Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The time is getting close now, so I'll be soliciing for ideas to prevent me from making any mistakes.
In the next month or so, construction will start of a garage onto my house. The entire building will be 16'x32', of which the back 13' will be my dedicated snake room. It'll be standard 2x4 framing on a slab. I'll be enclosing it and running electrical all myself after the contractors get the shell up.
So my first question is about the walls. I live in S.E. Virginia to give you an idea of my seasonal temp fluctuations/concerns. What is a relatively cheap way to wall the room in once insulation has been installed? When it comes to 4x8 sheets of most supplies, drywall is the way to go at only about $5 a sheet. Any wood product will easily be twice as much or more, and will require sealing anyway because of the moisture that will be in the room. How about the shiny silver reflective material, or the blue sheets of styrofoam? Has anyone ever used this material?
What would YOU use if you were starting from scratch?

My next immediate concern is the concrete floor. Concrete absorbs heat fairly readily, so Im concerned about heating/cooling issues and the electrical bill it'll generate. Would you consider building off the floor and going with a wooden floor and air space underneath to act as a buffer? But I dont want a wood floor because now I have to deal with water spillage issues. "So put a vinyl flooring product down over that" you say? Nope, now the cost is getting outrageous, plus if you've ever done vinyl flooring yourself you know it's a pain in the butt. So Im thinking just seal the concrete with a garage floor style paint and just deal with it.
Thoughts?

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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

If you plan on having allot of moisture in the room, you could consider using bathroom drywall. I defends against moisure better than regular drywall. As far as the floor goes, I put pergo type flooring in my basement, but in my snake room, I just have cement so far. Eventually, I'll put the same flooring in there. Water doesn't affect it, if you wipe it up. There is a wax seal around every piece. Plain cement should be fine. I don't think you would even have to seal it. In my basement, if it gets chilly down there, I use one of those oil filled heaters. All of my snake enclosures have heat tape, so the heater is mostly for humans. This winter, I will crack a wiondow to get some of my snakes down to 55-60 degs for brumation. Good luck! Derek

So my first question is about the walls. I live in S.E. Virginia to give you an idea of my seasonal temp fluctuations/concerns. What is a relatively cheap way to wall the room in once insulation has been installed?

I did the same thing, although in my case the garage was already built. I also had poured concrete walls rather than 2x4 construction. I just walled off part of my third stall, giving me a 17' x 9' snakeroom. Not ideal, but I wanted to be able to fit a small vehicle in what was left of the third stall.

Regardless, I think drywall is best. The moisture-resistant stuff might not be a bad idea but I did not use it.

How about the shiny silver reflective material, or the blue sheets of styrofoam? Has anyone ever used this material?

I have used both, but neither is suitable for an exposed material. You'll need to have almost any insulation product covered with a fire-rated product. Foil covered polyiso or another other rigid insulation board is not fired rated and should not be used unless covered with drywall.

What would YOU use if you were starting from scratch?

It really depends on what type of heat you plan to use. Are you running an extension from your home's heating/cooling system? You mention an electric bill below so I'm guessing some sort of electric heat, but it will be helpful to hear exactly what you have in mind.

If you're open to suggestions, I would go with a dedicated system for the room. Some sort of 220V radiant heat system or possibly even a water-based radiant system in the garage floor. I planned on use large radiant heat panels from Pro Products. You can even still see the faint outlines on the ceiling where I mapped their location. I ended up going with a local supplier of radiant cove heaters which have worked fine, but I'm not 100% happy. But they were dirt cheap.

Whatever you use, I do recommend some sort of foil-faced insulation product.

My next immediate concern is the concrete floor. Concrete absorbs heat fairly readily, so Im concerned about heating/cooling issues and the electrical bill it'll generate. Would you consider building off the floor and going with a wooden floor and air space underneath to act as a buffer? But I dont want a wood floor because now I have to deal with water spillage issues. "So put a vinyl flooring product down over that" you say? Nope, now the cost is getting outrageous, plus if you've ever done vinyl flooring yourself you know it's a pain in the butt. So Im thinking just seal the concrete with a garage floor style paint and just deal with it.

I used pressure-treated 2x4's laid flat. I then used foil covered poly iso and laid that down between the 2x4's. The polyiso was only 1" thick so I had a 1/2" air space between the foil face and the top of the 2x4's. I used plywood tongue and groove subflooring and then used vinyl flooring over that. Since it was for a snake room I used the type that does not require adhesive. It just lays flat on the floor.

I live in South Dakota, it gets a$$ cold here. With two, 750 watt radiant cover heaters and a small ceiling fan I'm able to heat the room to 90* (if I wanted too) with the equivalent amps of seven, 100 watt light bulbs. My floor is only 1.5* cooler than my ceiling, despite the heaters being mounted near the ceiling.

Overall I'm reasonably happy with the room. However, I'm not sure I wouldn't do somethings differently. That's always the hard part about consctruction. You don't know what you want until you know what you don't like.

Let me know if you have any further questions. I'm home with the flu and probably left a lot of information out. The one thing I would really stress is learning about your local code. I was new to my area and had to learn a lot in order to do this myself.

Here is a picture. The radiant cove heaters are those tan, rectangular units up nears the ceiling.

Thanks for the long reply. I expected nothing less from you LOL!! I hope you're not too miserable right now.
My initial plan was to buy a 220 unit not too dissimilar from the kind you find in hotels, however the one I planned on doesnt live on the floor, it can be wall mounted. But then I thought, well my room is only 13x16, thats not all that big and the unit Im looking at is waaay overkill, so maybe I'll scale back. So I considered a cheap little electric heater for the winter to keep temps in the 40-50s and maybe framing a hole in the wall to mount a window unit for AC. There wont actually be any windows in the room to maximize wall space.
(Chris) I remember waaaay back when you were doing your room and I remember the posts you mentioned about the radiated heat panels. I've never investigated those in this area of the country, but Im sure it'll at least be worth the effort, so I'll certainly consider that style. What are the drawbacks to these units in your experience?
As for your vinyl flooring, did you at least attach the edges or use 1/4 round to prevent any slippage or water leakage underneath?
The electrical will likely be a 60amp panel, and hopefully this will carry the snakeroom and any tools I might be using in the garage portion.
I guess for lighting, I'll go with flourescent strips (all will be on a timer set for day/night) so as not to affect the temperatures, and the room will be set to something reasonable for the snakes, rather than providing individual cage heat sources. I keep ratsnakes, kingsnakes, some copperheads and some pigmys.
Thats all my brain can handle for right now, gotta go eat something and regroup.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

>>(Chris) I remember waaaay back when you were doing your room and I remember the posts you mentioned about the radiated heat panels.

The specific product I use gets to over 300*F surface temperature, meaning I can't put tall cage stacks very close to it. Also, mine produce a slight convection current, unlike the oversized radiant heat panels from Pro Products. This means I need to run the ceiling fan on reverse to keep the vertical temperature gradiant I have (which, to be fair, is pretty darn good, albeit with the fan running).

With the RHP's I would not need to run the fan and the surface temps would be much cooler, probably around 100*F. They also would be mounted on the ceiling, not on the upper wall.

Comparing full price to full price, I would prefer the RHP's. But a neighbor got me an incredible deal on my radiant cove heaters so it was a no brainer for me.

Regardless, I strongly recommend some sort of 220V radiant heater for your room.

I appreciate the insistance on that specific recommendation, and Im sure it'd make my life a bunch easier, but the truth is that it's gonna be way too much trouble to get a 220 line all the way around to where the electrical is coming from. The elcetrician has his work cut out for him. Let me help you visualize what he's up against. Picture a very boxy 2 story house with a crawlspace, with a sunroom off the left side, which is poured on a solid slab equally as high as the first floor. This means about 24 inches of fill dirt off the ground, and THEN a concrete slab to match up with the house. On the second floor, off to the right in a bedroom is where the breaker panel is. The garage will be added onto the far left of the sunroom. So the electrician will have to come out of my room, drop down the exterior wall, poke into the crawlspace. Run the line across the entire right to left, and then out the crawlspace, around the brick exterior of the sunroom, and then to the garage. This will be a heavy 60amp line, Im guessing 10 gauge maybe. This is gonna cost us about a grand just to run the line into a panel. Running a 220 line can only increase the cost by....MILLIONS!!!! Well, thats a joke, but...maybe I'll ask the contractor about it anyway. I need to look at how much the RHP will be too.
A thought struck me earlier too about lighting. Solatube. Sound cool?
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Wow, $300 for the DIY kit for Solatube. No way Jose!!!
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I have learned a lot about residential wiring recently but not enough to be of help here. My guess is that running two wires won't be twice the work of one, which is what you'll need for 220V.

Of course you still need a wire for a 20 amp circuit as well, so that would be three wires.

Think of this project as adding equity to your home. If it's going to be as expensive as you mention you might even go with a subpanel.

At any rate, Jeremy (aka Bighurt) will have some ideas. I'll e-mail him and point out this thread to him.

Thanks Chris, although I don't have all the answers I have a few ideas. First its not all in the volts but the Amps. One thing that depend on the whole project is your main panel. If you run a dedicated 220 line and some 20Amp line you may exceed the amp rating of the main box. 220 is often a 30Amp Twin circuit but for a long distance run as you speak, it could go up.

One thing I would suggest is figure out the Amp draw you will require. With that in mind you really only need to run one cable. Buy this I mean doing what most remote Garages have, a seperate panel. They run power from the main to a seperate (subpanel). This one run would provide power to a smaller 100amp panel per say. That is of course if the main can handle the additional load. From this subpanel you can then insert the twin 30 for the 220 line and a couple of 20's for your other needs.

I run a subpanel in my reptile rooms although I don't have 220 I do have 3 20amp circuit presently and will add more soon. In all honesty running more cable is easy. When you have to do it once the time is not much more hence the price won't go up millions but most likely the cost of cable. I perfer the subpanel idea cause like chris mentioned it will had equity to the home. With technology rising everyday selling the house to a computer Geek will get the most, cause who else needs all that power in one room!

Anyways good luck and if you do the work yourself make sure you look up the codes for your area.
Jeremy

Any other questions feel free to ask.
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"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

I agree with Chris, living in SD puts him in a similar enviroment with my conditions here in ND. I converted a basement into two reptile rooms both are insulated on the walls with extruded polysterene the pink stuff same as blue but different manufactures use diffent colors. I choose not to insulate the floor and it has not become an issue. Although you are right about the heat absorbtion I elevate all my cages and in the winter supliment my home heat with ground based oil filled radiators. Each stack of cages has one under the bottom cage. The space between the cages and the radient heat keeps the cage at the appropriate temp. My floor only gets down to 70F mid winter when temps outside dip into the -40F mark. The system isn't perfect but I wasn't willing to sacrfice room heigth to insulate the floor. Not planning on living in this house forever.
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"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

get a book or look online into more effiecant insulation, most contracters don't insulate under the slab, think of doing the outside walls of the snake room with 2X6's, very little extra cost lots more R-value, make sure vaper barriers are used correctly for your need. best of luck.

In the ideal situation, I would have gone with 2x6s, but we've already signed the contract, and we're getting out pretty cheap on it too. I'd planned on vapor barrier and all that in the walls before the drywall went up. Both sides actually since the backside of the wall that seperates the snakeroom and the garage probably wont have a finished wall on it, or maybe I'll just go ahead and do that anyway to hold the insulation in the framing.
What do you mean about insulating under the slab? I live in an area where the frost line is like.....6 inches down, so we dont have ANY heavy duty insulation regulations when dealing with concrete in the ground. I know the slab will be monolithic, where the footing and the slab itself will all be done in one pour.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

under slab insulation, use ridged panel foam board, concrete is not a good insulator, but is one real good conductor and you end up paying to heat or cool the ground under it(might as well put in drain and drop your spare change in there every day!!) look under solar home construction methods where they use a slab as thermal bank.