Reptile & Amphibian Forums

That over the years of breeding the Hybrid creamsicle corn into a large percentage of the corn morphs , the cornsnake keepers and breeders have fogoten about the hybrid factor and are blind to the fact that a big percentage of cornsnakes are hybrids but sell them as pure and they seem to be accepted as pure...
VERY LOUD LAUGHTER HA HA HA HE HE HE because they pull the wool over their own eyes...

Paul..

Creamsicle x Okeetee = hybrid
And
Creamsicle x Reverse Okeetee = Hybrid

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Pinky's taste nice,only if there fresh..

after hearing the views of a number of corn breeders, it seems that many know there is a "touch of this" and a "touch of that" in the cornsnake genepool. There are still some diehard locality collectors in the corn world too, but from what I see, there is a general attitude that cornsnakes are as near a domesticated snake as you can get and as long as hybrids don't contaminate MY genepool (as in kingnsnake, milksnake, or locality corns, etc etc) then it tends to get shrugged off. There is more than just emori in a lot of corn lines - there has been a lot of talk about whether grey ratsnake is in X bloodline, which has been crossed with many other lines by now. And of course the jungle corns that have too much corn blood etc. becoming lost if the fold. I don't think that corn breeders are blinded to the fact that this specie has been tampered with a bit. I just think that there is a tiny bit more acceptance/open-mindedness in the cornworld....? I could be wrong about that, of course.... and if there IS more acceptance on the hybrid issue among corn enthusiasts, it is more out of necessity than anything else (the genepool has already been contaminated, it it too late to change it, and corns are pretty darn cool the way they are .) Also, there does seem to be a different attitude regarding emori/corn crosses vs other crosses. Some people still want to call the emori a subspecie of corn.

The funny thing is that lady who vehemently argued that her cornsnakes have to be PURE with her Hitler-esque views owns root beer corns.Unbelievable!

whats a rootbeer corn? im thinking its probably a corn hybrid that looks brown but whats the other snake in it?
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

>>whats a rootbeer corn? im thinking its probably a corn hybrid that looks brown but whats the other snake in it?
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>>jake
>>
>>my addiction:
>>2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
>>1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
>>0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Hi jake

Some people call cornsnake x great plains rat snake (E. g.emoryi) , a rootbeer.
And also
Some people call Cornsnake x Mexican Cornsnake (E. g. meahllmorum), a rootbeer.

Paul..
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Pinky's taste nice,only if there fresh..

First off, not all Corn breeders have this attitude. Some prefer pure but work with crosses and make a serious effort to be honest about the snakes they're selling. I am one of them and I know others as well. You have a point for sure, but it is more so to the fact that it is not only the Creamsicles....but many other things including Kings and Milks that somehow produced offspring very much so resembling Corns. Try and get a purist to believe that....you will never do it, ESPECIALLY if they work with the morph you are questioning. As with all Hybrids we can't win....as even when it is a fact we represent our snakes honestly the anti hybrid people will come back with how we can be sure the people we sold snakes to will represent thier offspring honestly like we did. So honestly I just don't care. With all the morphs out there and these snakes being bred for pets....I do not let any one elses opinion influence me when it comes to what I want to work with. It's not like we could release captive born offspring into the wild legally anyway...so though I admire some peoples passion to work with pure snakes, purity within the world of morphs is a never ending debate that is not worth much time and effort to defend. Honest representation is something we should all strive for. I personally do not even look at Creamsicles as Hybrids....sure they truly are. But I think the term is much more suitable for Juarassic Milks and Jungle Corns etc. There's a lot more fun as far as the element of surprise within Hybrids. I was working towards Creamsicle Okeetees. I wanted bright orange snakes with thick white borders around the blotches. I got some similar to what I wanted, and a whole bunch more. Check this snake out. NO white around the blotches, and very little on the sides, with that awesome aberrant pattern. Cool huh? Tom Stevens

Hi Tom
Yes i do agree that not all Corn breeders have that attitude
The real reson for my post has been removed from the forum, ie the string of posts where getting a bit to hot i think. i too am very honest about what i keep and breed and wouldnt lead anyone astray by not telling about the genetic line that my snakes come from, beit hybrid or pure strain. its just a few people come on her and dont really know sh#t about what we do but want to trash us all the same...o well. um enough of that.lol.

i dont really look at creams as hybrids either i was just making a valid point that they are hybrid, and a few people that have been avin a pop at us keep roots/ creams so they wasnt very valid in the remarks that they made.

Thats a cool looker you have their, i like the aberrant pattern
breed it back to one of its sibs or parent and it can only get better..

Cheers Tom..

Paul..

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Pinky's taste nice,only if there fresh..

How I made that particular snake and 4 other clutches was a test of sorts for this year. I have 2 females, one Reverse Okeetee and one het Creamsicle and Anery. I used 4 males on each female multiple times. In no way did I exhaust the females, they were very willing... but here is a list of the males
1. Reverse Okeetee unrelated to both females
2. Het Creamsicle and Anery, may actually be a sibling to the female Het Creamsicle and Anery...unsure of that
3. Creamsicle produced by the het pair which is probably het Anery
4. Creamsicle unrelated to the others.
Clutch one from the Reverse Okeetee was 21 Amels, some extremely aberrant, and others that looked like normal Reverse Okeetees and also normal Creams....but very very nice. Mostly red and whites but some very orange with no red...really many many looks withing the clutch.
Clutch one from the het Cream/Anery. NO Amels, 7 Anerys, 1 Snow and many normals.
Clutch two from the Reverse Okeetee, all Amels but this time they were mainly orange instead of red, which is what I was hoping for all along.
Clutch 2 from the het Cream/Anery,1 Snow, a few Anerys, a few Creams, and a few normals.
Now I broke the golden rule of one male to one female so I would know how I got what I got, but my plan all along was to hold some back and breed them to each other. But the thing I want to stress is people will say that after a female is bred they get a plug of sorts in their cloaca which should prevent other males from fertilizing them? I do not think that was the case with these breedings. I can not prove anything, nor will I do this breeding again to this extreme but all in all it was interesting and I did produce oodles of looks within the 4 clutches. People either love these or hate them. I find it amusing how some people make such a fuss as if hybrid breeders are "ruining" this n that. And these Creamsicles....I tell ya they are often shunned on the Corn forum and on this Hybrid forum most probably feel like" why would someone post those here?". Pretty freakin funny....whatever...I love em! Tom Stevens

Thats interesting tom, iv done simular on many occations and found the plug seems to be hit and miss, iv crossed a corn to pueblan then a couple of days later crossed a nelsons to the pueblan and got nelson x pueblan sibs, now you would have thought that you would get corn x pueblan.
done the same on another occation and got the puelacorns, so the plug didnt then did.

i must admit though it is quite rare for this to happen, in my experience anyway. about 70% working plug and 30% not..

creams are pretty cool and you do get some nice colour pop up now and then, i like the really light orange that the can produce..

Paul..
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Pinky's taste nice,only if there fresh..

i know alot of people hate hybrids but why does nobody say anithing about inbreeding? thats why im interested in hybrids they take away all the weak genes that inbred snakes have

i know inbreeding is necessary to make some morphs but i think its sort of wrong to inbreed them for more than a generation is wrong. yeah i know you breed the offspring of a clutch to get both of the parents genes but after that is it really neccessary?

im not trying to start a war just stating my opinion, and i was not talking about anybody in general, just every breeder who has linebred snake
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

i know inbreeding is necessary to make some morphs but i think its sort of wrong to inbreed them for more than a generation is wrong. yeah i know you breed the offspring of a clutch to get both of the parents genes but after that is it really neccessary?

Yes, hybrid vigor is good but you can get the same problems from hybrid snakes that you can with "inbred morphs". In other words inbreeding is not bad unless one passes along certain bad genes. Snakes are different from other animals and inbreeding depression et al has not been proven.

How do you suppose certain snake survive in small isolated rock outcroppings for hundreds and thousands of years? They are inbred but the weaker ones succumb while the stronger ones survive to continue "on" inbreeding. In captivity breeders do not make these selections that nature does. So inbreeding, in itself, will not harm a snakes lineage.

This is one very overated worry. I was interested in some Kings, and I knew where the guy selling them got his stock. So it is safe to assume the guy he got them from was selling him stock already a generation or two from his stock. Now breeder two has them, and he is selling another generation, to people who are breeding and selling those. If inbreeding was as brutal as some people suspect there would be nothing but mutant snakes out there, it is just ridiculous. You do not know until you breed two snakes and see the results, snakes in the wild inbreed for decades...it is no big deal in most cases. Furthermore who is to say the "new" blood you introduce into a project won't ruin a line which was just fine without outcrossing? Tom Stevens

never thought of it that way
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

"It's not like we could release captive born offspring into the wild legally anyway..." here in MO we have what's called a "blanket law" Which means we can have 5 of each naturally occuring species in MO. Meaning I can go out and catch 5 black rats, 5 speckled kings, hognose, garters etc. and can have 5 of each w.c. or not. I talked directly to my counties conservationist in charge of this area and he said that if I bred the wild caught snakes I would have to release all of the babies until I only had 5 of each species. I.E. If I had a w.c. pair of speckled kings and bred them and they laid 10 egs, I would have to release 7 babies. Or 5 babies and the parents. This seems very bad for the ecosystem to me....
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

Wow, that is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing? I thought there was some sort of fear of putting cooties into a wild population? Poor choice of words but since I do not have the facts I figured that would give the basic idea....pollution of a gene pool well established in nature I suppose? Thanks for the info though, makes me wonder about this topic now...
Tom Stevens

It just makes me wonder about what the Missouri Deaprtment of Conservation knows about conservation....Which makes me worry because I am going to college to become a conservationist. Actually it reminds me of a personal story that seems to be a perfect analogy... I had an interview at a local pet shop and told them I could be there herp guy. They said "what makes you think you are qualified for that?" And I said, calmly NOT sarcastically, "Every single one of your snake vivariums is insufficient, they are all under-fed, your rough green snakes don't have a U.V. bulb and you don't dust the crickets so they will develope a bone disease and die...." and their response was the shocker! "Well we don't have the time or money to meet those requirements!" IMO this is basically what our department of conservation is saying. they basically focus on deer, turkey, and fish. WOW, ALL GAME ANIMALS! BTW needless to say, I didn't take the Job at the pet shop!
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

Wow, that really shows how animals are nothing but business for some people. I was a vendor at a show this year, sales were slow, but traffic was huge. Mostly parents and kids just looking around. I talked to I had no voice teaching people just a little about snakes. Over and over I was explaingin why it is better to buy from a breeder, and they seemed to really take it to heart. I HATE to see young kids go into a pet shop and fall for an animal not suspecting at all it may die within a few weeks, and watch the stores just take the cash and send them on their way.,...it is really uncool. I had a customer...first timer come over my house. He says"i am gonna be a breeder". Then he went on to say snakes don't usually live but 6 years and expected his 20 inch cal king to lay eggs next season, not too mention he wanted to breed any king he could get too it? I talked forever with this guy, and it was like talking to a 9 year old....in one ear and out the other. I have a feeling the local pet shop told him he could breed that cal king'next season"...boy we could talk for days about this type of misinformation. I wish I had the funds to open my own store, what someone needs to do is what they do for dgos n cats at the big chains. Have free seminars on how to properly handle and care for reptiles...now there's a good idea. Tom Stevens

I would like to run a little pet shop when I retire. If I ever get the chance, every animal will come with it's own care sheet! I think every petshop should do this!
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

Pretty much all (CB) corn's are hybrid's they have king blood,other rat snake blood,even gopher,bull,pine blood i bet there is't one pure corn in captivity not enless it came strate out the wild then it should be classed as (red rat) not (corn) (corn snake these days mean's hybrid)(red rat sanake is pure (p.g.guttata)and why when people are selling grate plane's x corn do they sell them like this really crack's me up .

okeetee phase £**
amel phase £**
anery £**
creamicle £**

root beer £** (guttata x emoryi)
hypo root beer £ (guttata x emoryi)
ect, creamicle should be hear.

Don Sodernberg can trace many of his corns back to wc and knows exactly what is in them. Not ALL of them are hybrid but I agree that there are more than you think.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

>>Don Sodernberg can trace many of his corns back to wc and knows exactly what is in them. Not ALL of them are hybrid but I agree that there are more than you think.
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Then most likely bred to a amel who's (great,great,grand perant) may have been a creamicle.I don't know/you don't know/not even Don Sodernberg know 100%/.He know that the one's he get from the wild are pure and he's hardly going to breed them to other (WC) as thay would be normal's.A amel going to be the most likely canderdate being (CB) stand's a high chance of haveing (emoryi) blood in it so then the young would have polluted blood there for not pure.

Using that logic you could say that any type of snake could be a hybrid. I know of people (they shall remain nameless) that have sold hybrid grey bands that I am sure got put back into breeding with other grey bands. I also know of some hybrid redtail boas that looked just like regular redtails and I bet that those went on to be bred to pure redtails. Can any one know for sure that any of their snakes are pure? Unless you collected the snake your self from the wild the answer is no. You know how many people sell locality grey bands that are not actually locality? A lot, I know that these are not hybrids but if you are in to locality it can be just as big of a problem if you want pure locality snakes. The fact is yes the corn snake gene pool dose have some hybrid blood in it and yes so dose a lot of other snakes gene pools the only difference is that the corn snake world is willing to admit it and people who breed other snake types are not willing to even listen to anything that has to do with their snakes being hybrids. Now this post is not meant to start any problems but to inform people that this is not just a problem in the corn snake world but is a problem in the whole world of snakes. On a side note I do worry about the whole ultra being from grey rats thing, 4 years ago the mere thought that it was from a hybrid line would have been enough to keep most breeders away, this bothers me because a lot of breeders are crossing it in to all of their lines and if it is proven a hybrid there will be a lot of corns out there that will be hybrids but sold as pure.