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Uh Oh!, another contraversial topic: Do Loose Substrate Really Kill Captive Reptiles?....

odatriad Oct 17, 2005 12:38 PM

Personally, I have gotten into many heated arguments and debates about this notion that so many reptile keepers believe- the thought that loose substrates such as sand, dirt, silt, loam, etc.., kills animals.

You see this topic come up often on such fora as the leopard gecko forum, uromastyx forum, and bearded dragon forum, and from the looks of it, it is supposedly/evidently a common occurrence in captive reptiles.

So, hopefully we can get an intellectual and meaningful discussion going, from opposing 'sides' of this argument.
What are your thoughts on this subject? Is it really the substrate which is killing these animals?

I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions, and evidence supporting either side of the argument, on this subject. Cheers folks, I look forward to another great discussion with all of you.

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

Replies (24)

phiber_optikx Oct 17, 2005 12:59 PM

I'm not sure I understand what your saying. Are you saying thesubstrate is killing animals by bacteria or something else like that. Or are you refering to impaction? I believe impaction kills animals, but not nearly as frequently as people think. I do not think impaction is a problem as long as you keep an eye on your reptile as it eats. I only have experience with snakes so I am not sure about other reptiles.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

HerpZillA Oct 17, 2005 01:14 PM

Yes it can kill herps. But so can almost anything.

I thought calci sand was a great idea. Especially when I found out it was calcium carbonate and I could get ground limestone for $35 a ton. (SAME THING GANG) But then I saw a few small geckos get impactions. So I thought ok, for bigger herps. Wrong, then I read to much calcium can actually line the stomach causing the stomach absorption to stop.

I was rather PO'd. I want a nice substrate I feel will not has a potential to kill. HHmmm ok, I want something that has a very low potential to harm.

I am a lizard person by nature, but have more snakes as they are less maintenance. I had collared lizards for years. I used packed clay from my yard. I placed it in the oven, when the wife was at work, and heated to 275-300 for a few hours. Then pack into cages with a little water to bind.

When I bred Jackson chameleons, I mainly used pothos, and I just covered the soil is the large Tupperware container I used as a pot with golf ball sized gravel. My drip watered the plant, and the Chams could not pick up substrate in their mouths.

I use aspen and maybe self ground cypress for my beardies.
http://www.herpzilla.com/beardie/b1.jpg
Just a link as the pic is large, look if you like.

If you wander to my site I may have a section about how I want to produce items like this. I HATE the fact some stuff is so grossly over priced. Aspen for example. I see small bags at shows for $5. A bale retail should not be over $25 and as low as $10 depending on size and brand. As for the substrate materials, I think must is grossly over priced. AND I SELL IT! But I also grind my own and sell it too.

All I can say is be an educated consumer, and think about what you are buying. And this topic should be hot. So many people get stuck on a material because they like it and they have no issues for maybe a year or two. This is no way any type of study to prove its safety.

I'm looking forward to reading a lot of new ideas, and a lot of opinions. It lets me gather information.

This is the place I want to put one of those prophetic statements.

My Adult beardie trio

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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

phiber_optikx Oct 17, 2005 01:38 PM

I agree. I use reptibark because I like the way it looks. But I also know it is dangerous because I have had to pull pieces of bark out of my ball pythons mouth. (stuck to his meal) and that is why you never leave a snake alone during meal time.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

HerpZillA Oct 17, 2005 01:49 PM

Ditto your view. I alwasy preach this, but adit I do not always do it. It's easy to avoid the ingestion problem by feeding in a separate container. No substrate of course. It does have many advantages, but I admit, I open my baby hognose tub and just hand feed them. So do as I say and not as I do.. lol

My life is a paradox which is heterozygote for normal.
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Matt Campbell Oct 17, 2005 01:38 PM

...you really like to stir the pot dontcha? I can offer up my own anecdotal evidence by saying this:

In my own personal collection and my 25 years of keeping various herps, I have never had a single animal die from gut impaction due to ingesting substrate. In all those years and dozens of animals, I have used every substrate imaginable from plain old dirt from my backyard to cypress mulch and pretty much everything inbetween. Incidentally, I have on numerous occasions observed my snakes ingest sliver-like pieces of substrate like cypress mulch or occasionally a piece of pine bark. None of these snakes has EVER suffered any ill effects and all continue to be completely healthy.

At the zoo I work at, reptiles have been housed on natural substrates of differing compositions for oh, something like the last 60 or 70 years! Again, no deaths due to impaction.

It's my understanding that animals that have died from impaction of substrate have done so because other aspects of the captive environment were contributing factors. A typical case would be a gecko species that dies from a gut impaction. The owner thinks that the sand was the culprit when in fact they kept the cage far too dry so when the already dehydrated animal accidentally ingested substrate it's already damaged system was unable to pass the sand because it was no longer capable of proper healthy digestion due to dehydration.

Another case would be someone who inappropriately keeps tortoise on gravel. Tortoises are sloppy, messy, eaters and will tend to ingest all manner of debris in the pursuit of a juicy piece of fruit. Again, if the tortoise ingests rocks it's going to get impacted - this is a case of an inappropriate substrate causing an impaction that may or may not be fatal. So, in this case proper selection of an appropriate substrate would eliminate this issue.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

HerpZillA Oct 17, 2005 01:58 PM

MAN I love this forum. Great info on the existing health of the herp. I never really thought of that factor.

I do know a friend that lost a massasauga from getting a piece of cypress stuck in his throat. that seems to be teh issue with snakes. But I also have seen my hognose of eat small pieces of bedding.

I have seen and heard of lizard impactions, but now I have to re think them all. THANKS! lol
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

-ryan- Oct 19, 2005 08:26 AM

Lizard impactions are almost exclusively caused by poor substrate choices and improper temperatures/humidity levels.

Most captive lizards are constantly dehydrated, because we're not giving them what they use in the wild. Desert reptiles find areas to go that have high humidity (like in burrows, or under rocks), and they also are able to choose from a variety of basking conditions. For the most part, reptiles in the desert do not bask during the hottest part of the day, but if they happen to have trouble passing something, the higher temps are there in the daytime to help get the object(s) moving out of their system.

I think all desert lizards should at least have access to some area of hightened humidity to escape from dryness. In my bearded dragon enclosure, my mali uromastyx enclosure, and my russian tortoise enclosure (he's arriving any minute now!), I have moist soil for substrate. It doesn't make the entire tank very humid, but if you dig down even just a centimeter, or if you check out some of the hiding spots, there are a variety of different humidities for the reptiles to choose from. With my leopard gecko, well, that's a case where I don't trust putting him on a particulate substrate because of his eating habits (he really gets into it when he sees a cricket...I could just see him ingesting mouthful after mouthful of dirt). Plus, despite popular belief...leopard geckos DO NOT live on sand in the wild. They live in and around rocky crevaces (which is where they get their hightened humidity from). I do offer him a humidity shelter, as is usual for a leopard gecko, so he has an area he can go to to keep from becoming dehydrated.

My husbandry isn't the best, but I try to improve it every day. Unlike most people, some of my reptiles were not aquired under the best of terms. My bearded dragon was purchased from a really horrible reptile shop here (I didn't know any better at the time), and because of that, he's always kind of been knocking on death's door...regardless of the medical attention he has recieved. My mali uromastyx is a rescued lizard that has suffered the worst conditions I have ever seen, and because of that she has third degree burn scars all over her. She has actually been thriving. But because of these situations, I have been constantly trying to improve my husbandry in hopes that these two reptiles will have a longer, happier life than they would with 'standard' husbandry. I'm pretty sure that my bearded dragon has been fighting off kidney problems his entire life, and since he's had the ability to reach humid areas, I've noticed some improvement. Of course he will never be normal, but he's gotten better than he was before.

odatriad Oct 17, 2005 03:14 PM

I have to argue against this notion that so many people have, that substrates are what are responsible for causing the impactions which cause the death of the animal. I am also talking more about natural substrates such as sands and soils, not so much as mulch, as mulch is not naturally occuring, and is a manufactured/processed item(I have never found jagged cypress mulch littering the ground in a cypress swamp before...etc). I think that people usually overlook their own husbandry, and do not even consider it to be a possibility for the cause of the situation; instead they make a rash decision on what the only "obvious" cause could be... blaming it on the substrate. "My husbandry was perfect, everything was flawless, so it must have been something else...like the substrate.."- that kind of mentality.

Through my many years involved in the herp hobby, working for pet shops in my younger years, and later on two separate zoological institutions/attractions in more recent years, I have talked to, and have seen firsthand, hundreds of other keeper's setups and conditions, as well as having experimented with my own animals that I have kept, and the ones that I responsible for taking care of at my institutions of employment.

The biggest problem that I see captive animals are faced with, is dehydration... Dehydration is THE #1 underlying cause of death in captive reptiles, whether they are captive bred, or wild caught. This is most often caused by the keeper's inability to understand or offer adequate humidity conditions, or areas that the animal can seek out to use humid conditions. Most reptiles are kept at ambient/room relative humidity levels(20%?) all the time, which are insufficient for virtually all herp species, even desert dwelling herp species.

This 'sand/dirt impaction' fear/problem is most abundant in desert/dry climated herps, such as leopard geckos, bearded dragons, uromastyx, collard lizards, etc. This is one consistency that I have been able to notice between most of these cases.

The reason why so many keepers of the aforementioned species experience such 'substrate problems', in my opinion, is due to insufficient humidities. Most people(general public), and most keepers see a desert dwelling reptile, and think, "well, since this animal comes from the desert, it must like it hot and dry all the time", and keepers in turn offer their captives just that-hot and bone dry.

In all actuality, most desert dwellers do not like the conditions of a desert, or at least not all the time, and will only spend a portion of their time up above where it is hot and sunny. In an environment which is extreme-so hot and dry, any living organism must use whatever resources are available to help conserve water... What is life without water??? Therefore, you will find that desert dwelling/arid environment dwellers spend a great deal of time below ground in burrows(whether they dug them themselves or are utilizing another animal's burrow), deep within rock crevices/fissures, beneath rocks, inside the root balls of plants, etc, etc., where temperatures are cooler, and more importantly, humidity levels are higher.

I presume everybody is familiar with the physical property that molecules move from high concentrations to low concentrations? Animals situate themselves in these damper/humid environments to decrease the rate of water loss through respiration(the #1 source of water loss in reptiles) where there is not as drastic of a difference in humidity levles. Look at it like this; what would evaporate faster? a bowl of water left out in full sun, 100F heat, and 4% humidity, or in a cool, damp cave? Animals(not just reptiles) revolve their survival strategies around conserving water... as without water, they would surely die. So they do whatever they can to escape these dry conditions, where dehydration/dessication rates are amplified. This is something that people of desert/arid dwellers do not understand when going about their husbandry, and do not offer them.

These animals are forced to constantly remain in these dry conditions ALL the time. Therefore, these animals then become dehydrated(even if it is not extreme, and apparent to you, the keeper). Externally, it is almost impossible to understand or notice what is going on physiologically, inside their bodies. Dehydration compromises organ systems hindering efficiency and effectiveness. The digestive system is no exception. A dehydrated animal will have a difficult time digesting normal prey items, let alone inorganic material, as its system is working at a decreased efficiency(perhaps only operating at 20% capacity?)- due to lack of adequate water reserves to aid in such processes. This is why dehydrated animals purposely do not feed(yet people go and force feed them anyways); they know that their bodies are not in the best physical condition to digest food, so they hold off until conditions get better.

Wild animals will be ingesting substrate particles(in one form or another) all the time, with virtually every meal, throughout their entire lives. Reptiles in the wild also live on a wide variety of substrata, of varying chemical compositions, as well as particle size and shape. Members of the same species will be exposed to vastly different substrates according to their natural ranges, and are not 'adapted' or designed to handle one particular substrate.

There are some species of lizards,(Can't remember which species/genera- I will try to find the reference to this study)and other animals such as mammals and birds, which actually INTENTIONALLY ingest clay particles, to aid in digestion of some toxic plant material, as clay acts as a natural buffer, neutralizing harmful chemical reactions which would take place during digestion. We see many other animals intentionally eat rocks and substrate to aid in mechanical digestion.

And yet, for some strange reason, only in captivity, these animals die when living upon these substrates... Something just doesn't make sensse... Something is very different between captive situations and the wild... What stands in between the conditions that captive animals are exposed to, when compared to what wild animals are exposed to... oh yeah, Us!!! It is our own husbandry(the conditions we force our animals to live under) which stands between captive and wild animals.. We are the problem, as we are not providing them with what they need to carry out healthy lives.

And as for all of those people out there, who do believe that substrates kill your herps, because your vet found in an autopsy that there was sand in its intestine... let me ask you this? Did your vet perform any analysis on the kidneys and livers? The problem that I see with most of these "autopsies", is that they look at the proximate causation(sand was lodged in the intestine), as opposed to the ultimate causation(dehydration led to a weakened digestive system, which in turn led to impaction and then death). I would be surprised to see any "substrate death" journal article or publication written by a vet, where he/she also analyzed the kidney and liver functions at the time of death..as these would be indicators of dehydration. In every report I have read on the subject matter, this has been completely overlooked.... Proximate causation is a terrible method for determining the true cause of an event or effect.

This is the problem that I see most keepers do not understand. It is their way of thinking about, and rationalizing situations and problems. To them, everything seems so simple and obvious to them(substrate killed my gecko, therefore I won't keep geckos on substrates anymore), when in all actuality, the problem is much deeper rooted, and more complex in origin.

For those of you who do not understand proximate causation, vs. ultimate causation, I will use an analogy that I used on another fora to support this same discussion..

Proximate Causation: Grandpa died because he had lung cancer

Ultimate Causation: Grandpa smoked 2 packs a day for 50 years, which led to his development of cancer, which in turn led to his death.

Now, which of these two statements gives you the most accurate and comprehensive rationale for Grandpa's death? This is a no-brainer, if you ask me.. This is no different than:

Proximate Causation: "My leopard gecko died because it ingested sand"

Ultimate Causation: "My leopard gecko became dehydrated due to improper humidity levels available to him, thus weakening the digestive system, allowing for an impaction to occur, thus leading to its death".
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Treemonitors.com

odatriad Oct 17, 2005 03:29 PM

I'm not trying to stirr up any trouble.. If I am trying to stir anything up, it is to stir up brain activity in keepers.. Thinks aren't always what they seem, and things are not always obvious and blatantly clear... It is your job, as a keeper, as a scientist, to think as a scientist, and analyze possiblities in a non-biased fashion("my husbandry is perfect, no need to consider that a possibility for the problem".

Every problem that we experience in captivity has a solution, and in 99.999% of those situations, the answer exists out there in the wild(the natural history and ecology of their wild counterparts).. as those animals have been living there for millions of years; not failing after five months like in your leopard gecko in his 10 gallon tank on top of dirt substrate...

By starting these thought-provoking threads, I am merely trying to get people to start thinking from a scientific standpoint, as opposed to the narrowminded, and thick-headed standpoints most are governed by("My husbandry is perfect... can't get any better than this!".

Cheers folks,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

garsik Oct 20, 2005 10:15 PM

So if I understand this correctly, the explaination for animal deaths on natural substrates is actually dehydration and not impaction. Are animals dying from the same cause at he same rate on unnatural substrates?
Jim
PS Sorry Matt, I know I promised not to do this and will certainly regret it.

garsik Oct 22, 2005 08:20 AM

Occam's razor- one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything

garsik Oct 22, 2005 12:33 PM

>I presume everybody is familiar with the physical property that molecules move from high concentrations to low concentrations?<
Would this same property make a "microclimate" in a captive environment hard to establish?

chris_harper2 Oct 17, 2005 02:35 PM

I agree that this subject is overblown.

However, I also must admit that I keep my Bearded Dragon on oat-bran rather than sand.

We adopted the dragon as a young adult and he was suffering from severe chronic consipation. My wife and I worked very hard to get him deficating normally and eating something other than the Super Worms that the previous owner fed him exclusively.

He is now a very healthy dragon who eats a varied diet. He is a beloved pet.

For whatever reason I have not yet become comfortable with the idea of putting him back on sand, even though I'd love to see him dig, burrow, etc., like the previous dragons I kept as breeders.

Ulimately I agree with Matt. My dragon was not constipated due to the sand per se, but rather an accumulation of husbandry mistakes which may or may not have magnified the effects of injested sand.

I did have an Iguana die, apparently from eating peat moss I provided for an ovoposition site. This was confirmed by veternarian necropsy.

But the real question there would be what I was doing wrong to cause my Iguana to eat peat moss? Still, I'd be careful to provide such a substrate again.

HerpZillA Oct 17, 2005 02:49 PM

Great idea with the oat-bran, much like rabbit pellets for torts.

I do not understand why the iguana died though? What did the peat do? Sorry for your loss.
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

chris_harper2 Oct 17, 2005 03:17 PM

>>I do not understand why the iguana died though? What did the peat do? Sorry for your loss.

Yeah, it was painful. She was gravid and this was at a time that captive breedings of Green Iguanas were very rare. Major bummer. It was long enough ago that even having an adult female was a rarity.

I can't remember if the peat moss led to asphyxiation, intestinal blockage, or some combination of both. The veternarian speculated that she was eating the moss due to something otherwise lacking in the diet of a gravid Iguana. Another thought was she was exhibiting PICA (eating of non-nutritive items) to appease the mild Coccidea infection she had at the time.

Either scenario points to a mistake of husbandry on my part.

HerpZillA Oct 17, 2005 03:40 PM

I'm not sure vet reports are all that great? Or do they just add topics to debate. A 5 minute disection, and analysis.

I do help my friend at a shop. We resently had a lady come in with a near dead Chinese water dragon. Her vet said it had MBD. and told her to bring it to us (a pet shop)to put to sleep.

Obviously a vert I would never go to. We have a lady that like to give extreme extra care for such animals. 1 week later the lizard was eating on her own, and doing well. Sunlight, good food and WATER seem to do wonders.

ok, back to VET bashing, most are fair at best. IMO.
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

chris_harper2 Oct 17, 2005 03:47 PM

This one was good, I even participated during the necropsy. He still contacts me for advice even though I've not lived in the town for ten years.

But yeah, many are not so good.

Matt Campbell Oct 17, 2005 04:20 PM

A good exotics vet will often not rely on the results of a gross necropsy to reveal the cause of an animal's death. Case in point: my 1.0 Tangerine Honduran Milksnake died a horrific death complete with gaping mouth and convulsions - all of which I had the misfortune to witness. I immediately was worried that this was neurologic in nature and immediately refridgerated the snake for necropsy. My vet [the former president of the Association of Amphibian and Reptile Veterinarians] performed the necropsy the next day. He found: a mass of firm adhesions on the intestines, an enlarged ventricle of of the heart, and a mass on the adrenal gland. Nothing conclusive to indicate cause of death. So, after consulting with him I had him send off samples for histopathology. The results came back pretty cut-and-dried: death was caused by an infection of the parasite Entoamoeba invadens. Turns out this particular snake had escaped from his cage about three months earlier and had crawled into an open cage housing Three-toed Box Turtles. He was found with the foot of one small 1.0 Box turtle in his mouth and his body coiled around the turtle's shell entirely. The snake was separated from the turtle and neither appeared to be the worse for the wear. Well, obviously the snake contracted the Entamoeba infection either directly from ingesting fecal matter on the turtle's foot or possibly from coming in contact with fecal-contaminated substrate or drinking water. Entamoeba is a common parasite of turtles who are seldom if ever sickened by it's prescence, it can however be deadly to lizards and snakes, and almost always is. So, the moral of the story, and one that was kind of brought up by Bob is that a vet must go beyond the gross necropsy to reveal the true cause of death with any certainty. Chances are, those people who've had animals necropsied have not wanted to spend the additional funds involved in sending out samples for further testing, so they've simply gone with the vet's best guess based on what was found when the animal was opened up. Only when you examine sections of kidneys under a microscope are you really going to find the kinds of damage caused by dehydration which in turn is usually the underlying cause for many captive herp deaths.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

HerpZillA Oct 17, 2005 04:36 PM

This is not the average Vet people have available. Nor the extent of effort most would take to find the true cause of death.

I wish I had such a Vet available.

We use two. I try not to post names, as I do not want to violate any KS rules, nor do I want to promote anyone without their knowledge.

Working in a pet shop environment on and off for 30 years, I see most people go to a regular Vet. Only after they experience bad results and pay way to much, do they start to listen to the advise that was given in the first place.

Very similar to newbies buying animals based on price A $39 WC ball python is not a value if it will die.

The best advice I can give to anyone, is become an educated consumer. And do it before you spend your hard earned money.
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

-ryan- Oct 19, 2005 10:12 AM

I just bought a baby russian tortoise for around $130...$160 with shipping included (the little guy just arrived this morning ). I consider it a good deal because he was captive bred, and it's a baby, and in seemingly perfect health. I could have just as easily bought a larger WC russian tortoise for only $45, but it was likely to not do so well. Plus I am a firm believer in captive breeding.

markg Oct 17, 2005 02:48 PM

Here is my take..

We largely do not provide reptiles the exact conditions they find and choose in the wild. We approximate at best. We often use substrates that the same herps in the wild would never ever see let alone live on exclusively. As a result, some animals may not handle ingestion well. It could be an animal in an already compromised condition, or an animal that can't pass the material due to temps being too low, etc. In other words, in the wild, no problem. In captivity, on unnatural substrates or in suboptimal conditions, maybe.

Since when have you seen any snake in the wild living 100% of the time on cypress mulch? You never will. So can a snake swallow some cypress mulch and die? I would think it possible.

Let me ask you this.. if you paid $20K for a snake, would you feed it on loose substrate or would you feed it on paper or in another container with no loose substrate? I bet most people would take precautions.

odatriad Oct 17, 2005 03:32 PM

forgive me if I didn't make my initial post clear, I agree with you that cypress mulch is not naturally occurring,nor is any other bark/mulch. I was speaking more along the lines of dirts, soils, sands, clays, loams, silts, etc.
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Treemonitors.com

markg Oct 18, 2005 12:39 AM

You're right.. I was too busy posting opinions. This is a good topic afterall, and I like the discussion thus far.

I raised a few hatchling prairie kings in a mixture of eco earth and some soil. Very messy, but the snakes would burrow into it and hardly show themselves. I kept it moist on about 1/2 the cage and slightly damp and sometimes dry on the other. They did great. No sores or fungus from the higher humidity in the soil. They were able to thermoregulate easily w/o coming to the surface or else barely breaking the surface.

Kind of a fun change from aspen. Oh, and the snakes did swallow some substrate of course. Still strong after 2 years. Maybe not enough time to deduce anything, but they are doing great as far as I can tell.

I did a similar arrangement with mountain kings. IMO they did fantastic with a soil substrate that they could hide in and under. Without keeping it wet, the soil provided protection from the snakes drying out too much. Another fun project that makes me reconsider wood substrates. Again, very messy, but great results thus far. Seemingly healthy snakes with good appetites.

BobS Oct 17, 2005 03:50 PM

I sometimes help out with the folks at the Trailside Nature center in Mountainside N.J. for the last 20 years or so (nice little collection)

They maintain venomous and nonvenomous herps found in N.J. and have been using corn cobs, I think it's been around 30 years without any evidence of deaths due to it. Most of their animals have only passed away from being extremely old and getting tumors and the like. Nothing ever associated with impaction. They sometimes feed the animals directly on a rock to avoid the substrate from going in the mouth but it has occured. All this despite the warning against it in all sorts of books. A lot of herpers have come in over the years and taken them to task for it but being a Govt. entity change is sometimes slow. Low and behold no deaths related to it. Guess they showed us.

What's next? the contoversy over whether color newsprint is really bad? LOL Good luck.

Bob.S

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