Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is kind of a response to some of the posts below which I believe was saying that if you want to keep a turtle/tortoise/reptile you should start with the basics and then some.
This sounds good on paper but is not very realistic because it is the keeping of these animals that usually leads to the interest that is generated to the point of intense research and not the other way around.
When a new animal is obtained in the case of experienced herp keepers, they usually follow the course of action the takes the direction of looking for other keepers of the species, literature that deals with first hand experience, natural history and then general info on the specific animal. While theory might help in the understanding of the animal it is going to have little benefit when the animal is usually already in hand which is normally the case.
It is in this situation the short, concise and to the point information is going to have the greatest benefit because that is the info the person usually needs at the time. In most cases if a person tries to apply theory there’s a good chance they are going to kill their animal because first they have to understand the theory and then figure out how to apply it to their situation. On the other hand a short suggestion can be tried and then if it works the person has the option of researching why worked or not.
For those of you who would really like to delve into the ‘basics’ I’d suggest you hunt down the series ‘Biology of the Reptilia’. It consists of 21 volumes and it is still not complete... very dry reading. This also will probably not help you much with that sick boxie you have in hand either.
First hand experience or the accounts of the experiences of others cannot be beat and any good keeper cannot deny this.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You can say it. It's fine. Say I'm countering Ben's post below because I disagree with it. That's dandee, and I'm going to reply so that you might consider a couple more things. Hope that doesn't aggrivate you, because as I've said before, I'm only here to communicate, because I like to.

You say theory. That which I was discussing is not theory. You're pulling that term from another forum, and for these particulars, it's inapplicable. The basics of reptile physiology and how that affects their regulatory behaviors have been understood for decades now. Remember that the first volumes of Biology of the Reptilia were edited and published back in the sixties.

True, many starters get the animal before getting the information. This actually makes it all the more crucial for the keeper to understand basics, instead of piecing together a bunch of detail points. Why? If the keeper encounters difficulty with an animal but has the basics down, that keeper will be able to tweak things with little other than applied common sense. If nothing other than concise specifics are had, well, the specifics failed and the keeper wonders, now what? No basics = no foundation for an alternate route. So, that's big trouble the first time a specific application doesn't work. All details and no basics make for dismay. All details and no basics make Jack a dull boy.

Want an example? Okay. Promise, I'm not picking on you, but, since I'm responding to your post here, I'll pull from one of your posts down there. A couple days back, a person wrote that he/she was wanting to purchase a couple of baby box turtles - eastern or three-toed, for maintenance indoors in Utah. Adult or captive-bred babies, the person asked. Which subspecies, the person asked. You suggested three-toed because they would do well outside in Utah. You claimed that they can develop beautiful red skin with age. These are misguided concise remarks. As I have said, the majority of detail points are mistaken, or at least, inapplicable.

All but the most resilient three-toeds would do poorly outdoors in most of Utah. Very dry, very hot, very prone to large drops in temp at night. None of those work well for three-toeds, especially babies. Further, some three-toeds do develop a lot of color, but, most do not. Most are brown with at best a little yellow, orange or red on the lips. Especially the females. Easterns are more consistently "colorful," and across the sexes at that.

Now, as to why basics help captive applications. By this I don't mean, I'm right, you're wrong, but rather, why my approach to the same problem (question) was more direct, and more applicable to the situation. Captive-bred box turtles have a better track record for adjusting to captivity since they're adjusting to life instead of readjusting to it, as wild-caught adults have to. Make sense? The turtles were intended as indoor pets, so, I suggested, get the babies. Either subspecies will do fine, since either subspecies can thrive in a proper setup indoors, which I emphasized the important points for - substrate, cover, humidity - the three interrelated crucial aspects for baby box turtle setups. Those are the crucial aspects because those aspects are what the animals' basic functions demand. Small setup size makes those apsects easier to maintain, so I suggested that, too. See? Basics on physiology, consequent behavior, and a hint towards what those factors mean towards captive maintenance. I'm still beating the same drum.

Again, please bear in mind, I'm not saying I'm better at discussing than you. I am saying that a basics approach is often, believe it or not, less confusing. What makes these posts of mine so confusing for some of you is, I'm not suggesting this route to first-time keepers (for the most part) but rather, to some who think that the details of their experiences can serve as proven guidelines for people anywhere, everywhere. That makes for more complicated discussion. It's hard to convince some of you to simply consider that the "details" approach might not be the best way, especially since your recommendations come unwaverinly, since you already "know" your individual animals. You just forget to think, I don't know his or her individual animals, living in his or her setups. That makes a huge difference and can send the personal experience that people like you and Stephanie have out the window insofar as applicability for other's setups. See? Yes, you have experience. No, it won't float for everyone. Let each keeper know the basics and then independently fill in the details, the specifics, make everything concise, since after all they're those keeper's individual animals.

Don't read Biology of the Reptilia. Most volumes are hard to find and they are certainly not about the basics. They're about the cumulative. The physiology and behavior chapters in the simpler Herpetology texts are concise versions of the same (I thought you liked concise writing), printed in a fashion more accessible to most readers. Biology of the Reptilia is best left for those that have specific questions (namely of a research nature) about specific aspects of any of that subject matter. The guys below are concise details, you know, individual exceptions. Wish they applied to all individuals, like the basics do. Thanks for the exchange.

>>You can say it. It's fine. Say I'm countering Ben's post below because I disagree with it. That's dandee, and I'm going to reply so that you might consider a couple more things. Hope that doesn't aggrivate you, because as I've said before, I'm only here to communicate, because I like to.

No aggrivation here. It's kind of amusing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see I was responding to your post.

>>
>>You say theory. That which I was discussing is not theory. You're pulling that term from another forum, and for these particulars, it's inapplicable. The basics of reptile physiology and how that affects their regulatory behaviors have been understood for decades now. Remember that the first volumes of Biology of the Reptilia were edited and published back in the sixties.

This is why it is diffucult to respond to your posts. You are all over the place.

A Theory is a thought that has not been proven using the scientific method... of course. Their behavior might be understood but it is still theory until proven as fact.

Your understanding of the turtles' regulatory behavior seems to leave some thought to be desired.

I guess with modern technology the biology of reptiles have changed over the last 40 years. I believe vol 19 was published last year or there about. I really don't understand you point there.

>>
>>True, many starters get the animal before getting the information. This actually makes it all the more crucial for the keeper to understand basics, instead of piecing together a bunch of detail points. Why? If the keeper encounters difficulty with an animal but has the basics down, that keeper will be able to tweak things with little other than applied common sense. If nothing other than concise specifics are had, well, the specifics failed and the keeper wonders, now what? No basics = no foundation for an alternate route. So, that's big trouble the first time a specific application doesn't work. All details and no basics make for dismay. All details and no basics make Jack a dull boy.>>

I don't understand your point here. These forums are usually a starting point for many folks and they probably have note tried some of the advice/suggestions that is offered.

>>Want an example? Okay. Promise, I'm not picking on you, but, since I'm responding to your post here, I'll pull from one of your posts down there. A couple days back, a person wrote that he/she was wanting to purchase a couple of baby box turtles - eastern or three-toed, for maintenance indoors in Utah. Adult or captive-bred babies, the person asked. Which subspecies, the person asked. You suggested three-toed because they would do well outside in Utah. You claimed that they can develop beautiful red skin with age. These are misguided concise remarks. As I have said, the majority of detail points are mistaken, or at least, inapplicable.
>>

You need to read my posts and not try to take points out of context. I said there are some nice looking 3 toeds that come out of the Houston area that have this blood red skin color. I never said anything about development...

Three toeds are definately easier than Easterns.

>>All but the most resilient three-toeds would do poorly outdoors in most of Utah. Very dry, very hot, very prone to large drops in temp at night. None of those work well for three-toeds, especially babies. Further, some three-toeds do develop a lot of color, but, most do not. Most are brown with at best a little yellow, orange or red on the lips. Especially the females. Easterns are more consistently "colorful," and across the sexes at that.
>>

Ok, back to the basics...

>>Now, as to why basics help captive applications. By this I don't mean, I'm right, you're wrong, but rather, why my approach to the same problem (question) was more direct, and more applicable to the situation. Captive-bred box turtles have a better track record for adjusting to captivity since they're adjusting to life instead of readjusting to it, as wild-caught adults have to. Make sense? The turtles were intended as indoor pets, so, I suggested, get the babies. Either subspecies will do fine, since either subspecies can thrive in a proper setup indoors, which I emphasized the important points for - substrate, cover, humidity - the three interrelated crucial aspects for baby box turtle setups. Those are the crucial aspects because those aspects are what the animals' basic functions demand. Small setup size makes those apsects easier to maintain, so I suggested that, too. See? Basics on physiology, consequent behavior, and a hint towards what those factors mean towards captive maintenance. I'm still beating the same drum.
>>

Keep beating, dude... you are definately marching to a different drummer. (sorry, I didn't know how else to respond to that last part.)

>>Again, please bear in mind, I'm not saying I'm better at discussing than you. I am saying that a basics approach is often, believe it or not, less confusing. What makes these posts of mine so confusing for some of you is, I'm not suggesting this route to first-time keepers (for the most part) but rather, to some who think that the details of their experiences can serve as proven guidelines for people anywhere, everywhere. That makes for more complicated discussion. It's hard to convince some of you to simply consider that the "details" approach might not be the best way, especially since your recommendations come unwaverinly, since you already "know" your individual animals. You just forget to think, I don't know his or her individual animals, living in his or her setups. That makes a huge difference and can send the personal experience that people like you and Stephanie have out the window insofar as applicability for other's setups. See? Yes, you have experience. No, it won't float for everyone. Let each keeper know the basics and then independently fill in the details, the specifics, make everything concise, since after all they're those keeper's individual animals.
>>

I kinda see your point... maybe... sorta...

>>Don't read Biology of the Reptilia. Most volumes are hard to find and they are certainly not about the basics. They're about the cumulative. The physiology and behavior chapters in the simpler Herpetology texts are concise versions of the same (I thought you liked concise writing), printed in a fashion more accessible to most readers. Biology of the Reptilia is best left for those that have specific questions (namely of a research nature) about specific aspects of any of that subject matter. The guys below are concise details, you know, individual exceptions. Wish they applied to all individuals, like the basics do. Thanks for the exchange.
>>

I do like concise writing. I also like facts with well thought out oppinions that offer support.

Ben, thanks for the exercise.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

About that part that confused you, I'll simplify. Basics vs. given specifics for a new keeper, pros and cons.

Basics means having an overall understanding about how and why reptiles work the way they do. It leaves the keeper encouragement for changing things when necessary because the applications are loose.

Specific details can hit right home. They are simple, spelled out. However, they don't always hold true, and that's not good for specific applications. When a new keeper has a concrete list of foods, temperature, substrate, etc., and something goes wrong, he or she has no foundation from which to re-route the current approach. The keeper merely has "factual" information that doesn't work. Confusion ensues. That's the frequent problem with details.

Of course, everything has its pitfalls, and with basics, the approach has to be dictated by making applications with common sense. Many minds want detail rules to apply, for everything to be the same for every animal. A flawless recipe. For people like this who will not consider or be able to change that rigorous way of thinking, a basics approach will not work.

It is noteworthy, any alternate route (i.e., basics instead of details) will work much better for some people. In this case, some will never mean all. Some people have to figure precise (detail) is better than loose (basic). So, details will always be in demand from forums, care guides and websites, etc. And I guess keepers will resultantly always have differences, hey? That's just diversity.

I know that I've certainly benefited from information shared by experienced keepers, because lets face it, there are information gaps in even the best box turtle specific texts.
I'd read the literature prior to acquiring mine, and still found that there's nothing like hands-on experience to help fill those gaps when it comes to captive care.
Regrettably, there will always be people out there who will acquire a turtle on impulse, never bother to educate themselves enough to properly care for it, and quite simply dispose of it when they get bored, or it gets sick.
Ironically, lengthy posts about what turtles do in nature just aren't enough, especially when they contain contradictory statements and, in some instances, just plain erroneous information.
Regards,
Stephanie