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looking for opinions on hypo BRB's

rainbowsrus Oct 17, 2005 06:27 PM

I have the opportunity to expand into the hypo line. And with my existing colony, over several years, could diversify into several seperate bloodlines of hypo's. Any thought's / comments / opinions / ?????

I already have a hypo male and het female coming from Celia Chien and am working on a deal with the originator of the EBV line for a pair of his F3 animals. I'm thinking they are expensive now and by the time I get fully up to speed that the prices will have come down (I'd probably be partly responsible for that being so prolific and all ) but that the hypo's would still command a significantly higher price. I guess my real question is with a significant reduction in price how much pent up demand might be out there with people who could not (or choose not to) afford the current higher prices?
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Replies (12)

rainbowsrus Oct 17, 2005 06:30 PM

Just thought I'd add I like the hypo's and am/will be producing them. Just wondering what I should shoot for in volumes? Many or just a few. Should I develop several semi-unrelated bloodlines (making an army of hets in the process) or only one or two (only a platoon of hets)
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Jeff Clark Oct 18, 2005 05:32 PM

Dave,
...I think this is a really good question. I have voiced the opinion over the years that snakes are not worth thousands of dollars and the morph market has to tumble. The market has continued to prove me wrong. There are thousands of different morphs and the money keeps pouring in and prices have held pretty steady on many morphs. It may be because so many people who have "real" jobs have been successful with so many different animals that they are taking what they make on their reasonably priced animals and investing it in expensive morphs. This could continue for quite some time as the market for reasonably priced pet quality snakes is still pretty strong. I think Hypo BRBs are exceptionally pretty animals and that may be why they have stayed especially firm on prices. However, it seems to me that eventually supply will far outweigh demand and all the money will quit coming in and even these snakes will fall in price. The real question is how wrong will I be and for how long will I continue to be wrong. If the price of Hypo BRBs stays above $1000 for full Hypos and above $250 for hets for another five years anyone who can breed BRBs should be able to get in now and make money on Hypos. Perhaps the morph market will continue to grow and the big money will come to people who have Hypos ready to breed to the next morph.
Good luck,
Jeff

>>Just thought I'd add I like the hypo's and am/will be producing them. Just wondering what I should shoot for in volumes? Many or just a few. Should I develop several semi-unrelated bloodlines (making an army of hets in the process) or only one or two (only a platoon of hets)
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife
>>0.2 kids
>>4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
>>1.1 Ball python
>>0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
>>1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
>>0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
>>0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
>>0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
>>1.0 BCI albino het stripe
>>1.0 BCI salmon hypo
>>0.1 BCI ghost
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

rainbowsrus Oct 18, 2005 06:15 PM

Thanks Jeff, your thoughts on the subject are close to mine, I too believe the market value has to come down sometime as more animals get into the hands of succesful breeders and more offspring become available.

I believe from conversations I've had with the originator of the EBV line that the Hypo's are/have been a little too inbred and look forward to being able to crossing in several unrelated bloodlines. I think this would put me in a great position to not only be able to supply many healthy animals but also to be ready for combining multiple morphs as they become available.

Your comment about reinvesting from normals into morphs is exactly what I'm doing. Nailed that one on the head As you know I had an exceptional year, that's the one and only reason I am able to justify (mostly to myself but to my wife as well) the expense of purchasing 2.1 hypo's and the 0.1 het. The hobby is still mostly paying for itself.

I'll be sure to post some pics when I get them for all to see.

And to all, prepare for an onslaught of hets and hypos from me. I'm planning on producing animals that are only 50% related to the original strain within two generations. First plan is to cross out to at least 4 unrelated strains. Then cross the hets back to produce hypos and 66% hets that are only 50% original lineage.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

wetceal Oct 24, 2005 12:24 AM

That's generally how I see things. I remember when the Hypo BRB's were first put up for sale by EBV (I was working for them at the time doing all their website work). The repsonse was huge. We got a lot of emails about them. However, the price was high on them at $7,000 each. So, none were sold. The next year, same thing. This leads me to believe that at $7,000, the high price far outweighed the demand and that was not a tangible market value.

Now at the current value of $4,000 to $5,000 for the EBV line Hypo BRBs, I see a much greater interest and many more potential buyers. 100% Hets. at $2,500 to $3,000 a pair is also much more tangible. We haven't even advertised these guys for sale on the classified listings and I've already had a few interested people contact me about them.

I think that the Hypo BRBs will easily hold up the pricing scenario Jeff presented. I don't think they will have a problem staying at or above $1,000 for Hypos and $250 for Hets. in the next five years. In fact, I see them possibly holding a little higher value than that. From what I've seen from the Ball Python morphs and Boa morphs, high priced morphs will drop in price as the market changes. With each season, the prices drop a little more until it hits a plateau. Things tend to stick at the plateau for a few seasons before dropping again. Sometimes, the plateau can last several years.

Take Albino Boas for example. Four or five years ago, they were $1,000 and we didn't get any. We said, well, we'll just get them next year when they're $500. Well next year came and they were still $1,000 each and the next year after that and the next year after that. And now here we are five years later and they are still around $800 to $1,000+ each.

Now as the prices of these morphs drop, I believe demand will increase. These are very attractive, beautiful animals. A lot of people love Brazilian Rainbow Boas and many work with them. I'm sure several BRB enthusiasts would like to add a Hypo to their collection. However, not very many can justify spending $4,000 on a snake. But how about $1,000? That's quite do-able for many people. There are very few people buying $4,000+ snakes as pets. However, there are a lot more people that can justify spending $1,000 for a nice pet snake. People spend that much if not more on dogs and cats all the time.

Therefore, when the market reaches a lower plateau, you want to be in the position where you have enough animals to supply the demand.

Another example: Spider Ball Pythons. We purchased a male Spider Ball Python in 2003 for $15,000. He bred for us in 2004 and sired 8 babies, 4 males and 4 females. We sold one male at the beginning of 2004 for $10,000. We sold another male later on in the year for $8,000. We kept all the remaining babies to add to our breeding group. From only selling two males, we had already made more than our initial investment back. Not to mention we just increased our breeding group six times over.

This season, we not only had our original male breeder to work with but also the two males that we held back. We produced 17.15 Spiders. The Spider market took a big hit and prices dropped dramatically. They went down to anywhere between $2,500 to $3,500 for females and $3,500 to $5,500 for males. However, out of the 32 Spiders that we produced, we only have about 10 babies left for sale. We only kept 2 and SOLD 20 Spiders! And these were easy sales too. People would just call up and buy them. If we just use a general figure of $3,000 (which is far less than we sold most of our Spiders for) for 20 Spiders, that's about $60,000 pure profit in Spider Ball Pythons this season. Plus the $18,000 from last season, we've made over $75,000 on the Spider project to date! Not to mention all the future sales. Not bad for an initial $15,000 investment!!

That's where we'd like to be when the Hypo Brazilian Rainbow Boa market starts to come down. I'm not saying we want the market to fall, but when the prices do come down (which eventually they will but hopefully not as quickly as the Spiders did), we want to be in a good position to be able to supply the higher demand.

Anyways, just wanted to share those thoughts...

Thanks,
Celia
-----
Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

rainbowsrus Oct 24, 2005 11:07 AM

Hi Celia, That's what I'm thinking, the price will drop but will always be at a premium compared to regular BRB's. Also one other aspect is the combining of traits as seen in the BCI lines, can you imagine a sunglow BRB. Those that have hypo's will be the first ones able to combine with other morphs as they become available. I also have grand plans to do some serious outcrossing in the next 6 years with the various lines of BRB's I already have to strengthen the bloodlines.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Jeff Clark Oct 24, 2005 01:43 PM

>>Hi Celia, That's what I'm thinking, the price will drop but will always be at a premium compared to regular BRB's. Also one other aspect is the combining of traits as seen in the BCI lines, can you imagine a sunglow BRB. Those that have hypo's will be the first ones able to combine with other morphs as they become available. I also have grand plans to do some serious outcrossing in the next 6 years with the various lines of BRB's I already have to strengthen the bloodlines.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife
>>0.2 kids
>>4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
>>1.1 Ball python
>>0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
>>1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
>>0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
>>0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
>>0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
>>1.0 BCI albino het stripe
>>1.0 BCI salmon hypo
>>0.1 BCI ghost
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

rainbowsrus Oct 24, 2005 04:09 PM

an army of 100% hets for sale in a few years.

May even get started a little sooner, will have to wait and see.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife
0.2 kids
4.12.136 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (OK, I'm only keeping a few of the 136, just tickled pink with my production this year)
1.1 Ball python
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Jeff Clark Oct 24, 2005 01:43 PM

>>That's generally how I see things. I remember when the Hypo BRB's were first put up for sale by EBV (I was working for them at the time doing all their website work). The repsonse was huge. We got a lot of emails about them. However, the price was high on them at $7,000 each. So, none were sold. The next year, same thing. This leads me to believe that at $7,000, the high price far outweighed the demand and that was not a tangible market value.
>>
>>Now at the current value of $4,000 to $5,000 for the EBV line Hypo BRBs, I see a much greater interest and many more potential buyers. 100% Hets. at $2,500 to $3,000 a pair is also much more tangible. We haven't even advertised these guys for sale on the classified listings and I've already had a few interested people contact me about them.
>>
>>I think that the Hypo BRBs will easily hold up the pricing scenario Jeff presented. I don't think they will have a problem staying at or above $1,000 for Hypos and $250 for Hets. in the next five years. In fact, I see them possibly holding a little higher value than that. From what I've seen from the Ball Python morphs and Boa morphs, high priced morphs will drop in price as the market changes. With each season, the prices drop a little more until it hits a plateau. Things tend to stick at the plateau for a few seasons before dropping again. Sometimes, the plateau can last several years.
>>
>>Take Albino Boas for example. Four or five years ago, they were $1,000 and we didn't get any. We said, well, we'll just get them next year when they're $500. Well next year came and they were still $1,000 each and the next year after that and the next year after that. And now here we are five years later and they are still around $800 to $1,000 each.
>>
>>Now as the prices of these morphs drop, I believe demand will increase. These are very attractive, beautiful animals. A lot of people love Brazilian Rainbow Boas and many work with them. I'm sure several BRB enthusiasts would like to add a Hypo to their collection. However, not very many can justify spending $4,000 on a snake. But how about $1,000? That's quite do-able for many people. There are very few people buying $4,000 snakes as pets. However, there are a lot more people that can justify spending $1,000 for a nice pet snake. People spend that much if not more on dogs and cats all the time.
>>
>>Therefore, when the market reaches a lower plateau, you want to be in the position where you have enough animals to supply the demand.
>>
>>Another example: Spider Ball Pythons. We purchased a male Spider Ball Python in 2003 for $15,000. He bred for us in 2004 and sired 8 babies, 4 males and 4 females. We sold one male at the beginning of 2004 for $10,000. We sold another male later on in the year for $8,000. We kept all the remaining babies to add to our breeding group. From only selling two males, we had already made more than our initial investment back. Not to mention we just increased our breeding group six times over.
>>
>>This season, we not only had our original male breeder to work with but also the two males that we held back. We produced 17.15 Spiders. The Spider market took a big hit and prices dropped dramatically. They went down to anywhere between $2,500 to $3,500 for females and $3,500 to $5,500 for males. However, out of the 32 Spiders that we produced, we only have about 10 babies left for sale. We only kept 2 and SOLD 20 Spiders! And these were easy sales too. People would just call up and buy them. If we just use a general figure of $3,000 (which is far less than we sold most of our Spiders for) for 20 Spiders, that's about $60,000 pure profit in Spider Ball Pythons this season. Plus the $18,000 from last season, we've made over $75,000 on the Spider project to date! Not to mention all the future sales. Not bad for an initial $15,000 investment!!
>>
>>That's where we'd like to be when the Hypo Brazilian Rainbow Boa market starts to come down. I'm not saying we want the market to fall, but when the prices do come down (which eventually they will but hopefully not as quickly as the Spiders did), we want to be in a good position to be able to supply the higher demand.
>>
>>Anyways, just wanted to share those thoughts...
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Celia
>>-----
>>Celia Chien
>>
>>www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
>>
>> Celia Chien Photography
>>
>>
>>www.ExoticsByNature.com
>>www.BallPythonMorphs.com
>>www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

raingerjoe Oct 18, 2005 04:21 PM

With the increased number of Hypos produced, the prices of them will definitely go down. How much and how fast? No one can be sure, but the truth of the matter is that they will always be a beautiful choice for a collector and I believe the demand will be there to an extent for these animals. Plus, with morphs like the anery's we have the opportunity to create new designer BRB's,and who knows what other morphs may be on their way with all the breeding that is going on now.

I believe the future of breeding BRB morphs is young and bright and I hope the success you've had breeding regular BRB's carries on into your new Hypo projects.

Good Luck, Jose

DavidKendrick Oct 19, 2005 11:11 PM

Since I don't have the funds to jump into the project, I will just talk about it, I think it would be really interesting for you to buy an Anery BRB, and breed it to the hypo and produce double het GHOSTS!!! What would a GHOST BRB look like??? I bet it would be pretty neat...LETS SEE one of you guys produce them.... Thats what keeps the morph world happy, is seein somethine new...Hypos will drop, thats for sure, but Anery's and Ghosts are the next thing...What do you guys think??
-----
"Life is a Safari"

Jeff Clark Oct 20, 2005 01:05 AM


Dave,
...I think a ghost BRB might look somewhat like this snake but without any red pigment coming through the brown to make that orangish color. It seems to me that if you take away most of the dark in the contrasting markings and all the red or red/orange color you have defeated the purpose of keeping these beautiful snakes. Some of the Boa Constrictor morphs are pretty but some of them are just plain butt ugly.
Jeff

>>Since I don't have the funds to jump into the project, I will just talk about it, I think it would be really interesting for you to buy an Anery BRB, and breed it to the hypo and produce double het GHOSTS!!! What would a GHOST BRB look like??? I bet it would be pretty neat...LETS SEE one of you guys produce them.... Thats what keeps the morph world happy, is seein somethine new...Hypos will drop, thats for sure, but Anery's and Ghosts are the next thing...What do you guys think??
>>-----
>>"Life is a Safari"

DavidKendrick Oct 20, 2005 10:15 PM

Its only a matter of time before someone does it, and I bet they will be "the hot new thing" How long it will last who knows, I agree with your comment, But some of the "Morphs" that are produced to me look uglier than the original, I personally don't like the Hypo BRB's, I would much rather have a normal than a hypo. I also have never seen an adult Anery, But the babies are really nice. I was just throwing out an Idea, As it seems that Morphs have taken over the hobby. I will be posting pics of my new BRB, as soon as he arrives. Thanks
-----
"Life is a Safari"

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