Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone. I'm "old" to kingsnake, but new to this forum.
I have 2 hatchling Easterns (2-3 months old) being shipped to me tomorrow. I set up the following habitat today: a 40 gallon Sterlite (17"x26" with cocoa fiber mixed w/ orchid bark, patches of green moss, 2 cork bark hides, water dish for soaking. I have a UV heat bulb on order. I've read the online box turtle care book (www.boxturtlesite.org/bxbook.html)as well as the Box Turtle Manual.
Am I missing anything?
I'm quite excited for their arrival & am happy to be joining this friendly & helpful forum. Robin
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Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

If you can, cancel the order on the UV heat bulb. I know, shocking to many. Baby box turtles (baby most turtles) can and will grow indoors without them, so long as proper nutrition is provided. UV tubes for reptiles can fry baby turtles, especially baby turtles that spend most of their time concealed (like yours will). Go with a fifty or seventy-five watt house bulb on one end of the tub, since it's a big tub. If you're one of those wierdos who likes a freezing house (grin), up the bulb wattage some more.

The only other thing - take the water bowl out. Since baby box turtles dehydrate very efficiently, you need to make sure they stay hydrated. Here, manipulation becomes important. Soak them in front of you every day or two. That way, you know who's getting what. You will also likely be able to see who is defecating, since the water is the best place for that if you're a box turtle.

(Is this not just slightly hypocritical of you?)

>>If you can, cancel the order on the UV heat bulb. I know, shocking to many. Baby box turtles (baby most turtles) can and will grow indoors without them, so long as proper nutrition is provided. UV tubes for reptiles can fry baby turtles, especially baby turtles that spend most of their time concealed (like yours will). Go with a fifty or seventy-five watt house bulb on one end of the tub, since it's a big tub. If you're one of those wierdos who likes a freezing house (grin), up the bulb wattage some more.
>>
>>The only other thing - take the water bowl out. Since baby box turtles dehydrate very efficiently, you need to make sure they stay hydrated. Here, manipulation becomes important. Soak them in front of you every day or two. That way, you know who's getting what. You will also likely be able to see who is defecating, since the water is the best place for that if you're a box turtle.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Now I'm really confused. All my research shows UV is particularly important for these guys. I've done my research & found a bulb that provides UV & heat (because the books & the forum tell me to provide heat from above, not below. So I am, despite my built-in UTH going unused in this setup) I've tested the UV tube already installed in the area of the cage & found it's no longer putting out UV, so I ordered a bulb that people say will put it out for years, rather than the 6 month life of tubes.
I know my life (& my local winter weather) & know I can't rely on getting them outside for several hours a week of natural light.
I'm also a bit confused about the water dish advice...
What does everyone think?
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Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

Hi there,
I already e-mailed you off-list, but I'll post here too.
In short, UV is necessary. I don't know what brand bulb you've ordered, but you're probably already aware that they put out a significant amount of heat, so make sure the warmest end of the setup is about 85 degrees (90 tops). Hatchlings can be somewhat erratic eaters, so attempting to provide vit.D3 via diet alone can lead to disastrous results.
Keep the water dish. Just make sure you put the hatchlings in water each day as 'insurance'. Having the dish in there will allow them to use it at will, and can also passively help maintain humidity in the setup.
As I stated in the e-mail, you should also enhance the moisture retentive qualities if the substrate (I use peat moss). That too will help keep the hatchlings from dehydrating.

There is not alot of information available on captive care of hatchlings, and since there is no significant amount of information available on wild hatchlings, this is one area where the advice of longtime keepers can be of enormous value.
Hope that helps.
Stephanie

It does help, thank you. While I have a good amount of herp experience, this is my first baby box turtle (my family kept a WC adult for many years back in the 70s & 80s) & I greatly appreciate the help, encouragement & support of long-term & experienced keepers.

I ordered a Zoomed Powersun 100w UV bulb. I know that at this wattage I'll need a good distance between the bulb & the babies, but it was the lowest wattage there was. I ordered this particular one because the online book I cited above said it continues to put out UV for years, rather than the 6 months common in tubes.

The humidity in the enclosure now (with the lid on, which will change a bit when I add screening) is 80%. I'm able to maintain my crested gecko enclosures at 60% with much less substrate & much smaller water dishes, with just a daily misting. But I will seek out some peat to add to this enclosure as well.

Thanks! Keep the help coming! Robin
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Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

Another question, I bought a cuttle bone to help w/ beak trimming & provide calcium. But the one I got is pineapple flavored & contains Calcium 16%, Phosphorous 0.015% & salt 0.3% Is this good, or should I just go w/ a "typical" cuttlebone? I got this one because it's the only one this particular store had & I thought the babies might like the pineapple flavor...
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Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

If you offer food on a flat stone or unglazed tile, the turtles will gently have their beaks filed as they eat. I tried the cuttle bone for a while and never had a turtle show an interest in it, so I'm sort of ambivalent about using it. I would think that the plain unadulterated cuttlebone would be best, though, and not something with additives.
Stephanie

I've never been able to get a turtle to look at a cuttle bone either. I feed mine their salad type meals on a flat paver brick that I bought for 50 cents at Lowe's.
I get calcium into them by dusting their live bugs.
Congrats on the new babies that are on the way
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PHRatz

i would agree that plain cuttlebone seems like the best choice. two easterns i have completely ignored it for the first year of life, then suddenly decided it was something good to eat. throwing a piece into the enclosure won't do much harm.

Stephanie, you claim UV bulbs are a necessity for indoor baby box turtles. How many box turtles have you tried and failed to raise without them, indoors? Provided you failed, were all the necessities (besides that of the supposed bulbs) met?

You state we know little about baby box turtles in their natural environments. This is because they’re so darn good at avoiding our eyes, which scan the top of the leaves. They find everything they need under the leaf litter. Shelter, humidity, food, likely in that order of significance to their survival. Why would a sub-stratorial critter necessitate UV? Leopard geckoes don’t. Snakes don’t. Monitors don’t. Even crocodilians don’t. Why not? They come into the light just like baby box turtles, far more frequently in the case of the latter three groups.

The answer is, because enough people have proven that they don’t require UV. Okay, that’s not really an explanation, but it’s a proof. Close enough. Thing is, all of the true necessities have become recognized, understood, and addressed by successful breeders of those species. With many turtle keepers, they’re still arguing over whether UV is actually a necessity or not. All the while, (indoor) turtle breeders have proven UV bulbs not to be a necessity. You’re arguing a supposition against a given.

I agree that UV seems very beneficial to most reptiles. That is, from the sun, as that has been proved by the perpetuated existence of these critters on earth. UV bulbs haven’t been around quite as long, and haven’t been quantitatively or qualitatively tested.

You might offer some references to support your claim that it is not necessary. I don't believe it is necessary either but that is my opinion. I have no concrete evidence or reference to any long term studies to support this theory... all I have is my experience.

In your below statement you also seem to offer support that it is necessary(?).

>>Stephanie, you claim UV bulbs are a necessity for indoor baby box turtles. How many box turtles have you tried and failed to raise without them, indoors? Provided you failed, were all the necessities (besides that of the supposed bulbs) met?
>>
>>You state we know little about baby box turtles in their natural environments. This is because they’re so darn good at avoiding our eyes, which scan the top of the leaves. They find everything they need under the leaf litter. Shelter, humidity, food, likely in that order of significance to their survival. Why would a sub-stratorial critter necessitate UV? Leopard geckoes don’t. Snakes don’t. Monitors don’t. Even crocodilians don’t. Why not? They come into the light just like baby box turtles, far more frequently in the case of the latter three groups.
>>
>>The answer is, because enough people have proven that they don’t require UV. Okay, that’s not really an explanation, but it’s a proof. Close enough. Thing is, all of the true necessities have become recognized, understood, and addressed by successful breeders of those species. With many turtle keepers, they’re still arguing over whether UV is actually a necessity or not. All the while, (indoor) turtle breeders have proven UV bulbs not to be a necessity. You’re arguing a supposition against a given.
>>
>>I agree that UV seems very beneficial to most reptiles. That is, from the sun, as that has been proved by the perpetuated existence of these critters on earth. UV bulbs haven’t been around quite as long, and haven’t been quantitatively or qualitatively tested.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

We must both have the day off, as now we're taking the time to argue nuances, heh.

There has been proof of success without UV supplementation in both commercial and individual cases for all the critters I mentioned.

With crocodilians, the youngsters are raised in covered pools; maintainable pools would quickly overheat if they were accessible to sunlight. Come to my current state of residence if you wish to see some. This example is a commercial setting.

With the monitors, they are usually raised indoors, at least those that hatch in the cold months. These are individual settings, and are far fewer in number than those dealing with crocodilians due to other variables in keeping monitors.

With constrictors (both colubrid and boid) and leopard geckoes, there are simply hundreds upon hundreds of people who breed them, without UV supplementation. Hey, people do it with bearded dragons, blue-tongued skinks, chameleons, so on and so forth.

With regards to turtles, many individuals who raise some of their hatchlings indoors do not use UV bulbs. They're just not practical since proper diet plus proper environment to facilitate behavior that results in proper metabolism will result in a positive outcome, without UV bulbs.

The well-aged "commercial-style" batagurid headstarting programs in Malaysia and Thailand use covered pools just as do crocodile farms. Large indoor turtle "factories" in China receive little light of any kind. Admittedly, all of these are examples, and not definitions, as to why baby box turtles don't necessitate UV bulbs when inside.

However, multiple individuals who breed and raise box turtles and other turtles, to reiterate, do not use such overpriced hardware, and raise and even sell plenty of healthy hatchlings.

UV bulbs serve the detail approach we've been bantering about. We assume they work, or assume they're necessary, so we emphasize their use. Why not strive for the easier route (not use them) and honestly evaluate whether or not they're necessary based on results instead of suppositions? Some of us have already done that, and have seen futility in bulb investment.

Do remember, all of this is considering hatchlings, since they merely have to grow into captive life instead of adjust to it as wild-caught adults have to. I do believe that it is generally easier for hatchlings to do without UV than it is for wild-caught adults to do so. Why? Although UV isn't necessary for captive turtles, for basking-oriented species, UV rays do seem to spurn certain metabolic processes further. Skin tone, external parasite reduction, and other functions that are too detailed for my understandings to consider here, may be influenced. Meaning, it seems safe to assume that UV can be beneficial. All of a sudden going without it would = a change for wild-caught animals, in addition to all the other changes captive life would beget. Beneficial seems to be the case, which is part of the reason why me, and you, and anyone else with one or more animals, likes to turn them outside at first chance when the weather permits. Such an action begets simplicity that is proven.

People can do a lot of things, but we can't yet ape the sun for turtles and prove it necessary. So, why complicate things by trying since raising them without UV works fine? Your opinion here might streatch farther than you know - look at it emphasizing the basic.

There's no argument here. I'm simply suggesting that most chelonian keepers admittedly don't 'know' if UV is a necessity or not but it might provide a benefit.

Take it or leave it... isn't that what you said?

>>We must both have the day off, as now we're taking the time to argue nuances, heh.
>>
>>There has been proof of success without UV supplementation in both commercial and individual cases for all the critters I mentioned.
>>
>>With crocodilians, the youngsters are raised in covered pools; maintainable pools would quickly overheat if they were accessible to sunlight. Come to my current state of residence if you wish to see some. This example is a commercial setting.
>>
>>With the monitors, they are usually raised indoors, at least those that hatch in the cold months. These are individual settings, and are far fewer in number than those dealing with crocodilians due to other variables in keeping monitors.
>>
>>With constrictors (both colubrid and boid) and leopard geckoes, there are simply hundreds upon hundreds of people who breed them, without UV supplementation. Hey, people do it with bearded dragons, blue-tongued skinks, chameleons, so on and so forth.
>>
>>With regards to turtles, many individuals who raise some of their hatchlings indoors do not use UV bulbs. They're just not practical since proper diet plus proper environment to facilitate behavior that results in proper metabolism will result in a positive outcome, without UV bulbs.
>>
>>The well-aged "commercial-style" batagurid headstarting programs in Malaysia and Thailand use covered pools just as do crocodile farms. Large indoor turtle "factories" in China receive little light of any kind. Admittedly, all of these are examples, and not definitions, as to why baby box turtles don't necessitate UV bulbs when inside.
>>
>>However, multiple individuals who breed and raise box turtles and other turtles, to reiterate, do not use such overpriced hardware, and raise and even sell plenty of healthy hatchlings.
>>
>>UV bulbs serve the detail approach we've been bantering about. We assume they work, or assume they're necessary, so we emphasize their use. Why not strive for the easier route (not use them) and honestly evaluate whether or not they're necessary based on results instead of suppositions? Some of us have already done that, and have seen futility in bulb investment.
>>
>>Do remember, all of this is considering hatchlings, since they merely have to grow into captive life instead of adjust to it as wild-caught adults have to. I do believe that it is generally easier for hatchlings to do without UV than it is for wild-caught adults to do so. Why? Although UV isn't necessary for captive turtles, for basking-oriented species, UV rays do seem to spurn certain metabolic processes further. Skin tone, external parasite reduction, and other functions that are too detailed for my understandings to consider here, may be influenced. Meaning, it seems safe to assume that UV can be beneficial. All of a sudden going without it would = a change for wild-caught animals, in addition to all the other changes captive life would beget. Beneficial seems to be the case, which is part of the reason why me, and you, and anyone else with one or more animals, likes to turn them outside at first chance when the weather permits. Such an action begets simplicity that is proven.
>>
>>People can do a lot of things, but we can't yet ape the sun for turtles and prove it necessary. So, why complicate things by trying since raising them without UV works fine? Your opinion here might streatch farther than you know - look at it emphasizing the basic.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I'd address you by name but you've refused to indentify yourself.

In fact, I have had a negative expeirence with hatchlings not having adequate UV exposure. Not sufficient a quantity to constitute scientific proof, perhaps, but in my situation, it was warning enough. last years hatchlings were provided withe identical well rounded diets, and all other conditions were also identical. One clutch, that was not under lights had growth problems Other clutches that WERE under lights were growing normally.
"Proof" that UV is necessary? Maybe not, but then again neither is the anecdotal 'evidence' that you've advanced.

"You state we know little about baby box turtles in their natural environments. This is because they’re so darn good at avoiding our eyes, which scan the top of the leaves. They find everything they need under the leaf litter. Shelter, humidity, food, likely in that order of significance to their survival. Why would a sub-stratorial critter necessitate UV? Leopard geckoes don’t. Snakes don’t. Monitors don’t. Even crocodilians don’t. Why not? They come into the light just like baby box turtles, far more frequently in the case of the latter three groups."

Ed was right: it is very difficult to respond to your posts because you truly are all over the map. You are apparently in agreement with the statement that little is known about the habits of hatchling box turtles, but then you continue on, professing to know about the habits of baby box turtles. Really quite contradictory.
It is NOT a known fact that they are 'sub-stratorial', but rather it is merely a presumption. You're not following your own advice to 'think like a turtle' Shame on you.
Its quite likely that a majority of hatchlings spend a significant part of their first weeks or even months in much more open habitat than you presume, as this is where female turtles tend to dig their nests. If and when they do eventually seek the heavier cover of the leaf litter, there is no concrete evidence that they don't regularly expose themselves to daylight. So, since UV rays 'bounce around' much more than the rest of the visible spectrum, these tiny creatures are in all likelihood getting alot more sun exposure than you would like to believe. I have also closely observed the behavior of hatchlings, and have reason to believe that they are indeed much less 'sub-stratorial' than many of you suppose.

"The answer is, because enough people have proven that they don’t require UV. Okay, that’s not really an explanation, but it’s a proof. Close enough. Thing is, all of the true necessities have become recognized, understood, and addressed by successful breeders of those species. With many turtle keepers, they’re still arguing over whether UV is actually a necessity or not. All the while, (indoor) turtle breeders have proven UV bulbs not to be a necessity. You’re arguing a supposition against a given."

As stated previously, I really disagree with your assertion that what can really only be considered anecdotal evidence constitutes 'proof'. I think you're the one who is arguing a supposition against a given. Can you cite any real scientific studies to support your supposition? You are very reluctant to share any hard facts.
Many of these large scale breeders aren't hanging on to their stock for any length of time, so I doubt that anyone can provide empirical evidence that turtles housed without UV never have any health problems.
I suspect that many of the people who 'successfully' raise turtles without UV are in fact rather heavily supplementing their diets in order to compensate, in effect trading one vitamin source for a less expensive one.
And, while studies have shown that it is not possible to O.D. on D3 gained by sun exposure, it is possible to O.D. on D3 provided via dietary supplementation.
So, since it is not known PRECISELY how much of any given nutrient, vitamin or mineral a box turtle needs, let alone with what frequency, please tell me how you can possibly determine how much D3 is enough when you're 'fortifying' the diet?
As you might say, "Get it?"
"I agree that UV seems very beneficial to most reptiles. That is, from the sun, as that has been proved by the perpetuated existence of these critters on earth. UV bulbs haven’t been around quite as long, and haven’t been quantitatively or qualitatively tested."

None has even begun to delve into questions of how UV affects other aspects of a turtle's health and well being.
So how can anyone begin to distinguish between what is necessary and what is merely beneficial.

Stephanie

Typing is not a skill I've mastered, and I'm getting a little too long in the tooth to expect much improvement.
Stephanie

Understanding what I'm getting at, that's proving a problem. I'll try to further clarify for you. By the way, you can address me by my given name if it makes you feel more cozy. I’ve actually posted it a couple of times in recent history. It’s Ben. Aah, I feel less tension between us already.

Knowing about baby box turtle behaviors in the wild. We don't know about average daily routines because they're hard to observe. Just because we're not good at observing baby box turtles with regularity doesn't mean we don't know where they are. No contradiction there. You would have to seemingly suggest (for another disparate example) that we don't know anything about the microhabitat requirements and uses of most plethodontid salamanders, simply because most species spend the better part of their time under cover. We know where they are and why they’re there. But, what do they do there? That’s the largely unanswered part. Still, no contradiction.

Also, microhabitat is an important thing to consider. Most box turtles east of the Great Plains prefer wooded or edge-effect habitats. In both of these settings, cover vs. absence of cover is relative. What seems open to you is a maze of giant grasses, forbs and litter to baby turtles. They see from the ground up, you see from 5 or 6' down. Big difference in perception. I'm still thinking like a reptile. Are you?

Do understand, physiologically, even if we did not know for certain where most baby box turtles spend the bulk of their time (which is indeed in concealment, like most metabolically low-end terrestrial reptiles), we could reason that they cannot spend any significant durations in direct exposure – they are so small and prone to dehydration that they would desiccate rapidly. Remember the Reynold’s number bit about heating. The smaller you are, the less it favors you. We can see from wild baby box turtles (yes, I actually have, albeit statistically limited in numbers) and captive baby box turtles alike that they are less heliothermic (sun-using) and more thermoconformic (subscribe to often-lower microhabitat temps). Adults, being more mobile, larger, and thus less prone to predation and dehydration, are comparatively opposite. Babies grow efficiently at lower temps than the adults can mak efficient use of and this is because the adults have more of a need for augmenting average intermediate temperatures with warming (basking).

I am not insinuating that baby box turtles live underground or that they don’t naturally receive UV rays. The comparisons I made have proved those species which naturally utilize the sun (via their natural behaviors) far more than baby box turtles can do fine without UV bulbs when maintained as captives indoors. I was not citing commercial (large scale) breeders in particular with regards to baby box turtles. Actually, few of those, if any, deal with box turtles for any duration.

Here, there is some use in comparing one detail supported by the achievements of breeders – UV bulbs don’t seem necessary. That detail is useful to disprove the detail you are pushing, that they are necessary. So here, I am not pushing academic investigation, but rather, what breeders have shown. I apologize that I don't give names, but as we all know that many keepers of financially significant species are troubled by potential theft. You’ll just have to either take my word on the proof, or believe that none of all those turtle hatchlings offered on ks are produced by people who do not use UV bulbs. The first way actually sounds more realistic to me.

You said it yourself; you have no true proof in support of your UV bulb favor, past the point that it helps you sleep at night. Having a less positive experience in raising one small group of cohorts is not significant enough to base such a strong recommendation upon.

It seems as though many of the growth and deficiency problems cited by keepers are due to, as I mentioned in a previous post, a misidentification of causative factors and misapplication of multiple parts of captivity, not vitamins or UV bulbs alone.

Also a point of import – UV bulbs do help in the assimilation of VD3. Since most supplements are laced with the same, you would have to do away with such supplements if you wanted to safeguard against D3 overdose in animals maintained under a UV bulb. If you use prepared food that is already fortified, you would have to abort that diet. Is manmade sunlight really that important? So much so as to compromise the nutrition that we do know to be of necessity, to ensure safety for the use of a tool that is not a necessity?

Funny how these long threads often spin off of one remark that is perceived as contradictory by people who have not tried it both ways. You can use UV bulbs. You do use them. You’ve raised babies that way. You have proven that your animals CAN function under UV bulbs. At the same time, myself and others have proven that at least the turtles we raise can and do function without UV bulbs. So we see that the bulbs do not prove necessary. Natural UV rays, again, potentially beneficial. But, they’re not necessary, natural or artificial. We know this because we’ve tried it without them and succeeded without them. Sorry, but it is that basic.

....you have no actual proof, only hearsay and anecdotes. No studies, no publications, no peer review. No proof at all.
Just the assertions of (unnamed) individuals who are motivated by profit, and/or have never truly evaluated the longterm effects of this dietary supplementation. Have you collected any hard data on, say, bone density? No, of course not.

You won't say how much dietary D3 is necessary to compensate for lack of UV because you don't know. So, in fact, your statement that UV is not necessary is based on the very tenuous assertion that you've witnessed no ill effects and that 'the other guys do it'. The very sort of argument that you consider to be so flawed when used by myself and others to bolster our view that UV IS necessary, conveniently ignoring over course, that the pro-UV argument has already been proven. By Mother Nature.

Have you conducted any longterm controlled studies? No.
But you'll tell people on this forum, who are seeking advice, that UV isn't necessary, without furnishing them with further details outlining how to compensate (beyond, of course, the vague suggestion that
the turtles' dietary and environmental needs fully be met) You encourage them instead to think like a reptile. You don't provide specifics because you don't know. How many IU's per Kg of bodyweight, and with what frequency? You don't know.

You just go round and round and round. Unfortunately your posts are more ego-driven than informational.

In the meantime you're also telling people to 'think like a reptile', which is exactly what we are doing when we opt to provide UV. Reptiles utilize sunlight, not supplements. So, here again, you're not following your own advice.

So many inconsistencies....and still no persuasive argument.

"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN"

You share pretty strong sensations against what you suppose my character to be. Let's stick to the forum topics.

You did say a few days back, that keepers sharing info is aces, best way to learn. You agreed with another on that. Remember?

Okay, that I and others have succeeded with multiple emydid species, not just box turtles, without UV even before UV bulbs were widely available, should allow you to learn something.

It's not my job to test UV bulbs for effectiveness or lack thereof. Myself and others have already proven them not to be necessary (within the limits of the species with which we've worked), so effective or not has no application for me.

It should be up to the companies you pay for the bulbs to "scientifically prove" their effectiveness. But, when you and others subscribe to their use without demanding rigorous proof, the manufacturers will happily skip that step. It's much quicker to create positive marketing than to ensure positive test returns.

I would think that you would be the one wanting to conduct a study of how well they work, since your animals are the ones affected by the bulbs. Why would I want to since I know I don’t have to use them?

I and others say, look, we did it without those, and did it well; do we get a sticker for that? Allowing yourself to learn anything yet?

It seems as though many keepers who use UV bulbs feed their captives a prepared diet, at least in part. Those are fortified. Also frequently used, with or without bulbs, is calcium powder. That is fortified. That either of those D3-fortified items don’t cause hypervitaminosis in the presence of UV bulbs should tell us that these critters have a pretty positive margin for error between the minimum D3 required and the maximum D3 tolerable. No need for inventing hair-splitting zones.

I still think I could teach you how to better think like a reptile if you'd be more open to my words. Start by imagining physique. Imagine yourself with a baby box turtle tail, living with five of your siblings. You guys are competitive. But, you have an owner who doesn't consider reptile behavior past the pre-conceived mold he/she wants it to fit and, consequently in the limits provided, your tail is bitten down. Then your stubby self has to laugh when your owner tells another owner not to separate two siblings that could be similarly competing.

End lesson one. I guess if you didn't learn anything, you'd better tell EJ he was wrong, grin.

I do have to agree to some extent with the above post about the necessity of UV. I don't believe it is a necessity but I do believe that there is a good chance that there are benefits. Only recently have researchers looked into the necessity of UV in chelonians. I always recommend the use of UV bulbs but I also think the turtle will do just fine with out it. The big concern is the heat. I found that adult boxies do not seem to like it hot but I don't know about the babies. I'm hoping I get a chance to play around with some one of these days.

On the water... Always provide water and the additional soaking can't hurt.

Boxies do not seem to go for raw cuttlebone as a general rule but, again, it can't hurt to keep a little sliver in the enclosure. Also, whenever you add anything try to keep it as natural and pure as possible in most cases.

One other note. On the UV bulbs (mercury vapor type) they can last for many years. I've got some going on 6 years and they are putting out the equivalent UV of a brand new tube type bulb. I've also had them last one week or less. The quality is highly variable.

>>Now I'm really confused. All my research shows UV is particularly important for these guys. I've done my research & found a bulb that provides UV & heat (because the books & the forum tell me to provide heat from above, not below. So I am, despite my built-in UTH going unused in this setup) I've tested the UV tube already installed in the area of the cage & found it's no longer putting out UV, so I ordered a bulb that people say will put it out for years, rather than the 6 month life of tubes.
>>I know my life (& my local winter weather) & know I can't rely on getting them outside for several hours a week of natural light.
>>I'm also a bit confused about the water dish advice...
>>What does everyone think?
>>-----
>>Robins Critters
>>1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
>>1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
>>0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
>>1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
>>0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
>>1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
>>0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
>>0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
>>0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
>>1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
>>1.1 Cats Gus & Mena
>>
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thanks.
I've decided to cancel the vapor bulb on order & place the turtle enclosure w/in a free section of my larger (4'x2') enclosure (where they'll be as adults). This way they can utelize the 48" UV tube that runs the length of that enclosure & I can supply less intense heat with a standard bulb clamped to the edge.
I've ordered new UV tubes from Big Apple (they're on a great sale this week) & ordered 2, so I can replace when they stop providing UV.

-----
Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

That is a unique idea on the bulb. I like it. It gives the animal a choice of how close it needs or would 'like' to get to the source.

I have one question... what is seperating the bulb from physical contact with the animals? I think it would filter out any beneficial UV if it is glass barrier but I suspect it is screening which I think would work nicely.

>>Thanks.
>>I've decided to cancel the vapor bulb on order & place the turtle enclosure w/in a free section of my larger (4'x2') enclosure (where they'll be as adults). This way they can utelize the 48" UV tube that runs the length of that enclosure & I can supply less intense heat with a standard bulb clamped to the edge.
>>I've ordered new UV tubes from Big Apple (they're on a great sale this week) & ordered 2, so I can replace when they stop providing UV.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Robins Critters
>>1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
>>1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
>>0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
>>1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
>>0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
>>1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
>>0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
>>0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
>>0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
>>1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
>>1.1 Cats Gus & Mena
>>
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thank you. I did a lot of research before building it. The light is seperated by hardware wire, so no real filtration of the UV.
-----
Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

Excellent... very innovative.(entered into permanent memory.)

>>Thank you. I did a lot of research before building it. The light is seperated by hardware wire, so no real filtration of the UV.
>>-----
>>Robins Critters
>>1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
>>1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
>>0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
>>1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
>>0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
>>1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
>>0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
>>0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
>>0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
>>1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
>>1.1 Cats Gus & Mena
>>
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Sorry for the confusion. When you go to a forum where most people keep and produce, and have kept and produced, a limited number of box turtles, the greatest exposure to any literature tends to be traditional pet care guides and websites, and all of those sources conveniently state that UV bulbs for inside animals are a necessity.

Unfortunately, many people (including some who can write care guides and build websites) have not produced enough offspring to feel comfortable "experimenting," and thus do not have any two-way experimental values. That means, animals raised with UV bulbs vs. animals raised without them, so the actual necessity of the bulbs can be qualitatively measured.

You can raise box turtles with UV bulbs. That's your choice, and that's the great thing about these forums. If you don't like what you hear, leave that suggestion and see what the other suggestion achieves. Then let us know. Learning all the way around. For some, they like to assume this is just argument all the way around; that's why you got such polar responses after my suggestion. Some immediately assume that what I said was wrong based on halfway information. Some seem to think, if I raise baby box turtles successfully with the bulbs, how could you do so without them?

Well, you can also raise box turtles without UV bulbs. Here, you don't risk burning them (especially with that side-suspension thing you have going on - ouch for the eyeballs!), and those bulbs’ rays can indeed burn soft baby turtles to carcinogous effects. The problem is, the little box turtles don't move much, and if they settle down too close to the light (i.e., within the usable range of the rays) for too long, sizzle sizzle. Many UV bulb advocates like to forget that while UVB can help indoor turtles produce D3, they are still UV rays, which also bombard every aspect of the animal's tissue. The good comes with the bad.

Okay, I'll share personal info here since this particular example is not likely to misrepresent baby box turtles as a whole. I've raised many clutches of the animals indoors for the first two years without UV bulbs. I've also raised plenty of them outdoors. When the proper base necessities were completely provided for indoors (and understanding the proper necessities is the important part), indoor growth rates exceeded those outside (no indoor hibernation means longer growing spans).

This is important for everyone's consideration. When an animal fails, we like to diagnose that failure as attributable to one specific problem. Improper diet, poor humidity, no UV. It could be one, or it could be multiple aspects of maintenance were just not close enough.

UV bulb necessity for indoor turtles has become a catch-all, mostly for people who haven't gone without the bulbs on many clutches, or by people who unknowingly goofed on some other aspect of husbandry and then blamed the lack of UV bulbs.

We have to notice, many individuals who breed large numbers of turtles of various species, don’t utilize UV bulbs for indoor animals. Using UV bulbs for large stocks is cost-prohibitive. So, it is many of the smaller-scale keepers that use the bulbs and advocate their use by all others, and those are ironically the people who produce fewer animals. Go figure.

Humorous, you keep lots of non-turtle herps. How many of your other animals get UV bulbs? How many breeders of those animals have done it across many generations without UV bulbs? I can actually name eight of the species you have listed in your ownership that have proved UV bulbs to be unnecessary when the proper necessities are addressed. Nine if we include the cats.

The difference with those other animals is that they have been bred for many more consistent generations. The maturation rates are much quicker than in turtles, so breeders have learned from trial and error of application more rapidly. Many keepers still have little understanding of what exactly the “magic recipe” is for turtles. That recipe is simply understanding what is necessary, what is not necessary, and not substituting one for the other, just like in any other captive species. Baby turtles clearly benefit from outdoor UV rays, but, they can grow perfectly fine without them indoors, too. I guess that’s just telling some keepers that they have too much leeway, hey?

I take your point that we don't really have studies yet that show UV as technically necessary for box turtles. I have a UV bulb in that enclosure because the care sheets were mixed on Blue Tongue Skinks & my skink is in that cabinet. I figured I should provide UV for him & that the others housed there can share the benefits. I actually find one of my Hog Island Boas "basking", plastered up against the hardware wire, nearly every day. I figure UV can't hurt w/ diurnal species & may very well benefit them. I also have UV over my frog & toad, for the same reason.

As a keeper, I make every effort to be fully informed of an animal's requirements BEFORE I purchase, in order to ensure that I am able to properly provide for all of my animals for the entirety of their potentially long lives. In that spirit, I'm asking these questions & trying to make the best care decisions for my new little additions. I appreciate the lively & informed debate & the time it takes everyone to respond.

-----
Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snakes Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
0.1.1 Crested Geckos Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.0.1 Tiger Salamander Tiger
1.1.3 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Isaac Newton, Fig Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

I actually agree with casichelydia about UV not being a necessity. I’ve kept and bred a number of species with little or no exposure to UV lighting. My spotted turtles don’t get it and they seem to do fine. Any growth irregularities I had were due (this is my own personal opinion backed up by only my experience with the animals!!) to improper diet and temperatures. Since I switched to my current setup about 10 years back, I’ve had no problems. I raise my hatchlings in 5 gallon aquariums with a regular old 60 watt house hold light-bulb to provide basking temps and a bare bottomed tank . An under-tank heater is used to heat the water . I feed them as much as they can eat twice a day (food sticks, earthworms, crickets etc.) and as long as the temps allow them to utilize the food correctly they do fine. No pyramiding and good growth rates. I realize I’m talking about spotted’s and not box turtles, but I believe the same could be accomplished with them. Just my two cents
RFB

Have you tried using UV? I don't know if it's been said but the balance between all the components required in raising these animals is a dynamic... a deficiency in one component can be compensated for by an addition in another. The UV might make one of the other components easier to deal with.

>>I actually agree with casichelydia about UV not being a necessity. I’ve kept and bred a number of species with little or no exposure to UV lighting. My spotted turtles don’t get it and they seem to do fine. Any growth irregularities I had were due (this is my own personal opinion backed up by only my experience with the animals!!) to improper diet and temperatures. Since I switched to my current setup about 10 years back, I’ve had no problems. I raise my hatchlings in 5 gallon aquariums with a regular old 60 watt house hold light-bulb to provide basking temps and a bare bottomed tank . An under-tank heater is used to heat the water . I feed them as much as they can eat twice a day (food sticks, earthworms, crickets etc.) and as long as the temps allow them to utilize the food correctly they do fine. No pyramiding and good growth rates. I realize I’m talking about spotted’s and not box turtles, but I believe the same could be accomplished with them. Just my two cents
>>RFB
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I used to use it when I was breeding redfoots and yellowfoots. And to be honest results varied. With some of the hatchlings I'd get pyramidal growth and not with others. The setups were cages 8 by 4 by 6. The sustrate was ground peat moss mixed with about 20 % sand and this was kept damp to the point where if you squeezed a handful of the substrate, it held it's shape but wasn't soaking wet. The depth was around 18 inches. A basking spot was provided by a 100 watt flood light placed above a pair of slate tiles. background heat was provided by a forced air heater hooked up to a thermostat and set at around 26 celcius. I had a pair of 4 foot flourescent light fixture that hung approximately 30 inches above the substrate. Eggs were always laid by the females under the basking spot. They'd move the slate tiles when they wanted to lay. I fed the hatchlings with mixed greens and fruit with a sprinkling of a retyile vitamen which did contain D3 twice a week. Hacthlings were kept about the same as the adults and I had mixed success. some had slight pyramiding and some were perfect I can be darned if I know why. I started off using vitalites and then switched to the reptisun's as time went on. I gave up in the end and just used regular flourescents to light the enclosures.

So that in a nutshell is my experience with UVB bulbs.
I'm not saying they aren't beneficial. I'm just saying in my LIMITED experience I couldn't see a difference with or without them.

Thanks for the insight.

>>I used to use it when I was breeding redfoots and yellowfoots. And to be honest results varied. With some of the hatchlings I'd get pyramidal growth and not with others. The setups were cages 8 by 4 by 6. The sustrate was ground peat moss mixed with about 20 % sand and this was kept damp to the point where if you squeezed a handful of the substrate, it held it's shape but wasn't soaking wet. The depth was around 18 inches. A basking spot was provided by a 100 watt flood light placed above a pair of slate tiles. background heat was provided by a forced air heater hooked up to a thermostat and set at around 26 celcius. I had a pair of 4 foot flourescent light fixture that hung approximately 30 inches above the substrate. Eggs were always laid by the females under the basking spot. They'd move the slate tiles when they wanted to lay. I fed the hatchlings with mixed greens and fruit with a sprinkling of a retyile vitamen which did contain D3 twice a week. Hacthlings were kept about the same as the adults and I had mixed success. some had slight pyramiding and some were perfect I can be darned if I know why. I started off using vitalites and then switched to the reptisun's as time went on. I gave up in the end and just used regular flourescents to light the enclosures.
>>
>>So that in a nutshell is my experience with UVB bulbs.
>>I'm not saying they aren't beneficial. I'm just saying in my LIMITED experience I couldn't see a difference with or without them.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

One thing that caught my eye in your description of your set-up was the distance of the fluorescent fixture from the surface of the substrate.
Had you considered what's referred to as 'fall-off' of the light?
I think your fluorescent fixture was too far away to be of any use other than for general illumination. The packaging should have indicate how close the lightsource needed to be to the animal for maximum benefit, typically 10-12 inches away.
Incandescent bulbs are another matter entirely, and should be posioned farther away (distance depending on wattage, etc.)
I don't mean to sound overly critical of your set up, so hopefully you won't take it that way. Rather, I'm wondering if your conclusions may have been mistaken, simply as a result of incorrect use of the lights.
As for fall off: have you ever seen a photograph of, say, a streetlight at night? How it has a sort of halo of light around the lamp, but objects closeby are in shadow, and objects across the street are in darkness? That would be a good illustration of what is meant by fall-off. So even though your animals may have been illuminated (as seen with your eyes), in fact very little light actually reaches them. Fluorescents are worse than incandescent bulbs in this respect.
Another example would be grow-lights for plants: fluorescent bulbs must be positioned within inches of plants in order for the plants to photosynthesize, whereas incandescent grow-lights are positioned up to a few feet away.
That would be one reason why you are not observing a difference between regular and UV fluorescents with regards to your animals.
I do thank you for providing specifics: it is most helpful when assessing information.
Thanks again &
Regards
Stephanie

Sorry. My bad for not being clearer. When I said "Hacthlings were kept about the same as the adults" I did not mean that they were in an adult enclosure. I meant relatively they were kept the same. They were in plastic tupperware tubs with the same peat substrate with a 60 watt incandescent basking light. Tubs were lined up under 4 foot florescent fixtures. Height was about a foot from the top of the tub. Tubs were approximately 6 inches deep. That still falls slightly outside the ideal distance you mentioned to be sure, but I think it should have been close enough to do the trick. I'm still curious as to why some pyramided and some didn't. Results were mixed even within the same group of hatchlings. I'd tinker with diet, vitamens etc. but I never got it to the point where I was producing totally flawless shells 100% of the time. If I had to guess i'd say the ratio was about 70 -30 of pyramiding to non-pyramiding.
The thing that interests me is that in my LIMITED experience with my group and some others who either hatched out their own or bought hatchlings results varied wildly even with UV lighting. My only conclusion, non-scientific though it may be is that there are a host of factors that we don't quite have a grasp on that contribute to pyramidal growth in chelonians(thats my big word for today ). UV light may help but I don't think it's been proven to be esential.

Thanks for clarifying....
You might want to re-think your whole take on pyramiding in general, since it seems to occur more often as a result of excessive protein consumption (primarily). Ed knows alot more about tortoises than I do...
I only keep eastern box turtles, and not anything else, so I don't pretend to be an expert. However in the course of reading, I do come across information pertaining to other species. I've provoded a ilink at the end of this post for you that might offer some insight on pyramiding.
In the meantime, since there are so many variables with what you tried, lighting and diet-wise, I'm still not convinced that UV is not necessary.
Again, thanks for providing details about your setup.
Link

I guess we'll agree to disagree. Interestingly enough there was an article in Reptiles magazine that tied pyramidal growth to humidity levels. I just don't think anythings been proven one way or the other. Burt I'm completely open to all information nad if anyone can come up with conclusive evidence one way or the other I'd be most interested. All the best, it was an interesting discussion.

There is ever mounting evidence to support the idea that pyramiding is not caused by pyramiding but by primarily improper environmental conditions such as heat and humidity.

Actually, Boxies help support this idea when you consider their protein intake in addition to the deformaties that occur in them.

>>Thanks for clarifying....
>>You might want to re-think your whole take on pyramiding in general, since it seems to occur more often as a result of excessive protein consumption (primarily). Ed knows alot more about tortoises than I do...
>>I only keep eastern box turtles, and not anything else, so I don't pretend to be an expert. However in the course of reading, I do come across information pertaining to other species. I've provoded a ilink at the end of this post for you that might offer some insight on pyramiding.
>>In the meantime, since there are so many variables with what you tried, lighting and diet-wise, I'm still not convinced that UV is not necessary.
>>Again, thanks for providing details about your setup.
>>Link
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>There is ever mounting evidence to support the idea that pyramiding is not caused by pyramiding but by primarily improper environmental conditions such as heat and humidity.
>>
I assume this is a typo & you meant that pyramiding may not be caused by protein.

>>Actually, Boxies help support this idea when you consider their protein intake in addition to the deformaties that occur in them.

I'm not posting an opinion on what causes pyramiding but I want to toss in my own personal observation as just some "food for thought" so to speak. I live in a desert where in some years like this one we'll see a lot of rain. Before we got a lot of rain this year we had 11 years of drought & during some of those years of drought it didn't rain for sometimes anywhere between 6 & 9 months.
When it did rain it wasn't enough to break the drought. We normally have more years with drought-like conditions than not, a lot of rain for several years in a row is uncommon.
The point is wild box turtles around here can go for a long long time before they find a drink of water.

I've noticed that all the wild ornate box turtles I find have some degree of pyramiding. The ornates here eat a lot of protein, they prefer insects or carrion over vegetation even though they will take vegetation if they can find it.
Dr. Donohue from Walkabout Farms brought up the theory that humidity may play a larger role in pyramiding than anyone previously thought. I read her small article about that online before that other article appeared in Reptiles magazine, so this idea has been floating around for a while now.

Based on what I'm seeing in the wild box turtles, so many with lumpy carapaces, & knowing how little water they can find for months at a time I really do wonder if this idea that a lack of water/humidity does have a lot to do with pyramiding. With the more carnivorous ornate desert boxies, does the protein level in their diet matter or not? I don't know but wish I did & that's my obsevation.

Ok I will now send you back to regular programming.
-----
PHRatz

Yes... I made a mistake... but you got the point.

The person who wrote the article for Reptiles has been playing with the idea for well over 15 years. I came to similar conclusions a little over 10 years ago. This is one of the reasons why I push the heat and hydration thing.

>>>>There is ever mounting evidence to support the idea that pyramiding is not caused by pyramiding but by primarily improper environmental conditions such as heat and humidity.
>>>>
>>I assume this is a typo & you meant that pyramiding may not be caused by protein.
>>
>>>>Actually, Boxies help support this idea when you consider their protein intake in addition to the deformaties that occur in them.
>>
>>I'm not posting an opinion on what causes pyramiding but I want to toss in my own personal observation as just some "food for thought" so to speak. I live in a desert where in some years like this one we'll see a lot of rain. Before we got a lot of rain this year we had 11 years of drought & during some of those years of drought it didn't rain for sometimes anywhere between 6 & 9 months.
>>When it did rain it wasn't enough to break the drought. We normally have more years with drought-like conditions than not, a lot of rain for several years in a row is uncommon.
>>The point is wild box turtles around here can go for a long long time before they find a drink of water.
>>
>>I've noticed that all the wild ornate box turtles I find have some degree of pyramiding. The ornates here eat a lot of protein, they prefer insects or carrion over vegetation even though they will take vegetation if they can find it.
>> Dr. Donohue from Walkabout Farms brought up the theory that humidity may play a larger role in pyramiding than anyone previously thought. I read her small article about that online before that other article appeared in Reptiles magazine, so this idea has been floating around for a while now.
>>
>>Based on what I'm seeing in the wild box turtles, so many with lumpy carapaces, & knowing how little water they can find for months at a time I really do wonder if this idea that a lack of water/humidity does have a lot to do with pyramiding. With the more carnivorous ornate desert boxies, does the protein level in their diet matter or not? I don't know but wish I did & that's my obsevation.
>>
>>Ok I will now send you back to regular programming.
>>-----
>>PHRatz
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care