Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is more of a funny observation than anything. Please don't take offense. I browse the for sale ads and see boas that cost thousands of dollars. At the end of most of the ads are shipping cost??? Now shipping, especially for a neonate, is what like $50-$75. You are telling me that you can't just eat that cost since you are making over 90% profit on a $4000-$8000 Snow, Sunglow, Motley, etc. I plan on breeding higher-end boas at some point in the future and anything over $1000 will get free shipping.
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2.0 Salmon BCI (one is possible het Snow)
0.2 High Pink BCI "normals"
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa

I think it seems cheap.

We have paid shipping on anything over $500 for many many years. In fact we might have actually started the trend, remember there used to be "box" charges also. I absolutely feel the same way, if I'm buying an expensive snake, it amazes me that someone would charge for shipping. Even though the cost has increased when we originally started from I think $32 to $76, I can't see a time where I wouldn't incorporate this expense into our pricing. One reason that individuals charge for shipping is that they are brokering animals--even high dollar ones, so their profit margins are not the same as if they hatched or had the baby born at their facility. Believe it or not some of the profit margins can be very small, so shipping multiple animals on a resale deal would make it almost not worth doing. That actually was part of our strategy when we started this practice--to make it "cost the other guy!"

Tracy/VPI

I think a large part of why you see this is the person selling the high end animals is also selling the low end 100-400 range animals which they tack on shipping after the total.. By doing that they just tack on shipping fees for all so they don't have someone emailing/calling and harassing them asking why "you include shipping in the high end animals, why aren't you including it in the lower end ones as well." It would be easier if they just included shipping in the total cost for all animals, but to each their own.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

I probably should stay out of this discussion, but what the heck, it is only a discussion ... a forum to share one's experiences and opinion.

First off, shipping expenses are real and measurable. I charge a flat $75 fee for all shipments, whether it be a $1,000 or $10,000 boa. I have approximately $25 cost in my custom shipping materials and Delta averages around $75-100 for "insured" animals. I always insure my shipments for their full value. This doesn't even account for the scheduling time, packing time, travel to the airport, etc. So it still ends up costing me around a real $25-50 out-of-pocket. If you offer free shipping, do the math ... 100 shipments x $75 is $7,500 ... nothing I am in a position to give away.

Secondly, I have asked other breeders why they offer free shipping? And the most common answer I get is that they do not ... they merely include it in the price of their animal. I am sure other breeders do so in order to gain a competitive edge on sales. Actually, over the years I have found that anyone buying a high-end morph, seldom questions the shipping cost or making an hour drive to the airport to pick it up.

90% profit on selling a snake? I can only dream that my investments and recurring expenses are a mere 10%. If you are planning on getting rich with your 90% profits, maybe you had better reconsider working with higher-end boas. At best you had better get started now versus in the future ... personally, I give the market another 10 years before the "high-end" days are history (you won't find this in the Farmer's Almanac).

By the way, I take no offense to any of this discussion. You just gave me an opportunity to share an opinion (which normally I keep to myself).

And surely you don't believe everything you read or hear ... Hey, buy a pair of Snow boas and I'll include FREE shipping.

Bill Gaines

bill@gainesreptiles.com

gainesreptiles.com

np

Well, that, and plus if you have 10 K to spend on a single snake, a 75 dollar extra on top of it isn't going to make you go bankrupt. 10 grand isn't just some random money you throw around, so to pay for shipping isn't going to be a big deal. Plus with a lot of companies I've dealt with, if they offer free shipping, and it's not already into the cost, they will NOT guarantee their shipment, AND they will get the cheapest and most unsafe shipping package possible, so their cost isn't all that high.

Could you elaborate on the statement:

"I give the market another 10 years before the "high-end" days are history (you won't find this in the Farmer's Almanac)."

Do you mean that you dont think there will be a high end market 10 years from now?

just like with anything else, if the supply is high and the demand does not extrememly surpass the supply, the price drops. forgive me if i am wrong, but it appears that he is saying in about ten years there will be enough people producing the high end boas such as snows, bloods, etc that they will have to bring down their prices significantly in order to compete with each other. this is normaly how supply and demand works. if you have something no one else has then you can charge whatever you want (high end boas). if you have something everyone else has you are more or less competing for having the best price (normal boas).
i cant completely agree that there will be NO high end market but i think the high end market will significantly change. animals with multiple morphs and new found morphs will be the high market because it takes time and money to produce a snake physically displaying multiple genetic mutations. just look at the corn snake market for example. you can find snow corns in petco, that has to tell you something.

I believe it will go past ten years. Come on people.......It takes years to get a female up to size to breed. Then if you’re lucky she may go the third year. There are so many combos to be made that will take many, many years for the end result. Also this is assuming that no more new morphs pop out between then and now. Let's not become like the ball market. Look at their forums it seems every week someone is playing Chicken Little saying the market is going to crash. Here's a little story about me. I bought into the albino boas back in 96-97 I bought 2.2 Albinos 1.2 Hets and I received a free 66% het female in the deal. I raised them up, fairly fast. I did not produce my first litter of albinos until 03 that's six years. Call it what you want. But these are not corn snakes were talking about.

James W. Arnold

Common retort from a Morph Investor,and as always far from the full scope of the topic.
Same applies to the Ball investors.
If your not wrapped up in the hype and way of thinking from that
sector,the view is pretty clear.
This forum isnt even a percentage of the"Big Picture"primarly morph regulated/supported.But there IS a large percentage of the "Big Picture" that will be closer to "Correct" with-in the next ten years.
Remember what they said ten years prior ?

Full Circle Baby !!

M/

I don't see any evidence of the boa world drowning out in the next ten years. Look me up in 2015 and tell me your thoughts then. I'll be around breeding my boas.

Respectively,
James W. Arnold

It doesn't make much difference that it takes a few years for new females to come online and for a new morph to become common. The collapse of the high-end market is not predicated on running out of new morphs, which will probably never happen.

The morph market right now is a classic Ponzi or pyramid scheme. They're pretty snakes, sure, but come on. They aren't worth five figures to anybody. The only reason anybody is willing to pay five figures for a morph is in the hope of making a profit by selling to someone else a few years down the road. The problem is, the road eventually runs out.

Ask the people who invested in Emus in 1980's how well that worked out for them.

Lets say I go out and buy a new co-dom male morph for 20,000 this year. In two years I get lucky and he breeds my normal female, and she has 30 babys and 15 of them are the "morph". The price really really droped on these guys and they are only worth $2,000 now (thats 18k in 2 years) I am still getting $30,000 in sales plus what I can sell the normals for. lets aim way high and say it cost me 5k to care for him and the normal female for 2 years (including her original purchase price 3years ago) I am still up 5k and guess what I can do it all over again next year and even if they only sell for 1k I still make 15k minus $2,500 care costs. I am still up 12.5k the next year. Granted all the money I make will probably go into the next latest and greatest morph, but hey thats what makes this hobby great!!!

Well, you sound like one of those who got taken in some Emu scheme.....

I don't know very many people who would want a $5,000.... (40) pound bird running around their yard, that has to sleep in a horse barn, and most likely will eat you out of house and home!.....And then maybe give you a bunch of eggs, that the local predators are going to fight you for!

Sounds like lack of research...on the part of those who bought in!

.....................

I do however, know alot of people ....some get this....never even liked snakes before, that would like one as a pet, and for some people....not all but some...money is not a real factor.

I know people who have spent $3000. and up!... on a puppy...now I like dogs, but I am not spending $3,000 on a dog! Yet many of the people I know have spent that on them, and then they get it nuetered or spayed besides!.... But I would spend $25,000 on a snake if I had it.....Their is a wide range of people out there who love reptiles....they have been buying them for many many years, and the pet trade continues to flurish!

Imagine seeing an Albino boa in a pet shop for $400 or $500 each....and they are totally healthy besides!!! I know there would be a ton of people waiting in line to buy them...and they would have no intentions of breeding them for a profit!

I think this market will continue to flourish and if and when an animal becomes oversold in a breeder market, the pet trade will become an added market to absorb the overflow....and prices would still be worth breeding them.

Just my .02 cents....

Andy

.

And these are corns that are being double and triple clutched!!!

Was not intended to offend any corn breeders here. I was only implying that corns are easy to breed, and they do double clutch. Far more easier then boas are.

James W. Arnold

1k compared to 10 or 20k that some of the higher end snakes are pulling in is not much. im not saying to me personally because i dont have the money to spend on a 1k albino, as my most expensive snake is a samlon (not supper) female. i was just stating that for an animal to be common enough to be in petco that has two recessive genetic mutations means that the morph has been around a while and the demand has dropped considerably from when it had first been discovered. there will always be expensive animals compared to others.

I agree with Bill. Its a measurable overhead and if you send out a bunch of boxes in a season it gets quite costly. As far as the cornsnake comparison goes I dont think you can really make your case. I spent over $3000.00 on a pair of Opal Motleys last season(the male died a month or two later BTW). That is alot of money for cornsnakes. Rich Zuchowski didnt let me off the hook with the shipping. Why? Because its a business. As far as seeing a snow in petco, you may be a little behind the times when it comes to corns. Snows have been around for a few decades at this point. I'm fairly confident you wont see a Striped Lavender or an Opal Stripe(at least you wont see any of mine there, LOL) at Petco or any other petstore for that matter. The cornsnake market crashes quickly mostly because the snakes reproduce in 18 months and they lay alot of eggs each season pure and simple. You can put a male corn on 10 females and he will get the job done for you. The pair of snakes you just spent $3000 on in 18 mos will pop out $500 babies. Now thats still a worthwhile purchase in my opinion because you still will profit from the purchase but you can see how quickly they "depreciate" if you will. I dont know the boa market real well yet but I know the corns like the back of my hand and you cant compare the two at all. Just my 45 cents. Thanks PS. Sorry about the corn photo, I just had to.

sorry i didnt mean to cause any hard feelings in my post nor was i trying to say that snow corns could be compared to snow boas as far as showing up in petco.
i was just trying to explain that when there is a high demand for something such as a new morph that many people dont have to offer for sale, the price will be high. as more people are able to obtain these animals and reproduce them the prices on that particular morph will go down. thats all i was trying to say with the corn snake reference.

i think things got confused because i also mentioned that i thought the high end market would consist of multiple genetic morphs in the future. this is just my personal opinion. in my eyes there are a great deal of morphs available and the next logical step is to combine them not only to produce animals with new appearances but also to make animals who will have varried morph litters (more money and more fun). dont you think someone would pay alot of money for a snake (male especially)that had so many different genetic moprhs you could breed him to multiple females in many different projects.

oh well i think i have caused more drama off a small of-topic remark then i needed to. sorry if i got anyone upset as that was not my intention in anyway.

No offense, but 2 of those corns cost 3k??? I see no difference between it and an albino motley. Please elaborate on it's genetics. Who cares if it's in the boa forum.
Thank you.

an opal motley is an albino lavender Motley. A triple homozygous snake. They are still very rare in corn collections. You're right though they dont look like much. The photo of the corn I posted is that of a lavender motley. That one snake cost me a thousand dollars. It looks nothing like an albino motley though. They are still somewhat rare in collections but their price has dropped to about $300 per hatchling. thanks
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honesty is my only policy

good answer regarding the math on shipping. I myself always include shipping in my prices. But it does not mean that nobody is paying shipping, essentially my customers pay shipping. It is my job to offer the animals at a competitive price that can offset the price of shipping.

Now as far as the market in ten years.......That comment is quite unclear. I think that from a man that has basically made his name producing some of the most beautiful high dollar morph, the snow boa, it seems odd that he would have such a negative position on the morph market lasting beyond ten years. I disagree.

I believe that many have said that of the dreaded Ball Python market over 15 years ago. I hate comparing the two markets but it is a fact that they are competing.

On a side note during the last year or so there have been many giving up their boa collection for ball morphs......this is a great thing for those keeping boas. The market will generally will bounce, that is its nature.

When money is exchanged from one market to another it leaves a deficit in the market where the money was moved from.

More to come
Bob

I figured this statement might raise some eyebrows. I probably should have kept my mouth shut. But I didn't ... so I will make a couple of follow-up comments.

For 20 years I have dealt with "high-end, high dollar" animals. The problem is that "high-end" has gone way beyond my definition in terms of $$$. Once you go beyond $5,000 per animal, you are in the "high-end, high dollar" market. Not that I won't spend more than $5,000; I have gone considerably more. But to command that price, you had better have something really "special" ... "new & different" only works with a lot of spin. In other words, "mutts" will be short-lived, but "special" will go the full 10 years.

Supply & Demand is, and always will be, the primary factor in setting market price. However, I have observed an interesting trend in recent years ... many, many new and exiting morphs (both ball pythons and boas) have appeared in the marketplace and are competing for big $$$. With so many great choices available today (many are "special", but even more are "hype", the traditional "supply & demand for any given morph" is even somewhat strained by the current availability of so many morphs in the market. Once the market sorts this all out, those who make good choices now will be well rewarded ... maybe beyond 10 years. Hey, even I have an 8-year project in the works.

Gosh, to think this all started with a simple comment on Shipping.

I really want to get high end morphs like snows, and corals but the price obviously prevents that if I'm just planning on keeping them, not breeding.
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1.0 Columbian (BCI)
0.1 Suriname (BCC)
0.1 Longicauda (BCL)
0.1 Bolivian (BCA)

Nobody said anything about the market crashing. I expect it could take the next 10 years for the Snow boas to reach $1,000 each. That's about how long it took for the Albino boas. I am even thinking about working with the Snows for the duration. It is undoubtedly easier to sell 5 $1,000 boas than it is to sell a single $5,000 boa. This ties back to my initial comment of where I think the market is going ... people who make a living at breeding will be working with larger numbers of less expensive animals (prediction, part B). I, myself, will stay a specialized hobbyist and limit the number of "special" projects I have going at any given time in order to maintain a balance between desirable, mid-$$$-range boas and a quality of life.

By the way, the price never prevents anyone from aquiring any given morph they fancy (whether for breeding or for a great collection) ... only the ability to raise the money. I began by "hustling" mice locally to buy $100 kingsnakes (a high-end animal at the time); even had to plead (ok, beg) my wife at the time ... worked my way up to high-end boas, only to re-invest in my next projects (the T-positive Albino Argentines is my next up and coming group). Most of my so-called profits stay in the market. When will it ever end? ... probably NEVER!

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression you said that the boa market would only last ten years. I found that odd. I see now where you were coming from.

Thanks,
James W. Arnold

I think I understand better what you were trying to say now and I agree completely. I think there will still be a high high end boa market(lets say 5-10k plus)ten years from now, but I believe it will be based on new morphs being produced, which seems to be happening every year, and mutiple gene morphs, meaning 4,5, and 6 gene morphs.

Ok I'll take your example. First let me repeat that my comment was regarding free shipping on high-end boas not normals. So we have:

100 x $75 = $7,500 loss if shipped for free

Ok I see that is a lot of money, UNTIL you look at the total money made off those transations:

100 x $4000 = $400,000!!!

So the diffence between offering free shipping is:

$407,500 VS 400,000

I say that's a drop in the bucket. However, this a free country, and everyone should do as they feel fit.
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2.0 Salmon BCI (one is possible het Snow)
0.2 High Pink BCI "normals"
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa

You really need to learn how to sort out all the facts and make decisions based on reality. You conveniently leave out recurring operating expenses such as labor, rodents, cage liners, advertising, website development, and the initial investment, which in the business world is treated as a depreciation expense and cost of capital.

But, perhaps the biggest flaw in your logic is that you assumed someone is selling 100 snakes at $4,000 each ... Lucky Guy, whoever that is.

I'm out of here ... Bill

n/p

As Bill indicated, there is a lot of information that you left out of your analysis. I have purchased several "high-end" boa's over the past few months. When making such a large transaction, it is I who will dictate the shipping terms not the seller.

Take for instance, my dh sunglow male. He was a proven breeder and was in prime condition. I paid a very tidy sum for this male. As part of that transaction, the ONLY way that I was going to purchase him was if the seller used Delta Dash. This allowed my animal to be shipped and to arrive all within a matter of hours (5 to be exact).

If the seller wants to sell the animal then he will meet my terms. I always think twice when seeing someone including free shipping in their ads. I know that either the price is inflated or that the animal could be subject to less than appropriate shipping conditions.

By the same token, if I had informed the seller that UPS second day was fine then it is obviously his responsibility to tell me to take a long walk off of a short pier. Long story short, I am going to select the method of shipping that is the most appropriate for the animal. And, for the sake of the animal, I am willing to pay additional monies in order to ensure that my investment arrives in good fashion/health.

Griz

PS Most breeders are still in a position of selling off 04 stock in addition to their 05 litters. Selling off 100 animals at $4000 a pop is not realistic as the marketplace cannot support or demand such transactions. There are simply too many animals and not enough buyers that can afford to set aside that kind of money.

I just saved $75 with Geico, so now I can offer someone free shipping.

Just kidding, of course. But the main point being made is that you need a sense of humor in order to maintain your sanity when dealing with public and to survive in this business.

Fun discussions and comments.

Till next time ... Bill

bill@gainesreptiles.com

gainesreptiles.com

I can now apply for a refund?
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Nope.

From my experience I've noticed when I post an animal at $745 shipped versus the SAME animal posted at $700 plus $45 shipping there is a marked difference in response. Even though the actual shipped price of the animal for the buyer is the same in each case, I get a much better response when the two costs are itemized separately. Maybe it's just me but this is the trend I've seen.
What I feel is bad practice is when animals are posted at a given price with absolutely no mention anywhere in the ad that shipping is extra. IMHO to advertise an animal at $99 with no mention of shipping charge only to find out after the fact it's actually $99 PLUS a $45 shipping fee is an unfair business practice. That's a HUGE difference and much more worthy of complaining about in my mind. There is a major dealer that currently has over 125 ads running here at Kingsnake that uses this practice. There is virtually NO MENTION of shipping charges in a SINGLE ONE OF THESE ADS. It is only after going to their web site and subsequently clicking on the link to their shipping policy that one realizes the price in the ad is NOT what will actually be paid.
Do you really think the response to these ads would be the same if the true costs were posted up front? So I ask you, which do you think is worse, being up front about the cost of an animal plus shipping, or posting an animal at an artificially low price only to find out after further investigation there is an extra shipping fee added? Am I the only person that has noticed this? I personally think it's a very unfair, deliberate, and deceitful tactic. With literally thousands of ads posted each year by this business there's little doubt in my mind that this is no oversight. It is a deliberate attempt to make their prices appear more competitive, read CHEAPER than everyone else, yet nobody seems to question it.