Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Im having an argument on another forum that says licensing is a good thing..All reptile owners should be licensed to own even a gecko...Must be 18 and have had a basic herp license for two years to get the next class license to own harder to keep herps(meaning I guess, boas, larger animals)...And of course a special license for venomous....Im against this,,But unsure...

Do we need this to avoid state bans or will this actually increase state to state bans as well as city wide bans, because of the awareness that people might own larger snakes or reptiles.

I am soo worried that one day I will be forced to give up my large Boa just because of some irresponsible idiot out there doesnt take care of his.
We already had a pitbull ban and a friend had to give up her 5yr
old mix breedpit that was very sweet, she was very devastated..
-----
.........
)

We know that many insurance companies won't insure homes with reptiles. What's to stop an insurance company from getting a list of licensed reptile owners in a county through the freedom of information act?

What if some clerk in county/city government sells the list of "larger" reptile owners to a shady character, or to an AR activist?

Katrina

"Must be 18 and have had a basic herp license for two years to get the next class license to own harder to keep herps(meaning I guess, boas, larger animals)..."

What of those herpers that have had these harder to keep herps for far longer than the two year requirement? I have had my Boa since she was 3 weeks old and she is going on 13 years old. Would I get grandfathered in? I don't like the idea of licenses for herps. I can see lists of the herpers being sold to anyone who has the cash to buy it and many herpers losing homes, jobs and possibly kids if they have them.

it will be more protection for us in the long run..As in if I get a license then the city couldnt make an ordinance against reptiles since it was govt. controlled rather then state or city controlled..I agree with both of you completely.I had a rottie and we were turned down for insurance from a few companies finally we didnt tell the last company and got insurance anyway...Also I do have a son who is perfectly capable of owning harder animals because I help him but if the law would protect the majority of reptile owners its better then the laws being so strict noone can own them...Im kinda split on this..
-----
.........
)

No, there would still be local bans and regulations. Its the same as gun laws. In some states, you can get a permit to carry a handgun from the state, but towns can pass laws preventing you from carrying a gun in that town, even though the state gave you a permit to carry it.
-----
MY COLLECTION:
1.0 Columbian BCI
0.0.1 Crested Gecko
1.2 Ball Pythons

MY WISHLIST:
A Northern Blue-Tongue Skink
1.1 nice Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.1 Hogg Island Boas
0.1 pastel Columbian BCI
A Blood or Short-Tail Python
A Dumerils Boa
1.2 Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rankins Dragons
1.3 Crested Geckos
Breeding groups of various Leopard Gecko morphs (including Tremper Giant, Patternless Albino, Blazing Blizzard, and Bell Albino).

Licenses often have number limits. Look at dogs. In most cities/counties you have to have your dog licensed (most people don't, but it is on the books). Many cities now have a limit on the number of dogs and/or cats one household can have, too. So if you license three dogs and you're only allowed two (some city ordinances say so), then BOOM, the city knows you are over your limit. In some cities, animal control makes stops by licensed homes to see how many dogs are in the yard. This is an extreme, and doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

Katrina

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be in favor of a ludicrous law like this. Personally, I don't believe there should be any laws prohibiting the keeping of animals, but at the same time, I understand the need to protect the public from irresponsible morons. This is not much different than what to do with alcohol. Just because some idiots drink and then decide to get behind the wheel, should they outlaw alcohol all together? Why take it away from those that can and do drink responsibly? Guns would be another arguement.
Here's what I feel on this subject. Regulations should only cover reptiles that are potentially harmful to the public. This would include the 4 largest species of pythons, anacondas, large crocodilians, and venomous reptiles. I do not think that these should be prohibited, only that there should be a permit process in place to establish the competency of the owners. Obviously, someone who keeps a 12' burm in a cardboard box with a piece of plywood on top held down by books, would not be a safe or smart owner. The gov't entities that insist on enforcing these regulations need to have someone well educated about the animals themselves and need to leave any personal biases behind. Are accidents still going to happen? Sure. Are seemingly well educated owners still going to make dumb decisions or mistakes? Absolutely. But if they are going to persecute the reptile community as a whole because of this, then they need to ban cars too!
I am currently in the process of working with our county on their reptile ordinances and hopefully I'll be successful in swaying their uneducated and biased thinking on this.

First of all, who do you think the government(I'm assuming you're talking about the federal government) would turn to as their experts? You guessed it, HSUS, PETA, ASPCA, etc., that want all pets to be banned. The general public has no idea what HSUS actually is, and will accept whatever they say as fact. All HSUS has to do is give their little song and dance about how reptiles are dangerous and they can't be cared for properly in captivity, and we'll be ALOT worse off than we are right now.
Secondly, you are operating on the assumption that they would make the law exactly as you said in your post. I can garantee that if they did pass a law for licenscing, it wouldn't be anything like you said in your post. Did you think about how much they'd charge for a liscense? Based on laws that states have tried to pass, it would probably be at least $50-$100 and you would probably have to renew it every year or couple years. Plus they would probably make it so you can only have a couple reptiles per liscense, or only a couple reptiles period. And do you really want the federal government to have the power to liscense pets? Think about the precedence this would be setting. If you have get a federal liscence to own a gecko or a cornsnake, whats next? Federal driving liscenses, national ID cards(they're already working on this one), federal liscenses to buy a home or car? Plus if a state or town passes a law banning or restricting large snakes or other reptiles, at least you have the option of moving, plus it won't effect most of us. If the federal law bans or restricts them(chances are it will), thats it, no more reptiles period. And they would also probably make it so they can come and inspect the caging, etc. anytime they wanted. As someone already said, it would be almost impossible to get homeowners insurance or an apartment if what you had was public record, or if somebody got the list illegally.
Legal aspects aside, its still a bad idea. If you had to be 18 to own a gecko or cornsnake, and 20 to own boas, pythons, etc., there goes the industry. At the show I go to, at least 25% of the people there are under 18, and alot of the other people are in their 20's. Who do you think buys normal leopard geckos, cornsnakes, etc., from petshops and shows? Alot of them are teenagers or parents buying them for their kids. Some kids could still get them if their parent gets a liscense, but most kids(me included) are lucky if their parents will let them have reptiles, much less spend the time and money to get a liscense. I'm 17 and I have 3 Ball Pythons, a Columbian Boa, and a Crested Gecko. I've had 2 of the Ball Pythons for close to 3 years. If they passed a law like this before I turned 18, would I have to get rid of them? And alot of people who are into reptiles got started when they were teenagers, which would mean in say 10 years, there wouldn't be as many breeders or buyers. Plus most casual hobbyists who just have a couple geckos or a bearded dragon or something can't or won't pay to get a liscense.
-----
MY COLLECTION:
1.0 Columbian BCI
0.0.1 Crested Gecko
1.2 Ball Pythons

MY WISHLIST:
A Northern Blue-Tongue Skink
1.1 nice Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.1 Hogg Island Boas
0.1 pastel Columbian BCI
A Blood or Short-Tail Python
A Dumerils Boa
1.2 Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rankins Dragons
1.3 Crested Geckos
Breeding groups of various Leopard Gecko morphs (including Tremper Giant, Patternless Albino, Blazing Blizzard, and Bell Albino).

regardless of what is fair and what is not fair, something has to be done about the problems. We have to start on our end of the fence before we can ever try to take on PeTA or the HSUS or ALF or IFAW or any of the others. We are very limited in what is protecting our "rights" but more properly called a "privilege".

In the exotic animal trade (or any other pet trade for that matter) there is some work that needs to be done. We need to clean this up! These kids that you speak of are not always just getting harmless animals like geckos or bearded dragons. They are buying Burmese Pythons and Alligators because it makes them look cool! When it gets too big then they dump it on an animal rescue like it's nothing. Dogs and cats are running around like crazy because people turn them loose or when they get loose they could care less and just say, " Screw it, they will come back!". Venomous snakes are so easily obtained it is absolutely ridiculous. The snake gets loose and runs a possibility of biting someone or it bites the owner because he wasn't skilled enough or wasn't using proper handling techniques. Many of these idiots FREE HANDLE them just because they look cool doing so. People allow their Tigers and everything else to have too much freedom and are trusted entirely too much. The deaths and injuries as a result of private possession of them might be negligent, but do you think states are going to except that? Some of the attacks by Tigers were done at USDA approved facilities!
AR Groups use this information against us every chance we get. We continue allowing breeders of Burmese Pythons and other Large Constrictors. Alligators are still sold at 50bucks a pop! Venomous snakes are cheaper than ever and very easy to obtain. Most of these idiots will pay top dollar on the snake and skimp on the enclosure the snake is in! These are the problems with our hobby. Our hobby is uncontrollable! Is it fair that an animal be held in a captive setting by people who really dont care or want to learn how to properly care for the animal? Is it fair that you have animals that will have to spend the majority of their lives in a "rescue" or get euthenized because it can't find a home? To humans...animals are easily dispensable. We just get them and throw them away like they are yesterdays news. I am not saying that it is all of us. Many of us are very responsible and caring owners where our animals will live long happy lives. Others are just here because they are somewhat interested but could really give a rats ass(no pun intended) about the animal in the end.
Before we start blasting AR groups about what they do or dont know and what bridge they can jump off of as a result, I think we need to start on OUR side of the fence. Otherwise, it only makes us look worse. Is it fair? Perhaps not. But unfortunately, if we are unable to enact a solution to the problem, third party sources will have to do it and then that is where it bites us in the asses.

- First steps: Limit Breeding of animals that donot qualify as very good beginning animals or animals that are just simply unsuiteable for private captivity.
- Educate the general public about reptiles and help them understand that humans are in no way in any grave dangers because their neighbors keep a python as a pet.
- Support the Zoonotic diseases list and make sure that it is recognized when health issues regarding exotics arise.
- Try to find homes for the animals that are in rescues before recommending a freshly hatched animal.
- Promote ALL captive breeding and do our best to end wild caught importations other than for captive breeding and restoration efforts.
- Promote extensive research regarding proper husbandry of reptiles and other exotics.
- Try to keep government is far out of this as possible! Once you let them in, you can't get em' the hell out!
- Promote antivenin banks for venomous animals and accidental bites
- Work to correct the misinformation that AR groups continuously blab about and FIGHT THEM TILL THE END!
- Do capture and relocation efforts of exotics that were wrongfully turned loose into the wild in areas where they donot belong.

We have to build some credibility. As of right now, we have very little. I think the above can help us start.

Chris
-----
Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

I guess I went off on a rant and forgot to mention, I do think there should be a permit system for burms, retics, rock pythons, amythestine pythons, anacondas, venemous that are dangerous to humans, and crocodilians. However, I think it should be on the state level, and it should be modeled after Florida's permit system, not like some states where you have to do and apprenticeship and all kinds of other stuff to get a permit.
-----
MY COLLECTION:
1.0 Columbian BCI
0.0.1 Crested Gecko
1.2 Ball Pythons

MY WISHLIST:
A Northern Blue-Tongue Skink
1.1 nice Jungle Carpet Pythons
1.1 Hogg Island Boas
0.1 pastel Columbian BCI
A Blood or Short-Tail Python
A Dumerils Boa
1.2 Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rankins Dragons
1.3 Crested Geckos
Breeding groups of various Leopard Gecko morphs (including Tremper Giant, Patternless Albino, Blazing Blizzard, and Bell Albino).

In floria, you do have to have an "apprenticeship" like training before obtaining a permit to own venomous or crocodilians. 1000hrs minimum for either. There is no permit system for large constrictors.

Chris
-----
Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com