Reptile & Amphibian Forums

FR just a question. In your observations have you ever noted whether the venomous or non venomous were seen more. In my (few) years and notes I have found in Georgia that I have seen lots more venomous than non in the colder months. Im just curious if it had been noted by any others?
Thanks for your insight
Toby
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...are the following.

No matter what habitat I am observing I almost always see far more venomous snakes in the months of March and April. The only exceptions I can think of garters, ribbons, and racers. But they seem to congregate if you will. I often encounter far more venomous snakes in the fall months as well. The last several snakes I have seen, including DOR's have been either canebrakes or copperheads.

I have seen cottonmouths basking on beaver dams in the morning during deer season in 40 degree weather.

This weekend I saw a huge female copperhead crossing the road at 7:30 pm in the upper 50's.

I hardly ever see an colubrids, other than Nerodia, in these temps.

Interesting observations Matt. I wonder if a bit of this might be influenced by region and local conditions. For example, though very common here in Ky the copperhead comes out of winter dormancy later than the local Colubrids. Timbers even later with the cottons being apparently fairly cold tolerant. Some numbers for comparison purposes from this year concerning live snakes seen in the field.

Ringnecks snakes = 220
Racers = 167
Copperheads = 90

This from 838 live snakes seen this year from two dozen species.

These are the species we have seen most often in numerical order (as an aside kingsnakes rank 5th at 71 seen this year right behind garter snakes).

Some other numbers,
Cottonmouth = 11. This species is not found state wide so our encounters with them are limited to a handful of trips to their habitat.
Timbers = 20. First encounter late April (which is earlier than in most years). Most commonly seen in May and early June with most snakes seen in the summer months being gravid females under AC or at rooks.
Copperheads = 90. Start turning up in early to mid April well after most Colubrids have been resuming surface activity. This is probably the most commonly seen snake by us in the heat of summer.
Western pygmies = very limited Ky range. No observations.

There will be exceptions here but this is the norm in Ky.

I would like to hear more about this from others. Phil

Phil, Northern Michigan is usually the northernmost limit for most species at this longitude. Eastern garters are the most cold tolerant and occur way up into Canada. Not many others reach the north shore of L. Superior. They usually don't come out of winter dormancy until March or even April in n. MI. The most abundant snakes, other than E. garters, are probably the browns and redbellies. I usually see hundreds every yr., but it also depends what habitat you're in. They usually don't come out until April or even May in cold yrs. The northern water snake and blue racer may come out in April, and possibly a couple others. Most of our snakes come out in late April to late May in the north. Once I saw a hognose frozen in April on the ground. It had come out the day before when it was quite warm (about 70*F), then froze when a cold front came in overnight. The E. hognose usually comes out around the end of the 2nd week in May to bask. It's quite predictable and they rarely bask once the temps are warmer and more to their liking. This past summer I only saw two E. milksnakes, one on our property and one at my massasauga spot near L. Huron. Both were seen on Memorial Day Weekend. It wasn't a good year for milks here, whereas last year I saw a couple dozen. Near L. Huron, slightly different conditions, I don't see ringnecks, Butler's garters, or milks until late May. Also, hognose don't occur there, and can only be found about 3 miles inland. Habitat is important.

Ok, now for the pits. We only have one venomous snake, the E. massasauga. I usually don't see them until after the 1st of June. They are one of the latest to come out in the north. However, in the southern part of the state, they usually come out in April, or even March in really warm years. I might add we don't always see snakes that are active either. Some species have a spring migration, and sometimes we are looking in the wrong places. For instance, the 'saugas in the north often overwinter in swamps and may only come to high, dry ground in summer. Also, when I lived in se. Ohio, I noticed that several species could be seen moving from their winter quarters to summer residence at the appropriate time later in spring. Some species I saw moving from uplands into lowlands around the same time of year were the black ratsnake, copperhead, and hognose snake. I know you can find timbers around their dens early before they head out to forage for the season. Also, they hang around their dens in the fall for awhile before going back into winter dormancy. The earliest I think I heard of them being found was April in s. Ohio, but I never experienced this myself. The colubrids I usually started finding in March or April in Ohio. April is a very active month. Amphibians I found year 'round.

Different parts of the country have different conditions and I'm sure different snakes can be prevalent depending on those conditions, as I'm sure you know.

Here's one of our Afton ponds in winter...

Terry

Great analysis Terry. I have guessed what may happen further north but I have no experience there. Here it seems the Natricines emerge the earliest as well as the small forest dwellers such as Diadophis, Storeria, Carphophis and Virginia. The first snakes we see each year are usually Thamnophis, Nerodia, Regina and Clonophis. By late March Coluber, Elaphe, Heterodon and Lampropeltis are up. Agkistrodon a couple of weeks later and Crotalus by late April.

Thanks for the reply. Your wintry pond looks inviting! When I see something like that I get to thinking about all those amphibians I enjoy seeing so much after the first of the year. Phil

Thanks, Phil. You sure have some cool snakes down there in KY. I envy you getting out a couple months before us and seeing them. I don't even see amphibians til the end of March. Of course, I'm sometimes in AZ for Spring Break, and get to see some cool herps then. In a few yrs. I'll be there year 'round and hopefully be able to find herps year 'round. Later...TC.

Matt where are you located? I see Toby is in Georgia and I am kinda assuming you are in Georgia or one of its neighboring states. If I am right than both of you are in an area that I have found more hots than nots all year long. You can't ignore some of the snakes seen that are non venomous just to make your point either. LOL

Thats kinda like what the government does when deciding if a section of expensive land has any animals that might be endangered on it. They go through and look at what is there and then ignore the (in Florida) gopher tortoises and the associated animals in their holes and say nope no endangered animals here except those torts ad we can move them across the street. LOL

I mean no big deal it is just cute to see you say yup only hots except the garters and the waters and the ribbons and the other waters and the racers. What are you guys looking to see move in the winter months??? I am really not trying to flame you at all it was just funny to read and I was mostly wondering if you read what you wrote or even meant it.

Again not trying to be a jerk but in Florida(east coast) where I was hots where not all that common except for in the center of the state. I did not take that many drives looking for snakes in the cold months. But come spring I always got impatient and went out when it was still to cold and I found waters (all 3) garters ribbons, and scarlet kings and a few rat snakes. During the day it is almost always racers. The racers are the like the pigeons here in Chicago. They know how far to be from humans to be safe and stay away but they also know that humans mean food and will follow people waiting for anoles to get spooked and they grab them. Anyway just having fun guys.

Later Jason

Jason,
Its not so much as what Im expecting to see moving in the winter months as most of that time I spend deer hunting. I have just noticed that when out in the cooler months Nov. Dec. and then again in Feb and Mar. I see more vens than nons.Im not trying to make a statement of thats the ways it is, It is just (my) observations. And my question was meant to be something like what are ya'll seeing in the cooler months?
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Here in alabama... As of almost every state, the eastern is the first to emerge.. Usually lare Feb.- March.. and to follow are most all the smaller snakes, as of ringnecks, browns, redbellys,and eastern worms, And the midland water snake tends to be cold tolerant here. most are in March to April, but found 4 individuals basking on a old bring in Feb..Most copperheads, canebrake rattlers here tend to emerge in April or late April and May.. and by April about everything is out and about now..and usally dont see any black rats till about May or so..that including black kingsnakes and some eastern milks..

Hey I was not trying to be mean it was just funny to me. Anyway in Georgia my experience has shown there to be much higher numbers of hots found year round if you separate by species. In the southern region of the state the canebrakes are everywhere and gorgeous and in the northern region its the copperheads that are all over. In my hunting it is hard to have a day where you turn up more of anything else in numbers.

But for cold weather activity it is hard to beat garters for being the most cold tolerant across the country. There is the one on the west coast who's name escapes me but they can actually be frozen and they come back to life when they thaw. Lets see a copperhead do that. LOl

Later Jason

Jason, I'm flattered that you found my comments so amusing.

I'm not sure what time of day(or night maybe) that I wrote those comments, but what I meant to say was this....

If I had to look at individual species such as agkistrodon or crotulus I would say that I encounter far more individual hots in the field as different species. But if I lump them all together I find more non-hots. For example, if I hunt on any spring afternoon in the low 60's I might encounter a total of 15 snakes. Lets say that 7 of those are copperheads, and the rest mixed up colubrids. The colubrids as a whole outnumber the hots, but the hots were greater in density. Sound better?

LOL I really hope I didn't offend you it was just funny for me to read. I know what you mean. I have hunted in Georgia and turned up more canebrakes than anything else but as you said the misc total was higher. It is just kind of a silly question that is to easily biased by the region and population density of any given snake in the area. Come to think of it ringnecks seem to be the most common snake that I have found under cover in Florida. I mean I found 8 under one piece of carpet and 6 under the carpet next to that one. Hard to get more of anything when they are found like that.

The whole topic is really up to interpretation by the species you are after and where you hunt and how you hunt oh and what time of day you hunt. LOL Oh by the way where are you. What state I mean.

Later Jason

It takes much worse than that to offend me. I got a chuckle knowing I made you chuckle. LOL.

I completely agree with your statements as well.

I am currently located at Mississippi State in Starkville, MS. I spend a lot of time back home in Fayette, AL where I grew up, and I still go home there to see my parents, hunt, and look for snakes.

Thats a good question. Its not about venomous or not. It can be about how you look and the structure of the snake. For instance, Rattlesnakes are venomous, they also have very thick skin, to prevent dehydration, this means they can spend more time exposed to air. So you can see these types out in the open more often. This has nothing to do with winter.

On the other hand, kingsnakes are very thin skinned, this limits there exposure to air. So they will not be out in the air often. But they do like to coil where they can see out. Again, this has nothing to do with winter.

On the third hand, the most commonly found snakes crossing roads in southern Arizona, all winter are in this order, patchnose, gophersnakes, and greenrats. The most commonly found just sitting out in the winter are of course rattlesnakes of various types.

On our Willards/Lepidus, study site, of course Lepidus are most common in winter, followed by Willards, then Sonoran Racers, then Patchnose. This site is at 6000FT.

On my gila sites, rattlesnakes, patchnose, lyresnakes, gophersnakes, racers are the most commonly snakes seen in winter.

On my sites, I do not disturb cover, I only view what is out or near out. In the old days, 30 yrs ago, I would uncover(disturb) snakes, at that time, kingsnakes, lyresnakes, spottednights, were the most commonly found snakes active in winter.

When I lived in Fla, My favorite winter time activity was to go out after a blue northern, when the temps were very cold, 15F at night, 45F and sunny in the day, and find ratsnakes out by the ton. Also scarlet kings were out at this time as well.

The point here is, you see what is out, by where and how you look. Also by the tools you use. For instance, I carry a small flashlite. Most individual snakes, are sitting in holes, or cracks or under bark, with a coil or their head near the edge.

Heres what is humorous to me. In the old days, my group of friends used a particular brand of flashlite found a K-mart. This lite was referred to as a snake lite. What this paragraph means is, this was common knowledge to a whole bunch of us. Our group of people mostly hunted snakes in the winter and lizards in the summer. How odd is that.

Just a side note. on our studysite, we collect data more in the late fall/winter, then in the summer. The reason is, in the summer we locate(we use pit tags) from one to three snakes on an average day. In the winter, we locate an average of 15 in a lot shorter time(different day lenght) In the winter our limiting factor is the time it takes to process the individuals. In the summer the limiting factor is locating the snakes. Again at 6000 FT. or above, often in the snow, with frozen creeks etc. Yet the snakes are all on the surface doing lifes events. We have been officially on this site for 14 yrs. But I often went here for 10 yrs before that.

So yes, with my experience, I do not have the same view of hibernation often discribed in books. The reason is clear, the wild snakes keep telling me otherwise. Of course in New York city, or in Canada, behaviors are forced down farther from the surface, by cold, but I do not think you can make a snake into something else, but you can limit them until they will no longer exsist.

I have a question for you, what do you think the temperature in a cave thats facing the sun in New York is??? You understand caves have constant temps. How about in the Kentucky cave systems? How about here in southern Az.??? These questions are very important. Cheers FR

Along the same lines, I find snakes under warmer cover into late November here in Buffalo. Right in the city, along the train tracks that pass through the town and surrounding areas. I find N. redbellied snakes and N. brown snakes under tin along the southern track berms routinely when temps drop into the mid 40s. Remember, this is after several snow falls by this point in the season. Often there will still be wet patches of snow within feet of the cover that I find these snakes under. The garters, waters and eastern milkers seem to be out of sight (not necessarily brumating of course, but not in plain sight) by mid-October, but those little slug eaters are out until their food cannot be found anymore. What really amazes me though are the midland painted turtles that can be routinely seen basking on logs in early Feb with a couple of feet of snow on the ground and with over 50% of their pond surface still frozen. Also, wood turtles are frequently brought into local pet shops to be "saved" in all of the cold months except Jan. and Feb. I agree that the term brumation in reptiles needs to be re-defined, because in its present state, it often doesn't apply to these critters, even in the great white north (WNY). Thanks.

Will

These two were found in an unheated hunting cabin along the NY/PA border when the indoor temp (when discovered) was about 40F

When I first started, I too found many snakes under artificial cover, both early and late in the year. Then I learned why these snakes learned to use AC. Their natural behaviors are the exact same, they did not invent behaviors for tin or any AC. They are simply doing what they do normally. So I learned where they did that. Of course each species do the same thing differently.

That last sentence is key and hard to understand. Most people want all species to be different. They are not, their requirements are almost identical. Whats different is how they get their requirements. Its all about behaviors. Thanks and nice ringnecks. FR

Good stuff, ya'll! I found this indy in the Transpecos in Feb. this year with its head poking out from under a rock in a depression. Not a first for me but was excited to discover for myself that it was active in a colder clime than I was used to and from a farther western longitude than I had previously been accustomed to. Snakes are very interesting and I'm glad to be a part of this kind of forum. Now if I can just get that grayband to cooperate!

Sir, it seems to me, you are having far to much fun, a person should not be allowed to have so much of that. Congrats and keep enjoying yourself. I am getting a bit jealous. So I will go bush, right now. hahahahahaha FR