Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm going to Kissimmee this weekend for the pre-meeting regarding the Captive Wildlife Tech support group. I was thinking that I'm not sure what sort of input to give (other than my support for keeping permits availible) since most of what I have to say will be fairly obvious to the person we're meeting with.

While on principle I don't agree with them being required by law, I do agree in practice with the caging and housing requirements so I wouldn't really propose any changes there (but would probably oppose stricter requirements).

But one thing I've thought of before that might be appropriate to bring up now is this:
While I always reccomend that anyone wanting to keep hots get significant hands on training first, the requirement for 1000 hours and the shortage of places to put in those house makes it practically impossible for most people. I was able to take one day a week off from work plus saturday and put in 16-20 hours a week for over a year, basically running the reptile room at a refuge. My work situation allowed me to do that, and I just happened to start at the refuge at the right time, but very few people have those kinds of options. I had to drive 60 miles each way, and most people don't have anywhere that close.

After 1000 hours, I felt confident (and the people I worked with felt confident with me) handling anything from a corn snake to a PNG taipan with an attitude problem. Fine, I want to keep the serious stuff, I need to be prepared. BUT...anyone who just wants to keep a couple of pigmy rattlers or an eyelash viper has to put in the whole 1000 hours. Noone is going to do that. They will either keep them illegaly or have to give up. I know some people will say, "well if they're not that serious we don't need them getting into it", and I understand that position but I disagree, both on principle and because we could always use more support. Yes I understand more keepers could mean more bites and more bad press, but you can't have everything.

I would like to propose the following idea and would like input from anyone who can offer it before tomorrow afternoon:

Split venomous snakes into categories by handling difficulty (moreso than husbardry difficulty). All require safe housing.

The easiest require a manageable amount of training.
At worst, 100 hours and a test like class II animals.
Even better would be fewer hours but to verifiably include real training (not just cleaning cages while someone else does the handling).
My biggest fear with even mentioning class II is that someone might come up with the bright idea of making it so you have to meet the requirements separately for each species, which is not currently the case for venomous reptiles.

To keep the next more dificult category you need more traing and hours, but time served with your own collection that you've previously qualified for can count towards most of the hours. Some training is still required with snakes in the new category (or higher).

I can see where there could be endless debate about which species should be in which category, but as long as the worst ones are no harder to attain than now, I don't see that this could make it anything but better for someone trying to get started.

Everyone please let me know what you think of this idea and any modifications you can suggest...even if it's to say that you don't think things SHOULD be any easier (I don't want to misrepresent keepers in general).

Any other unrelated ideas you'd like me to bring up?

If nothing else, I think we need to suggest something that is a change in our favor, rather than being entirely defensive.

Sorry I didn't think to post this a few days ago...

P.S. I know 3 of the 4 members of the Miami-Dade antivenom unit, and spoke to two of them today (I went to see the cat-eating burmese). They are both keepers who support us and one of them will be at the tech support group meeting on the 20th to try and give their input.

Absolutely. I also thought the 1000 hours was excessive. If I could find a place to teach me I would have to dedicate over a year of spending time away with my family. I live in a state that does not have such laws yet. I have worked with dozens of hots. I got my first after over a year of research and many years experience with non-vens. Perhaps they could do it like your suggestions. Or how about a state supported class in which you have to pass written and oral tests.

Dan

Keep in mind if you don't like the 1000 hours rule, if you have a degree from a university or technical school relating to biological sciences or zoology you only need 500 hours.

Drop me an email. FLVenom04@yahoo.com

Joe

I got my Florida Venomous license years ago. I didn't do my 1000 hrs in Fl., I did it at a zoo in Texas.
All I did was have my Director write them a letter attesting that I had 1000 hrs of working venomous snakes. I attached the letter to my application. Thats all it took.
Perhaps if you can prove that you have 1000 hrs, (anywhere) and it can be verified that should be just cause to recieve your licence.
Randal Berry

>>Perhaps if you can prove that you have 1000 hrs, (anywhere) and it can be verified that should be just cause to recieve your licence.

That is one of the options, but the same argument still applies. Most people don't have a zoo with venomous nearby that will let them work. The zoo nearest me does not have venomous and if they did they sure wouldn't let anyone who wasn't a full-time employee handle them.

and being in Columbus at that, I dont have many options for mentorship. The closest zoo to me is the Columbus zoo and you can completely forget that idea with them. They rarely will hire people without some sort of degree in biology (or at least college level and currently attending for biology major) or something similar. It is illegal to own venomous in Columbus, but I still wish to gain the experience. I dont have anyone nearby who would be willing to mentor me either. Many people dont have easy access to a place for mentorship, especially for 1000 hrs. In your opinion, something like a copperhead, would it really be necessary to have 1000hrs worth of training to properly handle that snake? I personally wouldnt think so. King Cobra....entirely different story! I would certainly like to see things revised, but at the same time, it seems like it would make it less worth while for the state which would push it more towards a ban.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

Larry,
I used me (working at a zoo) as an example. I meant verified other than a zoo. A university, museum, wildlife park, so on and so forth.
After all, this is a Florida requirement, however, it is my understanding that if you live outside of the state, you still have to prove your hours.
Randal

>>Larry,
>>I used me (working at a zoo) as an example. I meant verified other than a zoo. A university, museum, wildlife park, so on and so forth.
>>After all, this is a Florida requirement, however, it is my understanding that if you live outside of the state, you still have to prove your hours.
>>Randal

I understood, and you are correct. I didn't mean to limit my response to zoos only. My point was that many people have NO real option nearby (as in within 100 miles or so).

And yes, this is a Florida requirement. I probably didn't make it clear that the meeting I am attending is about venomous regulations in Florida. However, Florida's model is often used as an example either when keepers are trying to get a ban replaced by a reasonable permit system or as a compromise position to hold off those looking to implement a ban, so I'm looking for input from anyone.

I agree, I think "classifying" appropriate skill levels will help ensure that people will make more of an effort to get themselves a mentor, because it will be easier to do so and not so intimidating. Especially when all you want to keep is a copperhead or crote, versus an elapid.
Getting a VRL in Florida is not easy and takes ALOT of commitment (>10yrs for me), but it is well worth it and speaks volumes about dedication.
I think the idea of grouping families and having a requirement for each group is sound, as they are so vastly different and require a diverse array of techniques and tools depending upon the ssp. in question.

The sad part about getting this experience is that most zoos, animal parks, and museums cannot afford the liability of having a "volunteer" work with potentially lethal wildlife and so the days of volunteering and exchanging labor for education are coming to a close. Even getting employed by these institutions seems to be more of a who you know versus what you know situation.
When licensed keepers can start instructing novitiates on a consistent basis I believe we will see more benefits.

What about the guy who doesn't KEEP hots but sometimes gets a snake call (to remove from a house) and it ends up being a hot snake?
What are the legal requirements for him to do so?
Must he have the venomous permit (1000 hr type)along with other permits and proper equipment/transport boxes/labels etc.?
And while we're on that subject, is it actually legal to relocate/release ANY snake once it has been captured??
I have heard yes and no, but at the time we were only talking of non venomous animals. The venomous part never was covered.
Anyone know for sure?
FWCC has lots of guys these days and many do not know all the laws they try to enforce.
Anyway, I have thought the 1000 hrs. thing was a bit much, but with all the bad press lately here in FL (most were not experienced keepers but rather laypersons handling venomous) it may be a steep uphill battle to get those requirements changed/eased any.
Good luck.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I would ask that you suggest a state run or independently sactioned venomous "boot camp" of sorts with a test at the end to certify the keeper. If the objective of the hours of training is to ensure that keepers have mastered the proper techniques and can safely and securely keep and handle venomous reptiles, then having a governing body ensure that the proper techniques are used and understood would be of greater use in ensuring both the keeper and publics safety. Explaining and demonstrating the proper techniques for housing, cleaning, feeding and handling venomous animals should be required for certification, not just finding someone with an existing permit to just "sign off" that you actually put in the 1000 hours. After all, how does the state have any idea that you didn't spend those 1000 hours doing everything wrong and maybe you were just lucky enough not to get nailed? I find it ironic that you can go to a gun show in Florida and take a class to get a concealed weapons permit, but no such system is available for a venomous reptile permit. Think about that, in less than one full day of training you can qualify for a permit to keep a loaded gun hidden on your person, one that can kill several people in the space of a minute. But if you want to keep a venomous reptile,you are required to complete the equivalent of 125 eight hour days of training.

When I was a volunteer at the Bronx Zoo reptile house, one of the keepers took me under his wing and trained me on the proper way to care for and handle venomous snakes. I was never allowed to handle any actual venomous animals there, but I was shown the proper way to open the cage, to use transfer boxes, to use a snake hook and tongs (under rare circumstances). I was taught to respect and fear the speed and unpredicatable nature of venomous snakes by training with non-venomous ones,Gonyasoma (red tailed green rat snakes). They were fast and aggresive and I remember the time one went flying up my hook and tagged my finger before I could react. I would have been in serious trouble if that was a mamba or even a mangove snake. But since I've moved to Florida, I've spent thousands of hours working with people with venomous permits, now the only venomous animal I have a real desire to keep are Heloderms. Should someone need to perform 1000 hours of training to keep a gila monster? Unless they have severe attention deficit disorder, they should be able to learn everthing they need to know in a day or so of proper training and testing. I would think that it is more likely that the need to complete 1000 hours of training, along with the increase in permit price from $5 to $100, was a means to reduce the number of people that the fish and game department must inspect. I understand their position to a certain extent, they are severly understaffed and must travel all over the state to inspect collections. Plus the media and legislature puts pressure on them for allowing such dangerous creatures to be kept in quiet neighborhoods every time a permitted keeper gets bit. The Fish and Game commision and the public at large could have greater confidence if the venomous keepers of the state had been trained and tested using uniform and agreed upon standards. The commission could fund these classes from tuition that was charged.

BTW - Gun lovers, don't fret I don't want to take away your guns, I just think it should be as easy to get a gila as a gun!

Brian