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The reason for my discussing reptiles as I do

casichelydia Oct 15, 2005 12:21 AM

is because dogs and cats are indeed a whole different care genre. Even birds are out of the park compared to traditional reptiles. The reason is that when it comes to keeping any of the first three, we don't wind up with animals that are completely environmentally-strapped.

What I mean by that is, birds, dogs, cats, even naked mole rats, regulate most of their physiologic processes from within. Since reptiles never developed insulating fat layers and tiny countless involuntary muscle contractions for temp regulation, they have to largely rely on their respective environments to properly maintain necessary metabolic functions. In order to manipulate their surroundings for optimal high and low metabolic rates, reptiles use behaviors that we don't see in most mammals and birds. This makes us less able to "relate" to them and their needs.

The funny thing is, give a keeper a functional understanding of how basic reptile phisiology works, how physiology alters reptile behavior, hints on how this applies to captive maintenance, and all of the potentially misleading care guides and magazines become obsolete. Once a keeper understands the basis for how and why reptiles live, and have to live, as they do, that keeper has a marked home field advantage. When understandings that allow the keeper to circumvent confusion by reading his or her own animals exists, things are all of a sudden comparatively simple. Believe it or not, that is what all of my long-windedness gets at - the simplicity that can come of a basic understanding of how and why reptiles function, and have to function, the way they do.

Reptile veterinarians address problems. This is a service needed by many reptile keepers. But, what my points get at are ways for keepers to address the factors that precipitate the problems, before the problems occur. In short, how do we properly understand and thus provide for these animals in order to cut a need for the vets' recovery services out? This can serve as a problem in and of itself, since many impulse keepers don't want to have to think for themselves. They want each species of reptile sold as or caught for a pet to come with setup and maintenance instructions, like a car, only presumably far cheaper. This is, of course, not possible. The most realistic way to approach such a desire is to learn the basics of reptile physiology and how that affects their behavior. From there, you are ready to tackle less known, more species- or locale-specific factors.

The problem with my suggested approach is, as you can see by the above obese paragraphs that merely describe the approach, it is initially learning-intensive and independent. Even though the applicable understandings that will come of the approach will likely make things clearer in the long run, care guides and pet books provide direct "authoritative" (funny word, if you think about it) answers that keepers want to hear. Those heavenly concrete instructions.

So, many people like care guides. Care guides are very rule-oriented. They go from a top-down approach. Details and specifics come first and generally are not backed up in strong context. Why? Consider that the information given can originate anywhere. Somewhere, sometime, some person records a basking box turtle as having a cloacal (~anal) temp of 34C. Now, one care guide after another gets ahold of and publishes this arbitrary single temp measurement and now tons of the country's pet shoppers are convinced that box turtles need a basking spot measuring 34C. Why should we assume that a local body temp should equal the provided basking temp? Also figure, that temp was taken from one animal at one time with no history and little context given. See the problem?

I think advice given on forums is often more usable, since the setting is interactive and readers of the advice have (presumably?) a greater ability to take it or leave it. Meaning, anyone who doesn't like my indirect wordiness can skip over every post with my screen name attatched and instead read quick-remedy-style posts. Much forum advice given is similar in nature to care guides - either regurgitated in turn from such sources or extrapolated from a writer's individual animals. The writer's animals that are providing information for a potential solution to someone else's animal's problem are themselves out of context, since they are not the someone else's animals and are not in that someone else's setup. Thus, the person with the initial problem now has a new problem - that of applied interpretation.

The reason I don't discuss what the animals I maintain do is because they live outdoors in East Baton Rouge Parish, LA at present. It was almost ninety degrees in some patches of the enclosure today. What were the hottest patches outside in WA measuring? See? It's more complex to figure out what far-away animals' behaviors mean compared to yours, especially when you're comparing outside animals to inside animals, which are subject to restricted spaces and the influences of air-conditioning and/or dry heating, forced humidity ranges, and often erratic photoperiods.

To give you a more digestable version of all the above hullaballoo, go with the smartsie-fartsie-seeming physiology and behavior basics, then you can tackle your own problems with applied common sense. That's almost always easier than calculating what someone else's results might mean with regards to your animal. This was all just to get you thinking. I understand that this is over just one pet animal, but, you seem to ask more curiosity-driven questions than does the average "unplanned" box turtle owner. So, you get more length here than you might have bargained for. Incedentally, I think cats are good pets, too, as none of the turtle species I maintain make biscuits or purr. All the best.

Replies (8)

casichelydia Oct 15, 2005 12:33 AM

to Itchybears, just below. I also posted the wrong picture above. Time for beddy bye.

Itchybears Oct 15, 2005 11:36 AM

Well, thanks for your explanation of your philosophy of sharing your knowledge.

Basically, I was just being friendly and wanted to know where you knowledge comes from and was curious about your animal loving experiences.

I have found all the people on this board to be friendly and helpful. StephF has been particularly helpful, sending me links to learn more details about why Yurtle does what Yurtle does.

Hope you have a great week-end.

Lori

casichelydia Oct 16, 2005 01:48 AM

I wouldn't call that which I discuss knowledge so much as exposure. The more exposure I encounter, the more experience I can bang a drum over. That means more for me to learn from, and more to apply.

General herpetology texts are a good place to start for understanding behavior and physiology basics. Harvey Pough's Prentice Hall "Herpetology" is a great one for a less-technical (although that's relative!) audience, and since it's now in the third edition, the first or second ed. can be had rather cheap.

Web sites can be a gamble, and I haven't invested much in them other than to access pdf's of journal publications. That's just me; many of them rub me the same way care guides do. Important to note, there are wonderful exceptions to both out there.

The most important exposure, beyond evaluating care guides or internet sites or research papers or general texts for captive application, is that to the actual animals. It is my interaction with and observation of these animals, sieved through the general understandings (all of which can be wrought from the aforementioned title) I profess as so important, that enable me to play energizer bunny on the ks forum many late nights. You have a good weekend, too.

StephF Oct 15, 2005 03:35 PM

I suspect that 'Itchybears' was asking about what you do and what animals you keep because you've not identified or introduced yourself, as is customary on a forum of this kind, and not because she wanted to copy your outdoor setup.

Stephanie

casichelydia Oct 16, 2005 12:06 AM

Why again?

I didn't think anyone wanted to copy a "my setup." That would completely contradict what I was discussing. Whatever Baton Rouge box turtles are doing doesn't relate to what an inside, or outside, box turtle in Washington is doing. Get it?

I know the route I encourage differs from yours. Yours is okay, too, even though you might not think the inverse. Your posts tend to fall into the suggest-a-fix category, whereas I try to eliminate a need for that category. Make any sense? Get people to think, I am a reptile, I am a box turtle. How do I function? Why do I function that way? How might that apply to my stay in captivity?

Short, overly-specific details aren't likely to help anyone develop an ability to think on their own about the overall matter (general reptile functions); elaborations on general principles about those functions, can. But, such discussion will only help those who want to learn for themselves. For any others, they can simply skip the post; did you forget that kind of freedom exists?

chris_mcmartin Oct 15, 2005 07:05 PM

Very eloquent and level-headed post. I tend to take the opposite tack when discussing topics on these forums (discussing my personal experiences with my own captives), as I don't want to come across as the "authoritative" answer ("this is how you should maintain your turtles", but rather just what has proved successful in my direct experience (~25 years with the same two box turtles, an ornata and a c. triunguis). Folks are welcome to take it or leave it.

Shoot, I don't even remember hearing the concept of "temperature gradient" as it pertains to captive herps until the 90s. Even so, so many care sheets/books seem to take a "cookbook" approach to captive herp maintenance. Instead of reading such materials as unwavering care specifications, I tend to think of them as useful "starting points" to be fine-tuned as the situation warrants.

Basically, once one "cracks the code" and starts "thinking like a herp," it becomes apparent that some species, and some individuals within a given species, are surprisingly tolerant of a wider range of conditions, as well as more resilient in response to outside-optimal-range conditions, than most people realize. After all, they HAVE to be, or they wouldn't have survived on Earth so long.

On the other hand, not every individual in a given population "makes it" through such experiences as hibernation, hatching, maturing, reproducing, etc. so the care sheets/books are GENERALLY written to produce satisfactory results for captives (a good yardstick of successful husbandry, in my opinion, is successful reproduction over multiple generations).

I'm sure I had a point somewhere, but I'm tired.
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

casichelydia Oct 16, 2005 01:18 AM

Reptiles are indeed tolerant of enviro-abuse, be it in a natural setting or in captivity. Anyone can visit a multitude of petshops small and down-home or large and corporate to find visual tribute to just how good enviro-abused reptiles are at lingering.

Reptiles are resiliant, as you state, some individuals moreso than others. This is a tricky part. We don't want to own up to that fact. If we pay sixty bucks each for three baby box turtles, we expect, for reasons of love, interest, financial security, all three to have an equal chance of surviving and reproducing. They don't. As individuals, their individual fitnesses differ.

The more a person can "read" his or her reptile(s), the more absurdity for reading care guides there beomes. Why? You said it yourself - think like a reptile. When you think that way, you go about everything with generalities, which allow for those individual differences in the captives. Most reptile care guides emphasize particular temps, setups, photoperiods, humidities, hide types, etc. that don't allow optimal room for differing individual fitnesses.

Extrapolating applications for one's captive(s) from someone else's captives can result in similar difficulty, since doing that can foster the mentale "It worked for those animals, so, it has to for mine. They're the same." We forget that when we go below our categories of genus, species, and the more arbitrary subspecies, there is still another important category - that of the individual.

We, as captive animal harborers, are trying to defeat survival of the fittest individual. We nurture every animal, the weaker ones getting extra time yet, because we want all to succeed. In order to manipulate the animals and their environments to best achieve this unrealistic goal, we have to allow for an understanding of their base physiological and behavioral requirements, because then we can let them do the rest, whether they're weak, strong, or somewhere in the middle. That does bring up a strong delimma, but, since it is with regards to reproduction, it belongs in another thread.

PHRatz Oct 16, 2005 12:32 PM

>>The more a person can "read" his or her reptile(s), the more absurdity for reading care guides there beomes. Why? You said it yourself - think like a reptile. When you think that way, you go about everything with generalities, which allow for those individual differences in the captives. Most reptile care guides emphasize particular temps, setups, photoperiods, humidities, hide types, etc. that don't allow optimal room for differing individual fitnesses.

This is going off on kind of a different tangent for this thread but what you said about "reading your own reptiles" that's the part that thrills me the most about keeping them. I have the care guides, textbooks, etc. etc. I've read them, but real life can't compare with the written words.
Once you get to know each one, you can see such differences in them and you know what's normal for that one or this one, but no two are ever the same.
Each one teaches me what they want or need because I sit back & allow them to communicate with me in their own way. I know they aren't human or dogs, I know they don't love me. They aren't exactly interactive pets but in same ways they are that because but they can communicate with me. That's because I can read them.
The intelligence they exhibit completely fascinates me. Then I meet people who don't know a box turtle from a snapping turtle who think they're just moving rocks & I can't understand how it is that these people can't see the intelligence in them that I see.
You do have to take the generalities then tweak them to fit the needs of the animals in your own care. Once you have that down, it's not difficult at all.
Over the years I've gotten more out of discussing them with other people on message boards than anywhere else. I love knowing about other people's exeperiences with them in real time. It's the most helpful info I've ever gotten be it right, wrong, or somewhere in between.
-----
PHRatz

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