide the kind of customer support that people expect when they give you their hard earned money...? Yes and we have earned a reputation for being very pro customer. We even guarantee our animals for 30 days or longer. All that for about $50 dollars a sale and doing it for 13 years. Yep while I sit hear and type in my half million dollar home I don't have, I sure would like to see how anyone can say I'm doing it for the money. Oh I forgot to mention, I do this full time and have been for the last 13 years and loving every minute. How many of the moaners and groaners on here do it full time(only source of income) and how many would do it for $50 a sale...? I already know what the moaners and groaners would do!!! Take care and stay safe. Ciao. Andrew Potts

Except for you and a couple other clear-headed individuals people do not get it.

It can be a snake, a diamond, a pound of rice...it DOESN'T matter. The market and supply and demand works the same.

Maybe if we start refering to them as "Widgets with Scales" it will make it easier on them?

Alan

that sounds like the ball world to me......

.........and it IS all about the mo-ney...........
-----
.............
..............
................
..................

I read where you said they lower the price because they care about the almighty dollar more than the love of the snakes. YET.. your upset because you can't sell yours for more money!!! Am I missing something? Ron
-----
The Crawl Space

I can completely understand your frustration. I've gotten great deals on animals, but when I do it's because I do a lot of buisness with that breeder and they show their appreciation. But, when I get those deals I keep the price/seller a secret, and don't try and use it to get a good deal from somebody else. It's one thing to offer a good friend or a good customer "the deal of the century", and a completely diff thing to offer it to the general public.

Chris
-----
1.1.0 Irian x Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.2.0 Black Rats- Robert, Cady, Kylie
1.2.0 Albino FL Kings-Nick, Jessica, Ashley
1.1.0 Crimson Corns-Kane, Ruby
0.1.0 Het-Crimson Corns-Lola
0.1.0 White-Sided/Pos Het Albino Black Rat-Lita
1.0.0 Albino White-sided Black Rat-Rey
0.1.0 Albino/Het White-sided Black Rat-Stacey
1.2.0 Creamsicle Corns-Vince, Trish, Torrie
0.1.0 Fl King-Bonnie
1.0.1 Green Tree Pythons Biak-Brandon, Aru-Orochimaru
1.0.0 Flame X Blood Bearded-Ruff
2.4.0 Ball Pythons-Kritsy, Gretchen, Alexis, 100% het for albino balls- Naruto, Hinata, 66% het VPI Axanthic-Sasuke
0.1.0 Red-tail Boa-Xena
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor-Izzy

Thx.
-----

your right

the bottom line is money, nothing more.

I will only ever keep a few snakes so I can house them and maybe sell a couple here and there, for me I love these animals and that has to come first.

this is big big business, and has been from the start, there is onle one reason someone would import a wild looking morph from the wild and that is mainly money, sure they look nice but its the money potential at the root of it.
deal
Everyone has the right to do as he pleases, he can sell loads of snakes if he want, he can hold them if he wants, this is how some business' works. there's always someone at the top, middle and bottom, and the top guys don't owe anyone any favoures, period.

We are all responsible for turning this into a money making deal, and the right to sell them at any price is everyones right as well, there are no rules so why would't someone try and make more money if he wants to, strategies are there for everyone to try.

It's a shame in the end, because it's the animals that are the ones being bartered for, they are the ones being shipped here and there for money, and its not the reason most of us got into reptiles to start with is it. do you remember that time when you just felt soo good about having your first reptile, those feelings started us off, I wish it was like that still and that we don't have to talk about money all the time.

this is not pointed at anyone in particular, feel free to write replies.

thanks

steve

ps. writing on this laptop isnt soo easy, so forgive any spelling errors.

My goodness, yes I am English....but it looks like it's my second language when I re-read my post lol.

laptops, the morphs of the computer world.

steve

it couldn't have been put any better. MONEY MONEY MONEY. Will I get satisfaction and joy out of hatching my first little pied, absolutely. That snake will be in my collection until it dies at a ripe old age, babied all it's life. I got into this ball python morph craze with that in mind. It will be very nice to have my collection pay for itself when I am able to sell some of my animals to other people that only dream of having a pied, albino, ghost, and hopefully some of the designers that I plan on producing. Ultimately we should plan on selling our babies at prices that are at most $1-2k and that is for the double/trip simple recessives just because those are sooo hard to make even with a huge collection. Remember eveyone it doesn't cost much to house and keep these small pythons in our racks, and food is very cheap for them. Selling a clutch of 6 babies at $500 each is still a very nice profit considering the amount of work involved. let's see 1 male albino, 5 female albino's, let's say they all breed and produce an average 5 eggs. it cost less than $600 to feed all of them for a year, so you get 3/4 the eggs to hatch, that's still about 18 albino's, hmmm after the first year of breeding (to recoup the investment) that's on average 9k profit each year at $500 each. I'll take that any day. Now does anyone see them dropping that low in the near future, even if someone unloads 200 babies a year, i know i don't. Everyone needs to get a grip and enjoy the animals for their true beauty. When was the last time someone took out their Pied, mojave, lesser and handled it for more than the time it took to clean out the tub and take pics? ok this is my 3rd time adding my 2 cents so that's my 6 cents now, Josh Hutto
-----
2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, gulf coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(gulf coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (gulf coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I read all the posts and yet I am still amazed at the statements!

Why would I be OK with $500 for an animal I can get $20,000.00 for?
Yet...if someone is selling them for $20,000. and I want to sell for $15,000. to make a deal....why not?

How can I breed and produce 200 of any animal and not be specializing in them?

I experienced a similar situation years ago in the Fox Pelt industry.....

Red fox were selling for $10 each, I only had 22 pelts....so I made $220 bucks that season.....some other producers decided they would freeze their 1000 plus pelts because they were used to getting $25 plus the years prior.
The following year, the market was worse...it was not over-production, but drop in economy!!!
Those guys now got burned bad and sold for $6.00 per pelt!!!

Today you can get $25 for a Red fox pelt.

It really is alot of factors...market trends...Economy....Supply and Demand.....

If you are producing for your own hobby, and you get to sell them for $10 or $10,000....only you can decide what you will do next year! Blaming others for what they do is futile...

I know if any of us produced 100 anything and got to sell for $10,000 each we would be happy as could be!

I doubt you would be concerned about me producing my clutch of 6 eggs and maybe one hatches....and will I get the $10,000 as well?

I may be happy getting just $7,000. and the following year others may get $3,000 each.

That big breeder may get out of that morph alltogether, and shoot for the next $10,000 dollar morph!

A couple years later, I may see price increases, and my hobby flurishes!

Good luck everyone.....I am not in the Ball business yet.....

Andy Federico

Man, there sure are a lot fewer posts in this thread then there were last night.

Giving always cheers people up.
I think sending me a baby albino BP would make you feel so much better about the biz (I know I would be extatic LOL).
Tis the season (well almost).

LOL.

Keep going the way you are and you will build a loyal group of buyers.

Overproducing one type of animal is plain greedy in my opinion... I haven't bred ball pythons buy I have a high dollar boa project going on.. I've got a breeder male Colombian Motley boa that's hopefully going to produce for me this year.. I could be a jag and try to breed him to my largest normal female who produced a litter of 60 offspring in the past, produce 30 normal Motleys and flood the market with them, sell for like 2-3k each and still make 60-90k minus my investment.. Will I do that?? HELL NO!!! He's in with a smaller, 6' normal female right now, I'm hoping to produce 10 or so normal motleys with that.. For a 2nd female I've got a poss dominant ghost lined up to hopefully produce het ghost motleys.. (Which might I add I "Think" will be a FIRST!!) There are a few other "New" projects that I am working on also, and there is no way in hell I'd MASS PRODUCE them.. If you wanna produce 200 snakes in a year, PLEASE MAKE IT A VARIETY!!!!!!!
-----
Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

In april, I bought my first ball python and am now hooked(previously, I had a collection of local snakes I caught myself). I'm looking to breed a blonde to a few females this year...nothing big compared to some, but I'm loving what I'm doing and it's been such a learning experience! All that being said, I'm blown away at how much I've spent on snakes! I love these ball pythons SOOOO much (my girlfriend can attest to that), but seriously, has anyone thought about what we're saying? Whether it's 5 grand or 50 grand...we're spending that on SNAKES! Think back to right before you got into breeding snakes. Did any of you ever imagine you'd spend or sell that much on a reptile? Again, I love this so much, but it's honestly insane!
Jeremy Conrad