Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dudes and Dudettes,
Allow me to teach you a very important word--CHILL!!! This has absolutely nothing to do with temperature, but everything to do with attitude. Raising neonate Corns is not as difficult as some want to make it. There is such a thing as being so intense that problems happen. I have decided to get back into Corns after a few years away. I have 24 neonate Corns (I also have 4 neonate Nelson Milks, 10 neonate Desert Kings, and 4 neonate Brooksi Kings). I have had three of them regurge for various reasons (one had to do with size, one had to do with temp problems and one regurged a meal that it was shipped with. It was serious to me but not the end of the world. I followed essentially what Kathy Love suggests and now all are eating fine. I commend you for concern but I truly believe over-reacting can cause many problems. Corns are tough little guys (wait till you get your first Graybanded King--Joy divine!!! Or a high dollar Green Tree Python!!!) Corns are pretty darn resilient to issues of husbandry. Listen to folks like KJ, Nokturnal Tom, Kat, Kathy, and the rest who have been doing this for awhile. The things your little guys are doing are things seen before; rarely do new things pop up. Relax and enjoy--your new little one will treat you with years of interesting behavior!!!

Pat G-C

PASTOR pat
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Well Im new to the whole snake thing in general. If people would stop giving "newbies" Information that conflicts the other then we wouldn't have a problem. My new corn has calmed down dramatically with a change of substrate while everyone was telling me "only go with paper towels and newspapers", I always had a feeling he wasnt feeling secure. But then a change of substrate and BAM he is slithering about and wants to be handled. I Dont want to seem like I dont want suggestions but in the past people were telling me 3 or 4 different things freaking me out and almost did not want to make me own a snake anymore. But when I took there thoughts into consideration but did things my OWN way then a lot of things became easy. I love peoples suggestions but some suggestions make you question everything you do. Maybe Its just me and I should stop ranting but its not us new and novice snake owners most of the time.

I Dont want to seem like I dont want suggestions but in the past people were telling me 3 or 4 different things freaking me out and almost did not want to make me own a snake anymore. But when I took there thoughts into consideration but did things my OWN way then a lot of things became easy.

That is the answer to why there are different ways to do stuff. One person has a baby snake and is peeking at it five times a day and trying to hold it all the time and the snake is gonna freak out and need more sense of security than if it left alone, checked now and then and left to settle for longer.
I have Children's Pythons that, especially as neonates, make corns seem like they are sedated. Handled wrong they bite and freak and don't eat. Given their space they are fine and great little curious monsters. So, the people giving advice tell what works for them and sometimes they can't be psychic a predict what the new owner is gonna be like.
That is why it helps if the people do as much research as is possible. Read the sites, buy the books.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

Sonya,
Excellent, excellent advice. If I want to keep a certain type of snake I am going to listen to someone who has been successful keeping the particular type and follow their advice. And I listen to many different people and decide what I am going to do based on their advice. I have been keeping herps for 40 years and I still call myself a newbie!!! Novice is OK too. As long as there are critters I have not studied nor kept I will be a novice. The fun for me is in the learning. Jayson, it was suggested to you to use paper towels/newspaper by one of the most successful Pit keepers around on the Pit forum. All of my neonates are on paper. Why? Because I like peace of mind. I don't have to worry about removing the little guys (this can be a stressor!) to another container to feed and then returning them. I can keep the cage more sanitary using the paper. Some time ago I lost two snakes to impaction. I can't afford to lose a 200-300 dollar snake. And I don't care what the bag says. I know that paper is much, much safer. That's what peace of mind is all about. But there are lots of breeders/individuals that use other substrates. Use whatever floats your boat. But when someone who has kept Corns for years, has produced 100's of babies, of all types of snakes, says something I am going to listen. Now, what I am going to do is go CHILL a while!!! Peace!

Pat

this board was created for giving advice and helping each other.
if the suggestions work for you then thats good, if they dont seem to be helping, and you have seen advice from someone else that seemed it might help with your problem, then try that option, as you did with the crushed walnut..... everyone is different.... you like the walnut substrate, i have used it befor and didnt care for it (it seemed to heavy and coarse), i prefer aspen for my corns, it seems to be more light and fluffy and it looks like it is easier to burrow in..... but yet for my ball python i prefer cypress mulch because it hold humidity better than aspen....imo....... also for the feeding all my snakes are fed in a seperate container. keeping snakes is a learning experience, you learn and go from there, the main issue is you get a source of enjoyment from keeping your snakes.

everyone does things differently, just read all the suggestions and make your own desisions
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

>>everyone does things differently, just read all the suggestions and make your own desisions

I think part of what Pat was getting to is that people asking for advice need to think about the source. If I am getting advice from someone like John Cherry, Don Soderberg, etc. who have DONE this for years (and have probably read more articles/books on the subject than I probably even know exist) AND from someone that has 2 pet snakes for a year or so and are repeating what they've READ from a book or two (without really citing that book or anything), then I KNOW who I will choose to listen to. Face it: not everything in every book is correct. It is also not all inclusive.

Why get differences in advice? Well, because these are LIVE animals and they are not all the same! What works for one animal may not work for another (example some eat better cupped, bagged, or left alone in the hide box)! Furthermore, not all set-ups are the same! Some things that we don't think SHOULd make a difference, DO! That is why ALL of us need to remember that were can each learn something new. The day in which I don't learn something new is a wasted day in my life! Take a simple question like how much to feed an adult male corn? Well, the answer WILL depend on age, size, breeding or not breeding, brumating or not brumating, cage size and amount of exercise, actual metabolism of THAT snake, its activity level, temperature, etc. I have found that my breeder males on heat strip with a temp gradient get FAT on what barely holds them steady at a constant temp of around 81F.

So, anyone saying "once a week every week no matter what" is misleading and probably lack experience. Better advice IMO is about once a week adjusting the amount you give it according to as the snake looks (too fat or too skinny). There can be no single black-and-white RIGHT answer for a question like that - too many variables.

Substrate? Well, there should be some rules that are ALWAYS followed - things like no cedar, no high humity stuff, nothing that could bring in parasites, etc. BUT, where to go from there? Want the SAFEST? Layers of papertowel an newspring (no color). Some breeders recommend that because it IS the safest. I don't do that, but I ALWAYS say NEVER feed on the substrate. Impaction CAn result, and occasionally DOES result. How often? Not very often, but enough to where my wife used to see a couple of cases per year when she was treating privately owned snakes. That makes it too common for me, but many OTHER people accept that low level of risk. Sooo, I say don't do it and they say to do it. YOU as the owner MUST make up your mind. In this case, are you going to listen to someone who has seen cases in a vet. setting or someone that hasn't had a problem doing it for a couple of years with a couple orf snakes? Your choice. THAT is another reason for a difference.

Other breeders are more "reasonable" and recommend the SAFER substrates (like aspen), but warn to not feed on it. Some say to NEVER use pinebecause it can harm the snake. That's true IF the pine gets in the water and the snake drinks a lot of the leached out chemicals. Persoanlly, I use pine because i'm allergic to aspen. I have NEVER had a problem, but I don't let the water sit with pine shavings in it. The danger is worse of hatchlings than older snakes. BUT many breeders can't assume that customers will be as careful about the condition of the water as I tend to be, so they must make the call and say "no pine." This is even ANOTHER reason for why opinions vary.

To get back to Pat's point, a lot of stuff done by these snakes does result in stress on the keeper which means more danger to the snake in the long run. With corns, asuming you get them from a healthy source, the FIRST thing to do is relax when something goes wrong. Check the husbandry no matter if you "think" it is good or not, back off on feedings for a few days to let it calm down, offer a SMALLER meal when you do offer food again, and WATCH to see what happens. I've got over 40 CB05 hatchlings (mostly cornsnakes) getting raised up this year alone. Can you imagine what it would be like if i stressed out each time there was any little type of issue (a rare regurg, bad shed, skipped meal, whatever)? Not pretty.

The GOOD thing is that many of you ARE interested in providing the best you can for your snakes. THAT does put a smile on my face. I just hate to see all of the uninformed advice circulating out there on the internet.

Getting the idea? Some of the stuff you pick up over the years of keeping snakes WILL amaze you. At least, I hope it amazes and excited you as much as it has me.

KJ

And now, dear friends, if you have read KJ's post, you know why I listen to him. Life is about choices. I choose to listen to and follow the advice of the experts. Thanks KJ!!!

Pat G-C

n/p

I was contemplating writing a post about this very subject over the last couple of days, but having written similar ones so often over the last several years on this site and others, I just didn't find the proper motivation to do so. Since the motivation has now been supplied, let me offer a few other thoughts to the newer corn enthusiasts among us:

I. There is only ONE hard and fast rule about cornsnakes, and that is that there are NO hard and fast rules about cornsnakes!

I have seen more things being done in "corn-dom" that SHOULD NOT be able to happen...and yet, they happen ALL the time! So, for every "Thou shalt not..." you hear about corns, I can probably show three or four successful keepers doing just that, which was forbidden. Some of my favorite "Rules" are:

You must never handle your cornsnake for 24hrs (or 48, 72, or whatever...) after it has eaten!

You must ONLY use aspen as bedding material!

You must ONLY feed mice to your corns!

You can NEVER breed a female corn that is less than 250g (or 36" long, or three years old, or whatever)!

The list could go on and on...

I am not saying that these "rules" do not provide good guidelines to follow. In fact, for the novice keeper, these probably ought to be seen more as "rules" until they are sophisticated enough in their understanding of corn husbandry to begin to experiment a little outside of the box.

Where I have my problems with the "rules" has to do as much as with those who are spouting them as with the "rules" themselves. More on that in a minute!

II. RESEARCH IS YOUR FRIEND!!!!!!!!!

It has been said by more than one person here that there is conflicting information being given in answer to several questions on the board. Part of that is because of the reality of the first part of this post, and part of it is because of what I am getting to in a bit. However, conflicting information is ONLY a problem if you RELY upon it!!!

It is the job of every keeper of animals to be as informed and educated on the husbandry of those animals as is humanly possible. That includes...but is certainly not limited to...asking questions on this site! Read a book, go to a keeper's home to see first hand what is being done, GOOGLE up some information sheets...do almost ANYTHING to find out how to take care of an animal (preferably BEFORE, but certainly AFTER its purchase), since it will be in YOUR care!

If you rely ONLY on this site's forum, you WILL be unprepared for your animal's needs. That is because this forum is not set up to be the single source of cornsnake information, and even though lots of good things can be found here, those valuable posts are not pinned to the top of the forum for your use. Even if they were, you'd still need help from SOME source to learn how to customize what you read to your own situation.

Research, research, research!

III. The definition of a cornsnake "expert" is: Someone, who has been posting on this forum for more than two weeks longer than YOU have!

Too many people here think that just because someone answers a question being asked, that this means the person offering the answer has any clue at all as to what he/she is talking about, when that is certainly NOT a guaranteed truth!

Here's the basic cycle of posters, folks:

Newbie: New owner, usually (but not always!) someone who has no idea about corns, but thought they'd be "cool" and bought one without any research whatsoever. These guys ask anything and everything CONSTANTLY!

Newbie-plus-two-weeks: These guys are the ones who were asking the questions two weeks ago, but are now endowed with the "rules" they had quoted to them (by previous "newbie-plus-two-weeks" people!). These folks LOVE to answer all of the newbies questions with the "FACTS" they have absorbed through their extensive education on this site.

Newbie-plus-one-year: These people are starting to learn how the system works, and have actually began to think outside of the box. They have gotten past the "newbie-plus-two-weeks" period and are now tired of answering the same questions over and over. They are actually now thankful for the "newbie-plus-two-weeks" people, because they answer most of the questions on this site so the "newbie-plus-one-year" people don't have to!

Newbie-plus-two-years: These are the folks who are breeding for the first time, and have an entirely new set of questions to ask. The difference is that now they ask questions of substance, and they know to whom the questions ought to be directed. Lots of genetics questions involving how it all works, rather then just "what do I get if I cross..." type questions, from these folks.

Newbie-plus-several-years: These are the folks who post the least and have the most to say. They are the ones that usually stay out of the fray unless 1) There is something blatantly wrong being passed off as a "rule" by and "expert" of two weeks, or 2) There is a question asked that really needs a specific answer from someone who has "been there" and "done that." These people tend to fade on and off of this site (and others), because they get a belly-full of all the back and forth that goes on between people in this business/hobby/passion, and may appear to be a "newbie" when they come back after a long absence. One of the most fun things on these sites is to see a "newbie-plus-two-weeks" person trying to correct the writings of a recently returned "newbie-plus-several-years" person!

Newbie-plus-several-decades: These are the only real experts among us. They hardly ever post, unless they are addressed by name. While they are truly busy trying to make money for their families, they usually take the time to answer questions from people here on this site, because they truly care about the animals and those who keep them. While enough good cannot be said about these folks...they are not infallible, and whatever they say does not become the new sets of "rules" to start the process all over again...though that is exactly how some folks here take them. Sad, really...

OK. Notice that everyone listed is a "newbie" of some sort?!? That's because there is ALWAYS something to learn, ALWAYS somewhere to go to for help, ALWAYS some way to become better at keeping these animals we all love! NO ONE has it all down pat, folks...least of all those who have only been keeping these animals for a very brief period of time, and so it is up to YOU to figure out what YOU need to do in YOUR situation with YOUR cornsnakes!

There's lots of people here to help, but that's all it is. YOU still have to wade through all of the posts, all of the books, and all of the "experts" to determine what is best for YOU.

Then...

Come back and tell us what you did, and we'll try not to make more "rules" out of the experience!
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

>>Newbie-plus-several-years: These are the folks who post the least and have the most to say. They are the ones that usually stay out of the fray unless 1) There is something blatantly wrong being passed off as a "rule" by and "expert" of two weeks, or 2) There is a question asked that really needs a specific answer from someone who has "been there" and "done that." These people tend to fade on and off of this site (and others), because they get a belly-full of all the back and forth that goes on between people in this business/hobby/passion, and may appear to be a "newbie" when they come back after a long absence. One of the most fun things on these sites is to see a "newbie-plus-two-weeks" person trying to correct the writings of a recently returned "newbie-plus-several-years" person!

Awesome, awesome, awesome. You know them maybe better than we know ourselves....lol.

>>Newbie-plus-several-decades: These are the only real experts among us.

This list is small, but includes people like Soderberg, Cherry, Zuchowski, Love's, Barcyzk, etc. I'm friends or acquitences with some of the guys in that list. All of the ones I REALLY talk to earnestly would still say they aren't experts - THEY are still learning.

It's funny to listen to Cherry talk about letters from Kauffeld. That old turd's eyes STILL light up when he talks about the "experts" that helped him out when younger. (Was John Cherry ever young? Cindy, of course, still looks like a 21 year old.

>>That's because there is ALWAYS something to learn, ALWAYS somewhere to go to for help, ALWAYS some way to become better at keeping these animals we all love! NO ONE has it all down pat, folks...least of all those who have only been keeping these animals for a very brief period of time, and so it is up to YOU to figure out what YOU need to do in YOUR situation with YOUR cornsnakes!

Wow. Well stated again!

Yo KJ,
Watch that age stuff--Cherry and I are the same age!!!! You're right,though, Cindy does look 21!!!

Pat

Well I have read every single one of your posts and it sounds great and all and I understand that everyone should do things there own way and read up on there own time. But let me say first of all YOU guys are forgetting that there are some people on this board that I have encountered in the few months Ive been here that TRY TO MAKE RULES for snakes even though they aren't herpotologist or probably dont know what the word means. Is it my fault for thinking what they said MUST be done, partially but then again I just want the best for my new snake when it comes home and since many people ARE new to snake ownership (probably more than the people who have been keeping them for decades) its fair to say that "newbs" will probably take on the generation of keeping snakes and making suggestions to others when you guys go.

I dont think its at all fair to label people as newbs because then people are afraid to ask questions and get more oppinions and when that happens It only spells definite trouble for the snake. Again I try to listen as much as possible but dont get mad at us for wanting more opinions even if its been said before and sounds "newbie". I dont even think thats a fair word when it comes to animals becase we all need to learn and ask questions, maybe some more than others but we all do, and newbie should be used with things like technology and such but if we are all "newbies" then take that word away because it doesn't make any sense if everyones a "newbie".

In the end if everyones a "newbie" then EVERYONE deserves to ask questions and then EVERYONE can choose what they want to choose. I dont give a flying duck about who is the elite on these boards and whose popular, unless they have a lot of knowledge and years of experience. Then it makes me feel like I almost have to listen because its the most SENSIBLE thing to do. Maybe this made no sense to all of you but this is through my eyes, the eyes of t3h noob. I love snakes and I dont care if I ask "newb" questions because I'm trying to get the best info to react the best way so yea thats my answer to all of you. And sorry if you felt offended in any way by this post but I had to speak the "newb" truth to ya.

You print off that post of mine, then keep your corns for a few years, then re-read what I have written above, then come back and tell me I'm all wet...

Bet you won't be able to do so!!!!

-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

n/m.
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

n/m
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Paula
31 Corns, 1 BP, 2 Amazon Tree Boas

Have a GREAT day!!!!!!!

ALthough most people on this forum don't know me or have never seen me post, I have been dealing with corns since I was 10 years old (about 25 years now). I have never and never will think I am an expert. I come and go on this and many other forums because I am in and out of the hobby/obsession constantly because I am in the Army. Doing a stint in Iraq and Afghanistan back to back and having to give my entire collection because I was sent to Hawaii just about ripped my heart out. The point is everyone has their own way of doing things. Its in our nature. I have turned to this website and many others to gain knowledge or at least get a clue about what is going on with my snakes. Take it all in and make an educated decision. If it doesn't work, try something else.

HOOOAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Yo,
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your willingness to make this a safer world to live in!!!!! God Bless You!!!!!

Pat

.......
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Nothing wrong with being a newbie - I am a newbie in LOTS of subjects! Always will be when it comes to computers, lol!

I have been keeping and breeding corns a while now and can advise people what (almost) always works for me, what (almost) never works for me, and things that work occasionally. But darn if somebody doesn't come up with something once in a while that I never heard of, or wouldn't have even believed possible until I try it myself. These corns can make a liar out of you no matter how long you do it or how many you have produced!

So keep an open mind - first try what seems logical and has worked for others, and then read, read, read. Then keep trying new things so that once in a while you will be surprised. You will never know all there is to know about these critters no matter how long you try. So keep it fresh and exciting while you continue to learn new things over the decades to follow.

Good luck to all, and remember to have fun with it all!

Thanks for the added info and posts, Kathy.

Its funny, but my wife only hits these forums once or twice a year. She was giggling in her office last night. It just so happened she checked the cornsnake forum, saw I had been posting on this thread, read Darin's post and was laughing. When I walked in to ask what was so funny, she pointed to his post, I recognized it, and she said "Wow! He hit that nail right on the head, didn't he?"

Once again, great post, Darin....and thanks (again) to Pat for being big enough to start this thread. Good topic.

KJ

Hey!!!!
At 275 I'm big enough to start most anything!!!!!
Shalom, Y'all!!!

Pat

Hey,

I already didn't say what I was thinking about the ages - don't make it HARDER for me to bite my tongue!

LOL.
KJ

As a "Newbie-plus-several-years", you've exactly described my involvement in both this board and a couple of others.

I agree with the rest of your comments as well. A very worthwhile post, Darin.

Thanks!

And I think we should pin "The Rules Are, There Are No Rules" at the top of the forum.

very well said! jeff

omg!! best post ive seen in two year!!! WELL SAID my friend!!