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Here is a couple pics of my Het Pied . This one is different from the others. It looks very busy and not clear like the others. Does anyone have het pied belly look like this ? Are het pied belly always clean. I am just wondering about this one.
Any comments appreciated. Thanks

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Steve Wheat
sfw43@direcpc.com

Does anyone have het pied belly look like this ?

Why shouldn't it look like that?
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

This ball just has a very busy belly, where as the other 5 hets look more similar(that is white clear belly). All were purchased and not hatched by me, I just noticed this one was different.
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Steve Wheat
sfw43@direcpc.com

Did you buy them all from the same person? Did the odd ball come from someone that sold you any of the others? I think it is possable it is het for pied, but the real deal is you have to trust who you got it from, as there is no real "set" of het pied traits.

Ben

There apparently is enough of a set of het pied traits for this one to be picked out as different.

The quotes I've heard are that around 70 - 80% of het pieds can be picked out by marker traits. Looks like this one might be one of the 20 - 30%. Or maybe it's a variation on the marker ...

How many sources did you find? I've read several posts mentioning the 70-80% marker trait trend, but all of these posts seem to trace back to a single post of no real scientific basis. Is the 70-80% marker trait trend simply an urban legend begun by a clever sales-minded hoaxster?

Chris
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mean people suck

What do you mean by "scores"?

I'm not saying that 70-80% of the ch with similar markings are het pieds. I'm talking about 70-80% of known het pieds having markers.

The 80% estimate was from a post I saw by Corey Woods. The 70% estimate was a post by someone who claimed that is what Peter Kahl quoted him.

I did also once read a post claiming that 50% of ch have the mark. Even if I began to believe that (I don't) there would still be a statistically significant higher tendency for hets to have it than for non-hets. In my experience the rate of ch with the mark is no more than a few percent and I would actually expect perhaps half a percent of ch to actually be het pieds if the gene is randomly distributed in the wild. That still leaves picking a ch het pied based on belly a bit of a stretch but it could be useful when looking at possible het clutches. It could also be abused when selling possible het clutches – both by crooks selling ch as possible hets (or even 100% hets) and by true possible het breeders picking out the markered ones before selling the non markered ones as full chance possible hets.

LMAO I didn't say "scores." I said "sources." How many sources did you find giving the 70-80% theory.

I wasn't talking about the CH either. Only CB PH Piebald. LOL

Ah ha! So it was Corey Woods who gave the 80% estimate! And some anonymous source who claims they heard it straight from the master, eh? (The "eh" was a tribute to Mr. Corey Woods.)

Thanks for the info.

Chris
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mean people suck

I've also seen a couple sources claiming that all of them have it but maybe their sample sizes aren't big enough. IMHO the evidence is overwhelming that there is a significant tendency for het pieds to have a partially pied belly.

Here's my theory:

I have seen quite a few Heterozygous Piebald animals that have the Ringer marker to some degree. This seems almost commonplace with the Heterozygous Piebalds. (This is not a guaranteed marker, but it is very common and worth noting.)

The PH Piebald marker trait is a basic two-part system -- (1) black lines along the belly and (2) clear three-scale wide belly.

The Ringer marker also has the three-scale wide belly.

I believe that the so-called PH Piebald marker trait may simply be an underdeveloped Ringer marker. The three-scale wide belly of the PH Piebald may be the same three-scale wide belly of the Ringer marker. In both cases, the black pigment has moved away from the belly scales toward the outer edge. However, if the Ringer marker is underdeveloped, then the black lines are never broken to allow the clear belly to move upward (beyond the edges of the belly). This would result in a very low wannabe Ringer marker -- the PH Piebald marker.

Who knows?

Chris
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mean people suck

Last week I pulled out about half my collection and took pictures of their bellies - for the belly game - most people thought that most of those snakes were/could be het pied - as a majority of the snakes had "het markers" to some extent. This was half of my collection all of them except one were normals and I didn't even break into the big girls rack (they'd eaten the night before).

How bout this theory:

The "marker" traits are a phenotype in and of themselves and it's just something that was crossed into the pied line very early on - thus keeps appearing.

It would be interesting to research just how many other "hets" have the same "marker trait" as I do have hets of other morphs that also have the "pied markers" and how many times (percentage) the "pied markers" appear in normals compared to pieds.

Now I need my cup of coffee.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

That is very true. Many other animals (besides Heterozygous Piebald) have the Ringer marker. I read somewhere about a theory of malnutrition and underdeveloped pigments due to a kink in the umbilical during the late developmental stages. This could cause the Ringer marker in any animal. What if the Piebald gene has the same effect? The gene inhibits some sort of enzyme needed for full pigment development. This would account for other animals showing the Ringer marker.

In other words...the Ringer marker in both Heterozygous Piebalds and other animals looks the same, but has two totally different causes. One is due to developmental (umbilical) restriction, the other is due to genetic (enzyme) restriction.

I'm just brainstorming here.

Chris
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mean people suck

here is Jasmine (the girl I bred this season) looks pretty good for het pied right - clear 3 white scale belly thick black lines running up the sides, etc ....

Here are some of her babies - she passed the belly pattern on to half her clutch ....

There were two more that were close to having a clear belly but did have some pattern on it so I didn't include them. If the clean belly "pied marker" is genetic on normals it may be safe to assume that the pied marker could just be an added pheontype bred into the pied line. and yes that first one is a ringer too. LOL.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Consider this - If I bred her to a het pied - there would be a very good chance that that "pied marker" belly would be passed onto offspring that did not inherit the pied gene.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

All but one were bought from the same person. This one is a replacement for one that didn't make it. And it is from a different collection.
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Steve Wheat
sfw43@direcpc.com

Well, I guess it really comes down to your judgment. You have already brought up a good red flag. It is my personal openion that you can not just look at a snake and tell its a het pied... now that does not mean you can look at one and tell its not a het. That I dont know.

I would wonder what kind of guarantee this breeder offered you... and to what extent. Is it a male or female? The price difference and time investment between a male and female is huge. Did they provide picture ID of the NEW animal and a signed document? This wont provide too much, but at the very least they should be willing to guarantee the genetics of a het pied.

Just my thoughts.

Ben