Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Saw Bill O’Reilly show last night showing some fools with their infant children lying on the floor in the gentle coils of their pet python, with generous images of the baby sucking on the python’s tail like a pacifier. Come on people, please don’t feed these images to the press! Can you see the handwriting on the wall? You are going to lose the right to maintain large constrictors with irresponsible “escapes”, deliberate releases and idiotic actions that the press is all to willing to attribute to anyone who would desire such a “pet”.
Here in south Florida we are getting enormous amounts of bad publicity from pythons that have been introduced into the “everglades”. It is bad for all keepers of reptiles.
South Florida has a huge number of non-natives that have been introduced, including many plants, toads, eels, fish, parrots, iguanas and snails. There are many deliberate introductions by wildlife officials too, including moths to eat the introduced melaluca plant, fish to eat the water hyacinth, and even western cougars to beef up the genetic pool of native panthers. The python has become the media darling. These large snakes make sensational news stories, and they always end with the irresponsible snake keeper to blame.
It would seem to me the live-bearing common boa would be the most logical of the large constrictors to flourish here rather than the egg-laying python, yet there have been close to two hundred Burmese pythons eradicated from Everglades national park in the last two years. These can’t all be “pets that got too big”; the eradication effort is not in the neighborhoods that are at the edge of town but inside Everglades national park, by park officials. Quite a little drive, past some fairly rural areas, for someone just to dump a python.
Who can explain the predominance of the Burmese as an established breeding colony rather than the boa? Are they more manageable and less likely to be deliberately released? Are the boas more arboreal and less noticeable?
Anyone else with meandering random thoughts?

FWIW, that pic is from canada.

You probably right in saying that because boas reach a more manageable size people probably dont release them as much as burmese pythons. I could be wrong, but arent burms less expensive in pet stores than a bci or a bcc? This could account for people ignorant of snakes buying a burmese on more of an impulse than the more expensive, but more manageable boa. I know in pet stores by me in jersey, i've seen burms go for a little less than 100, where as boas are more around the 200 range. I'm probably gonna irritate alot of people with this, but i feel like your average petco or any other chain pet store should not be allowed to sell burms, retics, anacondas, rocks, or amethystine(spelling). This is not to say people should not be allowed to own them, i just feel if people are forced to go on the internet and look up these snakes to buy from a breeder, they might learn about the sizes and proper management of these large snake, as opposed to walking in a pet store and seeing a cute little, inexpensive baby burm and buying it on a whim not realizing that they have just bought a snake that could potentially reach 20ft long.

Isaw the last part of that show. O'Reilly is an idiot, as are certain people who keep snakes. I think the problem is that Burmese outgrow their owners quicker than boas do. As long as you have clowns walking around in public with their snakes wrapped around their necks, you'll have trouble. I think with that group...it's a phallic thing, lol
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 MacLotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)

I posted some suggestions of ways to help mend this problem in the burmese forums on two threads. As an owner of large constrictors living in so fla I feel threatened by the recent bad press snakes have been getting.

In my attempt to be proactive I have come across a captive care commission created by FWC, on which a respected member of the herp world sits. My qualms with this commission is that it is legislative in nature and doesnt focus on the hobbyists point of view regardless of who is on it. We do not necessarily need more laws to regulate our hobby however I do agree something needs to be done to curb the problems associated with large constrictors.

As a result of one of my other posts someone told me about the AFH, an organization of herpetoculturists who have issued documents regarding proper husbandry etc of these animals. In the last 3-4 years of perusing these forums I have not seen them mentioned at all nor their literature recalled.

The person who replied to the other thread stated that their documents have been used to influence legislation etc but I am not familiar enough to comment on that.

What I proposed was an organization of responsible reptile keepers. What the herp world needs right now is a credible organization to provide an educational message within the stories airing about GIANT KILLER PYTHONS.

This could be accomplished in one of two ways: 1)We could create a new organization and have local chapters, regional chapters, underneath a national umbrella group or 2) We could create the umbrella organization under which all existing herp organizations could become members of.

In the very recent past, I read an article in the Sun Sentinel, a south florida newspaper, stating the decline in local herpetological societies. They blamed this on the rise in the use of the internet. Members of the local herps society interviewed stated that individuals on these forums never meet each other and have no connection to each other personally.

I think we can all agree that these comments do have some merit, albeit very little. I see these comments and the recent events in FL, as an opportunity to merge the old ways of the local herp societies into a larger organization that would be seen as a credible authority on reptile husbandry and the hobby to the general public, the media, and the nation as a whole.

This organization gives us the opportunity to create membership standards etc. furthering our mission to establish a nationwide network of responsible keepers. This can only be a positive thing for all of us in the hobby.

I would really like to get this rolling and I have already gotten a few emails from some folks expressing interest. These are just my initial thoughts so if you are interested, please email me so we can begin to discuss. A credible organization would do our nationwide community a lot of good. I urge you all to forward me your thoughts.

Thanks,
Michael
mtragash@gmail.com
954-701-1044

P.S. This is not just for owners of large constrictors or venomous but rather for ALL REPTILE KEEPERS.
-----
Jon

A legislative organization that produces no legislation is perceived as a failure. Same with any politician. Remember Kerry getting ripped for his lack of legislation in the sixteen years he served Massachusetts? Maybe it is a noble, mighty struggle to keep things from changing sometimes. And highly under-rated.
There is no way to stop the sensational aspect of the story from the people in the “infotainment” industry that passes as news. Python eats cat- that’s getting air time. Like I mentioned- we have deliberately introduced two hundred pound western cougars into the everglades (never mind that last I looked into it I think it was a total failure). But actually a boring story. Wait until “Cougar eats housecat”. Not boring. Will be on every station. The irresponsibility of this deliberate introduction will be controversial, like the repopulated wolf that kills somebody’s dog, etc. O’Reilly will call them “pinhead” and huff and puff.
In these same neighborhoods with the loose pythons you can find black widow spiders under the lawn chair, coral snakes under the patio stones, pygmy rattlesnakes in the planter, caimans and water moccasins on the golf course and on and on. South Florida is crazy with the things that you see down here. On the tv show Animal Cops they showed a king cobra being removed from a vacant lot. We have monkeys, monitors, man it is really crazy if you think about it. It is wrong to shine the spotlight on the python alone without mentioning these other things that are thriving just as successfully. This is not just because of irresponsible snake keepers. Just imagine the list of plants that have invaded the native vegetation- there is no comparison in numbers, just not such a sensational story.
All the publicity got me to thinking. My real question was why the Burmese and not the boa? Two separate topics, really. Thanks to all who contributed.

I couldnt agree more completely with you. Florida is an introduced species haven and we have so many invaders we cant count anymore. The problem is that this animal has begun to invade suburbia and they are potentially a threat to the residents. While you are correct that news will always cover these stories, they are more than willing to provide the expert opinion from someone credible. This crediblity would stem from position in the organization of responsible reptile keepers. This person would issue responses from the organization in regard to backlash etc. providing that educated/expert opinion the media will happily cover.

In regards to your comment about the legislative body that doesnt enact laws is not really a legislative body. I would also agree. This organization will be able to create documents to educate the public as well as for lobbying legislators etc. This would ultimately unify keepers around the country and place them under one umbrella of standards etc

Credibility is the key and now is the time to create it.

Whos with me? Email me.
Michael
mtragash@gmail.com
-----
Jon

The problem is that most reporters don't take the time to seek out credible sources in stories like this. I knew someone who wrote for the local station I worked for....he was told to write for an 8th grade level so people would understand what he wrote
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)

That is precisely why we need this organization. We can actively promote responsible husbandry and give the media an expert outlet to go to. WE can be on call with the media to insure that the sensational story is tamed down with actual facts about reptiles in captivity and in this case, the reality of the situation with burms.
-----
Jon

I think creating an organization of responsible reptile owners is a great idea. As someone who is getting my education about reptiles mostly from the internet and having so much contradictory information, I think it would be great to have a reliable information base for pet owners and by doing so would give credibility to the organization.

Interestingly, in a recent issue of "Risk Analysis," there is a paper thats surprisingly good, for a non-herper (they consulted the Barkers, among others), analyzing the risk and threat of 23 species of boids. They rank the BCI/BCC as risk number 1 on one of their scales. Its a matter of if, not when, especially given the greater temperature range that can accomodate Latin American boas.

I'll find the citation if anyone is interested.

I would be interested in that information if you can post it.
How about we all get together for a "Burmese round-up". I don't know about you, but the idea of snake hunting and catching a ten foot snake still gets me perked... Maybe if we had a snake hunt, sponsered by a local herp club, we could demonstrate some responsability. We have the most interest in seeing to it these snakes do not become an established nusiance. We might be better positioned to find responsable homes for the snakes instead of destroying them. We could also get the word out that anyone who has a pet that has outgrown its welcome can be responsably donated to anyone in the local herp club and it will be taken- no questions asked. We would best know how to deal with it. It might generate some good publicity for responsable herpers.
I, for one, after the "good" publicity stunt, would be all for catching these snakes and not telling anyone- to avoid negative publicity and avoid padding the "invasive" body count.

Pretty hard to find even a 10-15' animal in the 'Glades. Odd about the Boas being up on the risk list. Very few Common boas get over 8', while that's just a starter for the Burmese. Albinos might be easier to see
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)

Id be totally down for the round up. Actually it was gonna be my next suggestion. Problem is I have to agree with the previous post about it being difficult. Without knowing how many are out there and where to begin looking etc it could be quite a daunting task.

Lets forget that and even go as far as to say we do get em. You say donate them to local herp clubs etc. I say who has the time, space, etc for all those snakes. I agree we need a rescue opp in place for unwanted snakes etc perhaps there is a govenrnmet grant out there for us. Who knows. Someone must and by discussion we are on the right track.

Anyone up for a local meeting???

Michaell
mtragash@gmail.com
-----
Jon

The boas were high on the risk list for being able to establish themselves, not for posing any threat to humans. The paper wasn't interested in the threats to humans so much as the impact on the local ecosystems of new apex predators, and the possible transmission of harmful non-native parasites and bacteria from released specimen.

The citation is

Reed, Robert N. "An Ecological Risk Assessment of Nonnative Boas and Pythons as Potentially Invasive Species in the United States." Risk Analysis, Vol. 25, No. 3, 2005. 753-766.

Ah.....ok. Still odd. Maybe because they're from the Americas, and parasites and such would be easier to transmit.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)

I heard something about using dogs to search for pythons in the everglades. It seems that that could work well. Hopefully..

AS far as why burms? Its proboibly a combination of things. Burms get bigger faster and they are born larger then boas. This means that less of them will end up food for gators, birds, snappers, etc. And a big angry mama python more then makes up for the vulnerablility of eggs compared to live born babies. Also, people probobly release more burms as they do reach a more unmanagable size. Boas would be more inconspicuous. They are smaller, less likely to eat full grown pets, and more arboreal. Just ideas, I'm sure there are others...