Reptile & Amphibian Forums

how can you tell if a burm is obese? I want to know if i need to slow down my feeding for my burm. hes about 5 1/2 foot and a little bit skinnier than a coke can for the majority of his body. ill post the weight later. he eats a rabbit ever 5-7 days.
thanks
andrew

I wouldn't worry too much about a juvenile burm being obese. I don't even think it's possible -- they seem to convert rodents directly into inches of length.

>>I wouldn't worry too much about a juvenile burm being obese. I don't even think it's possible -- they seem to convert rodents directly into inches of length.
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Yes I do think that is bordering on obese for a juvenile. If anything, it is setting a bad precedent for the animal in the future. It may just be "big" now but a feeding regiment like that WILL lead to an obese animal in the future. Be careful.

PS- Im thinking you already think its obese since you asked in the first place?

But even so,.. people often underestimate length. It could very well be longer than 5 1/2 feet. Also,.. it could be an older snake, thus perhaps stunted and has a more "mature" frame to it. I have seen many shorter snakes that have more age and are "chunkier" as a result, without being obese. But I have never in all my years seen a python fed on a weekly basis become obese as a juvenile. Most particularly a male, as they are much more active and seem to remain a bit leaner than females.

>>Yes I do think that is bordering on obese for a juvenile. If anything, it is setting a bad precedent for the animal in the future. It may just be "big" now but a feeding regiment like that WILL lead to an obese animal in the future. Be careful.
>>
>>PS- Im thinking you already think its obese since you asked in the first place?
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

If its not a juvenile and its around 5-6' (usually length is OVERestimated, not under), then there is some other problem. My point was that overfeeding the animal, now, starts a bad precedent for later in life, if he continues to feed it at such a rate even after the growth rate slows. He will end up with an obese animal. See the analogy below.

Its a simple comparison to the fat children you see running around these days. Do you think that "Derek", the 150lb 10year old will grow up to be a 190lb adult? Not likely. He will end up a 350lb obese adult.

I'm sitting here looking at a coke can. It's less than 3 inches in diameter. If anyone on this forum thinks a 5-6 foot snake with a girth of maybe 8 inches (widest point) is obese, I'd have to say you're smoking crack.

I'd also like to say that you absolutely cannot make the jump from humans and obesity to snakes and obesity. We're talking about natural metabolisms and growth rates. A human born at 7 pounds might be expected to weigh 40 pounds at age four. That's less than 6 times the birth weight and 3 times the height.

A burmese python is equipped to grow from a hatchling length of under 100 grams and 18" to 12 feet and 27 kilos(I'm using examples of wild caught males) in the first four years. That is an increase of 8 times the hatchling length (or more) and 270 times the increase in weight.

I used wild caught examples because this will be on the low end of potential growth. Obviously, females grow faster and bigger. Obviously animals maintained on a more generous diet will grow faster. These are not true of humans.

If you overfeed even an infant child, it will become obese...it's not going to grow 6 feet tall. If you overfeed a baby burmese python, it will grow faster, it doesn't store the fat like an adult animal will. Now, there are skeletal implications when utlizing a high growth feeding schedule, but that's another story.

K. Royer

And to add to this,.. I have witnessed MANY incidences where fat human children become perfectly fit adults.

But I totally agree that it is next to impossible to make a juvenile python (if it is truly juvenile) obese. Enough said.

>>I'm sitting here looking at a coke can. It's less than 3 inches in diameter. If anyone on this forum thinks a 5-6 foot snake with a girth of maybe 8 inches (widest point) is obese, I'd have to say you're smoking crack.
>>
>>I'd also like to say that you absolutely cannot make the jump from humans and obesity to snakes and obesity. We're talking about natural metabolisms and growth rates. A human born at 7 pounds might be expected to weigh 40 pounds at age four. That's less than 6 times the birth weight and 3 times the height.
>>
>>A burmese python is equipped to grow from a hatchling length of under 100 grams and 18" to 12 feet and 27 kilos(I'm using examples of wild caught males) in the first four years. That is an increase of 8 times the hatchling length (or more) and 270 times the increase in weight.
>>
>>I used wild caught examples because this will be on the low end of potential growth. Obviously, females grow faster and bigger. Obviously animals maintained on a more generous diet will grow faster. These are not true of humans.
>>
>>If you overfeed even an infant child, it will become obese...it's not going to grow 6 feet tall. If you overfeed a baby burmese python, it will grow faster, it doesn't store the fat like an adult animal will. Now, there are skeletal implications when utlizing a high growth feeding schedule, but that's another story.
>>
>>K. Royer
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

A 5.5 ft burm "a little skinnier than a coke can" is _not_ obese, and not even close to it. Where do you get this crap?

The problem is that you ALL completely missed my point.

(QUICK! LOOK UP! Theres the point!)

What I was saying is that if he feeds a 5.5' burm a rabbit every 5 to 7 days and CONTINUES this feeding schedule throughout the life of the snake, he will end up with an obese animal, simple as that. I stated several times that he is setting a bad precedent in his feeding routine.
As for whether you guys agree with me or not that a 5.5' (measure that, thats not very long at all) snake that is thick as a can, is obese (more appropriately, on the road towards obesity), thats more opinion than anything. I personally feel it _is_ quickly starting on the road to obesity....YOMV. I keep my animals lean, muscular and never have any obesity concerns.

After all, why would he ask in the first place if he didnt have concerns about it himself?

Genearlly, I think the comparison is accurate. Royer got WAY more specific than I and I did not intend for my example to be biological gospel thesis material, only a similar cause and effect relationship. If you are an obese child, you will be an obese adult. If you are an obese baby snake, you will be an obese adult snake. This implies that the person/snake is continuing the same behavior into adolescence and adulthood that caused them to be an obese child/baby.

You didn't just say it would lead to him being obese. You said, and this is a direct quote, that it is "bordering on obese for a juvenile."

Furthermore, nobody feeds adult snakes as frequently as they do juveniles. Juveniles ARE SUPPOSED TO BE fed more often, which is what he's doing. Assuming that he's going to "continue this feeding schedule for throughout the life of the snake" is just ridiculous.

Ok we agree that we disagree regarding the current condition of the animal. Pics would certainly clarify any confusion.

The size of the rabbit also matters. I would assume it's not particularly large. I would argue (and all snakes are different, so this may not be true). That if this snake were fed exactly the same way and the exact same size of food (small rabbit) for the rest of it's life it would never be obese.

This is why I say this:

A juvenile eating a 2-3 pound rabbit each week makes a fast growing baby. A 15 foot adult eating only 8-12 pounds of rabbit per month might border on too LITTLE food. Heck, I've got an eleven footer that eats two six-eight pound rabbits every two weeks, and she's certainly not obese. Personally, I wouldn't be feeding rabbits at all yet, but that's my opinion.

I was over 150lbs when i was 10 , and I was 280lbs when i was 15 ,, i'm 26 now and i'm 183lbs.
Kind of embarassing , but true.
So , your wrong. I'm wondering what you did your comparison with.
Did you do any study on this at all ?

See the analogy below.
>>
>>Its a simple comparison to the fat children you see running around these days. Do you think that "Derek", the 150lb 10year old will grow up to be a 190lb adult? Not likely. He will end up a 350lb obese adult.
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Seth Mason.
Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?

Did you continue the same habits that got you up to 280 at 15yrs and you just happened to lose 80lbs in the next 10 years? Explain.

No i just got tired of bein a fat as* , Heh.
And my loss of weight isnt the point.
You said :
Fat human kid = Fat human adult
And
Fat Reptile juvinile = Fat reptile adult.
And it's not right.
Most of my snakes will stop eating when they feel there getin fat. and they wont take anything for a month or two ,, i had one go for 6 months without eating ,, he slimed down about 5 or 6 pounds , then started eating again.
It might just be me. But i think they regulate there body weight , even if it's just a little bit.
Then again , i'v realy never had a snake that has been overly chubby.
I'm just leting you know what i see from mine.

>>Did you continue the same habits that got you up to 280 at 15yrs and you just happened to lose 80lbs in the next 10 years? Explain.
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Seth Mason.
Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?

Reread my last post on the topic.

"Fat human kid = Fat human adult
And
Fat Reptile juvinile = Fat reptile adult.
And it's not right. "

I specifically said that if things STAY THE SAME, meaning if you ate 5 Big Macs a day as a 15 year old you would continue to eat Big Macs as an adult.

You guys dont just seem to get what Im saying. Thats ok, Im done with it.

You don't have a point.

The analogy with humans is dumb. Humans control their own caloric intake. Bad habits developed early are hard to break. Pythons do not control their own intake. If they get fat, you feed them less. Problem solved.

...... that you made , not that fact that you over feed a snake , it will be fat. But all snakes are diffrent , My male is 11 feet 3 years old , eats a large rabbit every 7-10 days , most of the time it's 7-9 days , whenever he starts getin jerky around the cage door. And he is far from fat. But on the other hand , My Female eats one , maby two rabbits a month , to my males 4 rabbits a month, and she's not as lean as the male , at 13 feet and 3 years old. So IMO you cant say that Blah # of rabbits a month is to much , when a diffrent snakes takes more than others in rabbits a month as a norm.
And i just have to agree , most snakes under 10 feet , you dont have to realy worry about over feeding , Up to the point of them eating to much and not being able to digest the food already in there belly , and have to poop it out to make room for the new food item , before they have absorbed what they need from it. Because you can always feed them less as they get bigger , but i dont think a popcan sized snake at 5 feet is fat at all , depending on the frame and muscle tone.
That's just my oppinion of course.

>>You don't have a point.
>>
>>The analogy with humans is dumb. Humans control their own caloric intake. Bad habits developed early are hard to break. Pythons do not control their own intake. If they get fat, you feed them less. Problem solved.
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Seth Mason.
Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?

I know I said I was done on this topic but I dont recall insulting anyone or making references to anyone's intelligence?

I should have known I couldnt have a debate with people on this forum without an insult being hurled eventually. Some of you are simply too stubborn to ever CONSIDER other's perspectives. You, mrci, have your head stuck up your "cloaca" so take your insults elsewhere if you cant debate in a mature manner.

I guess its too much to ask for a simple discussion without some "expert" claiming to know everything by way of belittling others.

DiseasedStrain chose to speak intelligently and I appreciate that so that was not directed at you.

>>DiseasedStrain chose to speak intelligently and I appreciate that so that was not directed at you.

Heh , I was wondering when i saw your last post , i was hopeing you wouldnt take anything i said as an insult.
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Seth Mason.
Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?

So what if our opinions sharply contrast with another's opinion. No big deal. I disagree with JDP here in this particular thread with some, (not all) of his points. But I can think of 50 other threads that we both had the same views based obviously on years of herp experience. Plus, not referring to this thread in particular, but just opinions in general, I can think of numerous times over the last 30 years that I was emphatic about a point or opinion and learned later that I had been wrong all along and only then changed my internal "files of fact" to make room for the new data.

One thing that I can think of from about 20 years ago,... I had argued with older herpers diligently and emphatically that pythons only grew for the first 4 years of their lives. Their view was that the pythons can grow their entire 25-30 year lives. I just could not accept this. Simply because I had a 12 foot 4 inch female burmese that was 4 years old and she didn't grow at all for over a year. Yet I had younger females that were longer that still grew rapidly. Based on this limited data and my unwillingness to accept that I had a python that I could not make grow, I concluded that it HAD to be that pythons only grew their first 4 years, and what they reached in that time was what they got to. And so my mind was dead shut against any and all knowledge from older herpers that undoubtedly knew volumes more than I. I stubbornly maintained this theory for some years. I can only try to calculate how much I may have set myself "behind" in my pursuit of herpetological knowledge from that event and probably 100 just like it during my lengthy hard-headed years.

So let's just see if we can all just try to get along a little bit better and try to exchange knowledge and ideas without insulting one another and completely shutting our minds to everything one says that has a slightly different view in a SMALL percentage of his or her posts.

Happy herping guys.

>>I know I said I was done on this topic but I dont recall insulting anyone or making references to anyone's intelligence?
>>
>>I should have known I couldnt have a debate with people on this forum without an insult being hurled eventually. Some of you are simply too stubborn to ever CONSIDER other's perspectives. You, mrci, have your head stuck up your "cloaca" so take your insults elsewhere if you cant debate in a mature manner.
>>
>>I guess its too much to ask for a simple discussion without some "expert" claiming to know everything by way of belittling others.
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I didn't insult you. I said your _point_ was dumb, or nonexistent. If you can't tell the difference, you're the one with his head up his cloaca.

Okay there is one thing to understand in snakes. they get obese from eating too much. If you feed them less, they get smaller. when you feed them less they use their extra body fat to suply them. Its not genetic. Feed more, get bigger...feed less, get smaller.