Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently acquired an adult Pit for my large collection. He is an aggressive feeder; but his stools have that awful smell that suggests something indigested in them (Not the normal pungent smell of Pit stools...). Although he feeds well, he is a bit thin (not enough that I noticed in photos before purchasing him).

Combination of lack of body weight and passing stools that are not-fully-digested - parasites ? Any advice on what to treat him with ? I have panacur and flagyl on hand.

Well I hate to say it but you need to take a very thorough look at the next pile the snake leaves[I know...lots of fun]. What I suggest you keep an eye out for is mucousy/cheezy stuff within the sample. It is usually white, clear, or greenish. That would make me lean more towards a bacterial infection, which Panacur and Flagyl won't do much for. A fecal exam is a good idea, I learned how to do my own...and a cheap microscope is all you need. If it is bacterial you will need some anti biotics like Baytril which must be injected. I feel the most thorough way to find out if a snake is "perfect" is witha cloacal smear. Not cheap, but if you have a large collection and fear you have a sick animal which could contaminate your snake room I would do it. It would not hurt to run some of the parasite type meds you have through it. Panacur is especially forgiving if the dose is not perfect. My vet swears by Baytril for use outside his office. Some of the other anti biotics are better but the dosage is more critical as far as being perfect. You should look for a vet to help you score the meds you need, which means paying for an office visit and getting your foot in the door. It is well worth it. I have a bottle of Baytril which has a ton of doses in it, and the syringes I use are insulin types easily available at most pharmacies. If the snake has any cooties, it most likely means it was kept in unsanitary conditions before you got it. One major important step to help you get past this, and to get a proper diagnosis as best you can at home is to keep the snake on newspaper and clean and disinfect like a madman when the snake defecates. I went through a scare last year, and in the end it was a bad batch of rodents that was most likely the cause. If you need any other input[from a snake guy...not a vet by any means] feel free to email me. I spent big bucks, and worked long hours on my crisis last year. But the bottom line is I did not lose a single snake, and now I am all that much more confident I have an above average knowledge of what to look for, and what is the best way to treat things. I will have to mention though, I do speak with my vet about any issues to make sure I am on the right track. He swears Baytril is a wonder drug. It is VERY effective. Especially when you catch the symptoms early on and begin treaitng before the snake is a mess. Tom Stevens

Indiscriminant use of antibiotics is why we have so many resistant strains of bacteria today. Improper use (such as too low of a dosage, not giving enough dosages, or too frequent use) makes antibiotics relatively ineffective. That's why stronger and stronger antibiotics need to continuously be used! Don't believe me? Look at tetracycline. It is hardly ever used because WAY too many infectious bacteria now have resistant strains!

>>Well I hate to say it but you need to take a very thorough look at the next pile the snake leaves[I know...lots of fun]. What I suggest you keep an eye out for is mucousy/cheezy stuff within the sample. It is usually white, clear, or greenish. That would make me lean more towards a bacterial infection, which Panacur and Flagyl won't do much for.

You are correct on Panacur (use it to treat things like internal worms), but incorrect on Flagy. Flagyl IS an antimicrobial. (It has some other uses, too.) It and Baytril, for example since you mentioned it, are both in that group. They just are used to treat different microbes along the spectrum of anaerobic to aerobic, gram positive versus gram negative, etc.

Additionally, some species (tricolorted kings, indigos, rattlesnakes, etc.) are very senstive to Flagyl. I'm nervous about EVER giving Flagyl to a milksnake. No real problems yet, but I've seen what happens giving them a standard dose. It can be ugly.

>> A fecal exam is a good idea,

I agree. If you can't do it yourself, fork over the money to have a vet do it before you start treating it yourself. THAT is the best advice anyone can give you.

> anti biotics like Baytril which must be injected.

You can get and use oral Baytril, also. Since injectable Baytril can cause local necrosis, there are some definite benefits to using oral Baytril. Baytril can be VERY hard on the kideys, so be careful of where you inject it. Also don't use the injectable Baytril for more than a first few dosages - switch over to oral Baytril if you need additional dosages.

> I feel the most thorough way to find out if a snake is "perfect" is witha cloacal smear.

For anyone interested, remember that some pathogens are infrequent shedders, so a "sick" animal maye appear clean on MANY fecals since the pathogen isn't entering the feces. Then BOOM, it is all over the feces for a couple shots. Then, no more. Rinse and repeat. Crypto, for example, is a sporadic shedder. Stomach gavage is the best way to test for that one, but even that isn't 100% reliable.

> It would not hurt to run some of the parasite type meds you have through it.

But they can inhibit appetite. In a sick snake, this can be a BAD thing if the medication isn't actually needed.

> Panacur is especially forgiving if the dose is not perfect.

Very.

> My vet swears by Baytril for use outside his office.

Too many of them do that as a "blind treatment." Not saying your vet is in that group, but if they are: find a better vet.....lol.

> He swears Baytril is a wonder drug. It is VERY effective.

I used to laugh and call it a super-drug. "If Baytril didn't kill it, nothing would." All in JEST, of course, since I am STRONGLY against shotgun treatments. However, I was unlucky enough years ago to run into a strain of bacteria that was resistant to baytril. Should have worked, but didn't. Whether it was due to the improper use of Baytril by people, I don't know, but it WAS a resitant strain. I sure as hell hope it has died out. I lost about 10% of my animals, it was airborne so almost EVERYTHING showed clinical signs, and the meds cost an arm and a leg for us to purchase wholesale (no vet mark-up). Had to clean cages with a special cleanser (bleach AND Roccal-D weren't doing a good enough job), etc. Not pretty. Lost an adult male P. ruthveni to that bug, too.

Don't rely on it to heavily. I would also STRONGLY discourage the use of Baytril in African House snakes. They seem to have a greater level of sensitivity to it than any other snake I've ever given Baytril.

KJ

Hey KJ, I realize I shoulda said what you did about Flagyl being used for more than deworming but I was trying to keep it brief. I also mentioned there are better meds than Baytril but vets discourage us do it your selfers from using them since they can do a lot of damage if you dose too high. All in all I would like to think the combination of our posts gave a fair amount of valid info for everyone. I always encourage people too look into this aspect of the hobby, as both of us know when cooties come a knocking it is time to panic, and having a bit of knowledge about these things before hand can really be helpful. You know, I did not realize that was you with Don at the show in Austin. My hearing is pretty terrible, so if you introduced yourself and I missed that I apologize. I would have liked to talk snakes with ya. Tom Stevens

>>You know, I did not realize that was you with Don at the show in Austin. My hearing is pretty terrible, so if you introduced yourself and I missed that I apologize. I would have liked to talk snakes with ya. Tom Stevens

You were at that show? Dang, i missed a lot of people! you are about the third to tell me we saw/talked, but never realized that "I was me and they was them." That's upsetting - i'd have enjoyed the visit, too. I always love to talk herps (too much my wife says). Matter of fact, it is my second hobby of two that I like to talk about in great detail! That's upsetting - maybe next time we'll hook up!

By the way, on the drug stuff - my owner (the Evil Incarnate) is a DVM. I get "lectured" a lot on that stuff, so what I repeat often turns out sounding kinda like a lecture by accident.....lol. She was the short runt with dark, REALLY long hair at the herp show telling me what to do and usually causing me physical harm for something I've recently done wrong!

KJ

I was literally right across from Don. I had some Sonorans and Milks in a display case, and some adult Mexican Pines. Of course my table was covered in baby Corns too. Locally Pit people are a rare commodity. Most want to talk about local herps or venomous and they just do not pay much attention to my ranting and raving over Pits. I just produced an odd colored Amel Southern Pine. It is Orange and Yellow as opposed to Pink and White. I am going to post a pic a in few. I am interested to hear what everyone has to say about it. Tom Stevens

Tom and KJ - thanks much for the advice - will keep you posted -
Craig

go to a pet store and buy some flagyl in the caplet form and mix the appropriate amount (see dosing charts on the web) and administer. That snake will be pooping normal in no time.
Russ

obviuously you want to pay more attention to KJ's post as he has alot more experience and a Vet in his house My reply was simply a sign of "good luck" I've had using flagyll.

Russ