Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What can we really do about this? I have been out of town for the past few days and just getting caught up with the strings of posting here on the forum. I see the valid points of Tom's, Terry's and Shannon's. I, myself, have a collection of high-end hondos and will really start exploding starting next year but am also concerned about what the market will be come next season. But it really bids the question of what can we really do to stop the landslide of prices? In reality, there's really not much we can do except hope that prices stabilize. There is no governing body out there (like the Federal Reserve controling the interest rates or the government stepping in to curb the oil prices). The fact of the matter is people will do what people would want to do. If one has suddenly produce a bunch of snows or ghosts but have no space or cages available to wait for another year or so, then panic sets in and they try to sell/dump fast. It's the law of economics and manufacturing companies do that all the time... no different from us people. I've always been a believer in markets correcting itself. You learn that from graduate business schools all the way to just your common day-to-day experiences.

The economy also play a big role in whether people have the money for this hobby or not. Let's face it. Raising snakes is not a "need" but a "want". So when hard times come (like escalating oil prices, bad job market situation, and lowest consumer confidence index in two years... well, our snake hpbby will surely suffer temporarily. I apologize for throwing in some jargon words (occupational hazards I suppose) but these are the things that are wreaking havoc on prices of high end hondos.

I think it really boils down to how much you care about these snakes. I personally have done my marketing this year MOSTLY behind close doors and have sold all of my hatchlings a few days after they are hatched. I think the key for sellers and breeders to find out the optimum level of production that they should be doing. We all try to make some "reservation" list and from that list, you pretty much know who will be committed (even though there's no deposit) and who seem wishy-washy. From that feeling, one should have a pretty good idea of how many hatchlings or pairings to do. The hondos do not jump into the other cages to breed. You have that control over it and the demand from your reservation list should be your guide to avoid excesses and surpluses that you won't be able to handle later. If the breeders think of demand first before rushing in to mate the hondos, then the market will not be sooo over saturated right away.

The last comment I'd like to say is that I do this hobby primarily for fun first then for making money (in that order). Hondos are such wonderful snakes and it's hard not to really care about these guys. And if we all care about the well being of these guys, our common thrust should be to explore the other hidden genes, breed them intelligently, and not go for PURELY commmercial reasons alone.

These are just my 2 cents. I hope I did not offend anyone in any shape or form and if I did, I apologize in advance.

Thanks for reading and hope to see some comments/reactions.

Have a good day and advance happy halloween !

Best regards,
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RAY

I really hope you are right about the market correcting itself. I would love to see things improve just a little, as I can accept the fact this dive happened, but it seemed very drastic and panic is the word I am associating with this situation the most. You are also correct that the fact is we simply don't have an organization of sorts that helps let breeders know what they feel is an appropriate price for snakes. In a way i have to wonder if things would be as they are now if the majority of people selling Hondos all offered them within a specific price range instead of the things we are experiencing now with " well this guy has them even cheaper now" things I hear about when I try and sell a snake. I think we all will agree the economy, mainly the price of gas and hurricane type things will affect basically everything so giving someone a break on the price of something is kinda normal for right now. I love my snakes, and thier offspring and though I have mentioned it,,,I will say it again...I do have way more time than average breeder who still works a job to devote to my animals. I am also not in a rush to sell them, I simply do not produce that many. This is why I realize I came off harsh in my original post,,,and I feel a little guilty about that but it seemed like those ahead of the game, established producers of these snakes were dumping them extremly cheap. Which hurt the market which hurts the little guys bigtime....the ones who paid hefty sums for snakes that dropped dramatically before we even produced any. All in all I am glad I made the post, as many people were thinking similar thoughts, but apparently did not want to bring it to the forum. Maybe now that it was discussed some balance will come to the pricing, maybe not, but we'll see who sticks with Hondurans and who bails. I have a nice group and I enjoy keeping them and hatched my first clutch this year. They are great snakes, and I can see myself working with them for a long time. Tom Stevens

I agree about people being strapped for cash due to the hurricane and the rising prices of fuels. It isn't going to get any better due to the New Orleans area being responsible for 25% of the US's natural gas and winter is vastly approaching (lock in those rates) and Christmas. However---if you have money to spend, you will spend it. I also deal with asian ratsnakes, where morphs are scarce. Normal production occurred and after only a day and a 1/2 of posting wild type offspring, I sold out at full price on all my hatchlings. People felt confident without the fear of a market crash. They were marketed correctly by the asian ratsnake enthusiasts. I understand breeders need to make their money, but I know people out there are just waiting for the prices to keep dropping. They see the trend, which Terry touched upon, about the animal not selling and the breeder getting worried--then dropping after 1-2 reposts.

This basically can be attributed to 1 situation that went south (not naming but most know)from bad marketing and a chain reaction was caused for everybody else to drop prices to compete. All the other morphs for hondos are suffering a bit, but not to the extent of ghosts and especially snows. The only way they will recover is if there is less production next year (ie. supply and demand that everyone commented on). I know it won't happen but breeders should concentrate their efforts elswhere producing less ghosts and snows and more triple hets, hybino project animals, or refinement morphs (better hypos, anerys, etc). Producing more hets will also give the market a bit more time to restabilize being that the animals will take longer to get to breeding age. I hope this whole scenario doesn't happen to extreme hypos--producing 30 and expecting them to sell in a week---but I bet it will.

People, however, need to make money--especially breeders that do this full time. Recouping costs put in, time put in, and breeding stock. Hence "Catch 22"

The system will only work if everyone in already and new members coming in (the hondo family) abide by the unwritten economic rules. What would everyone say if I produced 30 extremes next year and sold them for $150 each. I still make $4500 but everyone suffers (also in subsequent years--including myself).

The only logical solution is to eliminate availability--supply and demand.

Another thought would be to possibly assemble a panel of honduran experts/top breeders/etc. of 10 or so and have them all agree on a baseline market price. People chosen should be voted upon by knowledge, experience, quality, economic knowledge, etc. This should be what is made available to the public with little deviation on the classifieds--although, yes, I realize everyone has the right to sell what they want for as much as they want. This may help those unfamiliar with economics acquire selling tips.

Just my thoughts and experiences from other species markets.
mgl

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I also sold out of higher dollar animals quickly. I sold every tangerine albino I produced for a minimum 800 and up in 1 hour. The price issue every one keeps going back to on snows and ghosts is not anything new to those of us that have been in the honduran market for some time. As Shannon stated he only had 1 order this year and Terry Dunham told me his orders were half of what there were last year. I had 3 orders which backed out and my buddy Jeff had none. I did not want to see the price drop believe me it sucks. Could I hold back all the snows I produced and demand 1200 and eventually sell them all? I do not think so. It was time for a price adjustment on these and some other hondurans. THINK ABOUT HOW MANY SNOWS WILL BE PRODUCED NEXT YEAR. I dropped my prices after I talked with several people breeding large colonies of Hondurans that were all going to make major price adjustments. It seems every discusion on the forum regarding prices dropping hints towards my ads, why, I guess because I only attended 1 show for sales this year and I had to us KS to advertise. I also am not a Terry Dunham so most do not know of me and I have to use KS, most big breeder attend several shows and many contacts from their years in the hobby. I diD not wake up one day and say hey let me offer snows for 650 and piss every off or try to hurt their investment. I just followed suit. Does everyone here really know what the sticker prices on snows have been at the shows? I do, 1350 a pair from 1 breeder just as an example.
Do I see the price for these beautiful animals going any lower, no I do not. Will I sell them any cheaper. No I will not. I do like however as most of you should if you would just think about it the fact that the prices will incourage and bring in more middle-end to newcomer buyers which will mean more sales resulting in a better bottom line. Bottom line is we need some new hobbiest to get into Hondurans and most have been waiting for the prices to come down some. There will be more Hondurans produced next year then ever, better prices should help all of us sell all our animals.

What I do not get: If I could have bought snows and ghost for at the prices being offered today last year I would have bought every single one I could have got my hands on.

I do not feel snows and ghosts are not selling out fear the price will go lower, if that were the case why would anyone pay a grand for tangerine albino?

Folks just seem to what color and patterns or something altogether different.

I have said this yearlier it's time to put this price thing behind us and move on. It would be nice to start a new post with some good news and lighten things up a bit around here.

PS: I, like most of you will be producing snows next year, maybe we could discuss our 06 price plan now or work with each other to help fill orders. If some of you do not have snows or nice tangerine albino etc. I would work something out with you and help you fill your oders. I move stuff out and you can make some money. Ideas.....

You know you just answered a question I had hoped to hear about. That is the bottom line for pricing on Snows, in other words the 05 value you hope to stick too and that hopefully others will not go lower on. Tom Stevens

First I wasn't talking about your ads. Second, congrats on the your sales--tremendous animals. I only had 1 pre order on snows this year and he never replied back but I've sold out/traded my last 7 snows without even posting them. I don't think you can really compare show prices to net prices because the customers at the shows are really only looking to spend 500 at most (like somebody stated before). A few other shows, yes you will spend money.

I think bringing in more people will help in the long run but ones I have talked to are scared to even get into the market because of the trend. The less you have to spend, the more wisely you will. They need to see the leveling out before they will invest.

Back to the tangerine albinos. I think the emergence of the vanishing tangerine albino helped the cause of the tangerine albino price. It was something new and linked to your albinos. Plus, you have true tangerine albinos--somewhat rarer too.

The reason there are still snows available is because people are too afraid to buy them. Like you said about last year, I would buy them now but I'm not certain they will remain this high next year. I will probably turn my focus to my extreme, triple homozygous, and hybino projects--I haven't decided if I'm going to even breed any snows that aren't het hypo or poss het hypo.

We should move on, I was just commenting on the situation and a possible solution and I think most have been amiable to suggestions/points. That shows that we all care about our hobby/business---which is the best solution yet.

mgl

" Another thought would be to possibly assemble a panel of honduran experts/top breeders/etc. of 10 or so and have them all agree on a baseline market price. People chosen should be voted upon by knowledge, experience, quality, economic knowledge, etc. This should be what is made available to the public with little deviation on the classifieds--although, yes, I realize everyone has the right to sell what they want for as much as they want. This may help those unfamiliar with economics acquire selling tips. "

I don't think having a panel assembled to control or dictate what the base prices are for each type of hondo is a good solution at all. For starters, we do not live in a communist country that a handful of people should be dictating how much a snake should be. As a democratic nation, we chose the "laissez-faire" or free markets to run the economy and it has been proven time and time again that the market will correct itself. Just look at Wall Street, or the commodities futures, and such. The law of supply and demand will play a big role on this. If one breeder has an uneventful/unprofitable year because of producing so many hondos of just one type, or not producing enough of another type, or not being able to analyze the demand first before producing, then that breeder will undoubtedly make some necessary adjustments on his or her breeding projects for next year. It's a tug-o-war between supply and demand or in this case, between breeders and buyers. What we have seen here this season is not catastrophic. As Jim Lambert pointed out, he sold albino tangerines at high prices even though it the snows did not do well. Look at it this way, each type of hondo is a product in itself. And we all know in our economics and business classes that a product always has a product life cycle. Last year, the snows are the hottest. This year, it's the year of the hypo extremes. But it does not mean that the snows are gonna be a thing of the past. My point here really is that whether we like it or not, the law of supply and demand will prevail. How the supply will shape up next year will depend on how breeders of this year will learn from what happened this year. How the demand will shape up will depend on how popular hondos will be next year. The public love for snakes is not going down or disappear overnight. On the contrary, it will continue to increase in interest as more and more people get educated by other people such as us.

So guys, really, let's not try to blame as to who did who that hurts pricing and profitability. Most of us, if not all of us, have full time jobs and raising hondos is a fun hobby ( and I would assume that if you make money, it is icing on the cake and not a necessity to pay your rent or cover your house mortgage ). Let the market correct itself and let's just all go our merry ways. Life is short and just enjoy the privilege of having the capacity and capability to care for these wonderful animals.
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RAY

I just realized John that I typed Jim instead of your first name. My apologies man!

Best regards,
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RAY

First of all, nobody is dictating anything. How are retail prices determined. New cars aren't selling for 2K off the market. Labor, parts, time, contracts, etc. are all taken into account w/ slight overhead. Similar to if somebody put on the classifieds an ad for a 3000 normal honduran female--you know that is overpriced due to an established baseline.

I don't think a panel would ever be assembled. Just like I'm not sure if the market will correct itself without intervention, only time will tell. What you neglected to mention about Wall Street and stock markets is that intervention does happen (ie. Greenspan yawns).

I'm happy for Jon Lambert and the tangerine albino prices as they are magnificent creatures. I think he has tremendous animals and the addition of the vanishing tangerine albino helped that cause. I also think he is one of the few that actually has true tangerine albinos (which is another whole can of worms).

I realize it is a fun hobby, but if you buy high end animals and lose money continually, you won't have fun. Also, if this is just a hobby, then why not sell all animals at the same price.

Not trying to demoralize anybody and life is short so we should make the best of it. I hope the market will correct itself

mgl

" don't think a panel would ever be assembled. Just like I'm not sure if the market will correct itself without intervention, only time will tell. What you neglected to mention about Wall Street and stock markets is that intervention does happen (ie. Greenspan yawns)."

Believe me, Greenspan is one step behind usually. Just ask all the traders on Wall Street and most of them (including myself as I myself is a trader on Wall Street), that even before Greenspan raises rates or lowers rates, the markets ALREADY reacted. This is what we call "priced in".... so, most of the time, if not all the time, the market corrects itself. The markets constantly anticipates the Fed moves.... and I believe that when it comes to law of supply and demand on the hondos, the market will correct itself.

Hope that helps some concerns of others.

Thanks,
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RAY

anticipation is a lot to base a hobby off of (although not as relevant as it is in stocks).

good luck
mgl

Tom, I understand your dilema, I face the same thing with albino eastern kings, paid thousands and now they are $100 a pop. The problem with fixing a price is in some states it is illegal. Because you would not be letting the market dictate the price, the end result of artificial price fixing would be numerous unsold and virtualy worthless snakes sitting in breeders "for sale" cages. The real issue is over-production relative to demand. The Honduran market is reaching saturation. What is the true demand for a $650, $800, $1200 snake that because of over-production will be selling for $200 in a couple of years? If the demand is not there for a morph how on earth could you justify an inflated price? Market forces are not all slanted to the seller, the buyer has an equal say and in this case the buyers are not willing to pay what you want for your product. I hope I'm not being too forceful here because I don't have anything against anyone in particular I just think its a hard lesson to learn, and it sucks.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

I know what you are saying. I just figured if for example a snake was 2000 dollars one year, and no buyers seemed willing to pay 1500 the next, that the price may drop in a noticeable pattern of maybe 50-100 bucks every few weeks, or something like that. This is what I have seen over the years on the classifieds, until the following spring when ads literally say moving these out to make room for new hatchlings. Timing is everything, and mine was just awful. One thing I should have mentioned though, it is not that I would have stayed away from Hondos due to this price drop. The fact is I could have got into the same project in 05 for a fraction of what I paid for mine last year. Seeing I was happy with my rate of success being a breeder this was a real kick where it hurts. Tom Stevens

I gotcha It doesn't look like I'll be behind the money for a few more years. Since for me its just a hobby I'm not too concerned with my own bottom line but earning enough to cover feed would be nice.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic