Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First, This exercise is to help all of us understand eachother. It may also help us understand much of the information in those papers you site. Please understand, this is not about right or wrong, just to gain a common understanding of some simple terms.

Consider, if we have different meanings for the same basic words, then we will never understand eachother or the snakes.

I am going to ask a few simple questions, and all I want is a few simple answers. Please make it brief, and do not mish mash the questions together, just answer each question. Theres only a few.

Lets start;
what does the term active mean, in the context of snakes?

What temps do snakes live at?

Remember please keep it simple.

Also let me restate this, in the past you and others, formed opinions on lack of data/information. You stated this or that, because of what you didn't see. With that in mind, when you didn't see the snakes, what were the snakes doing? Please be scientific, that is, in order to answer that, you must have proof of your answer. Please do not speculate or theorize.

Thank you for participating and I hope this will help clairify our conversations. Cheers FR

Please be scientific, that is, in order to answer that, you must have proof of your answer. Please do not speculate or theorize.

Science doesn't prove anything. In fact, the best we as scientists can do is formulate theories that are supported by data.

Therefore, the theory of gravity has never been proven. I still sleep OK at night.

I know that wasn't your point, just a pet peeve. I don't like to see people misrepresent science.
-----
Chris Harrison
Central Texas

I guess science takes things out of context too, hahahahahaha sorry, had to do it.

In this case, there is an answer, if they were not where he was looking, they were somewhere else. But he or they, did not find them and see what they were doing(hibernating/brumating) or not. They just assumed because they were not where they looked, so they were hibernating. You cannot say what they are doing without observing them doing it.

In many cases, snakes have summer ranges and within that range they have a much smaller winter range. In the fall they move to the winter range, which may or may not include hibernation/brumation. So, if you are looking for them in their summer range, and its not summer. You get the picture. FR

>> Lets start;

>> what does the term active mean, in the context of snakes?
>>

In the Gibbons article they defined the term "activity" as any movement of an individual snake from one location to another.

I have always considered a snake active if it was not hibernating or aestivating.

>> Where do snakes live?
>>

In general, snakes live in the ground, but when active can be found in many different places.

>> What does behavior mean when applied to snakes?
>>

Behavior can apply to many things. I learned about feeding behavior, mating behavior, defense behaviors, etc, in my ecology classes, but I consider anything a snake does as a type of behavior.

>> What temps do snakes live at?
>>

Snakes live at temperatures between freezing and about 100*F, but some temps are a lot better for them than others, of course. Most colubrids prefer temps bt. 70 to about 85*F, in my opinion, but they are active at other temps. Consider the fact that different snakes have different metabolisms too, and some snakes need pretty high temps to be able to digest.

>> Remember please keep it simple.
>>
>> Also let me restate this, in the past you and others, formed opinions on lack of data/information. You stated this or that, because of what you didn't see. With that in mind, when you didn't see the snakes, what were the snakes doing? Please be scientific, that is, in order to answer that, you must have proof of your answer. Please do not speculate or theorize.
>>
>> Thank you for participating and I hope this will help clairify our conversations. Cheers FR

I tried to keep it simple. Try to respect my honesty.

I'm not sure what opinions you're talking about. For the sake of conversation I'll assume you mean my saying the snakes in AZ aren't active in the winter months. I'll admit my opinion was biased because I had never heard of any "continuously active" snakes, but I was also going by my knowledge of the winter temps in AZ, and the fact that I had seen a number of brumating species of snakes (I use the term brumating now to describe inactive snakes, since they are no longer seen as true hibernators.)

I think we had immediate problems because of the terminology. I tried to rephrase my statement from "active" to "active period", a term I've always used to describe the active time of the year, as opposed to the time snakes are brumating, but our problems escalated anyway. I don't want to argue or fight. I believe you see snakes all year 'round, and I'm hoping some of those species are what I would consider "continuously active". ASAMOF, I'm quite interested in your research. I plan to do some research of my own in AZ someday. I hope that helps.

Thanks for listening....TC

Found this little sand snake in Green Valley last March...

I look forward to reading what you guys discuss, but damn that snake is beautiful! Tom Stevens

Thanks, Tom. That snake was one of our better finds last March while on Spring Break

Terry

This has been one of the most interesting threads I've ever read! Lots of good stuff, and i always knew that snakes were seeing me and I just wasn't seeing them! LOL! What I wouldn't give for a pair of x-ray specs! Does anyone else ever have that feeling that when you are in the field you just know there is a snake close, but you just can't locate it? I can almost hear them laughing at me sometimes!
Todd Hughes

With your answers, I can now comunicate with you on common ground and it will surely help our understanding.

What is active?
To be active is to participate in lifes functions, which includes many many things. And includes what you mentioned. I agree the exception to this would be true hibernation, a state of inactivity. Aestivate is a useless term. It simply means the surface is to hot for use, it has nothing to do with the snakes life events, normally this occurs here(southern az.) in the season of reproduction. Most of our snakes are gravid at this time. So to equate it to hibernation is very much in error.

Where do snakes live?

You said, in the ground, perfect, some do, others live in hollows in trees, rocks, crevices, etc. Two words are key here, live and in. They live in, Not necessarily on. Again this answer is perfect for our conversation. They live in the ground/something, yet most understand active as being only above or outside the something. Or when they are in the "something" they are "not" active. This confuses me. The reality is, they are active both inside and outside their perferred living substrate.

Many species leave the comfort of "in" in order to secure food. Like waters and garders. Surely most snakes are somewhere inbetween.

Behavior
Behavior is the act of doing what they do. This includes many many task driven and genetic driven behaviors.

Temps
In my experience snakes can be active with a IBT(internal body temp) from 45F to an upper limit around 100F. Of course they can exceed these for short periods of time, but long periods will cause physical damage.

The purpose of my last question is very important, you and others seem to base many of your opinions on what "you/them" do not see. You must understand, to not see something is lack of data. This is not to form conclusions on. It should merely be impedus to investigate. As in, where are they when they are not where you are looking, they surely are somewhere. Then if you find them you can determine what they are doing. What it appears is commonplace is. Forming conclusions of lack of evidence and not the real evidence. Please understand, academics can do this and do this commonly. Please understand, most are no different then you and are highly prejudiced(please question what I mean by this statement)

Now about you papers, scientific papers do contain good material. But you have to understand how they work. In the paper you sited(shuette and holycross) They stated mohaves are active during a certain time period, I believe from their data that is absolutely true. What that means is, they found them in those months. But it does not exclude activity in other months, they just did not record that for some reason. Those reasons can be for varied. Such as the time period the permits are good for. The time period the grant is good for. As I mentioned, University obligations often over ride field work. So please learn to understand, they normally do not publish data that did not occur. But they never intended to insinuate their data was all inclusive.

With the above aggreements, lets try and understand how snakes live underground and how surface temps effect these behaviors. But that could be for another day if your interested. Thanks FR

>> The purpose of my last question is very important, you and others seem to base many of your opinions on what "you/them" do not see. You must understand, to not see something is lack of data. This is not to form conclusions on. It should merely be impedus to investigate. As in, where are they when they are not where you are looking, they surely are somewhere. Then if you find them you can determine what they are doing. What it appears is commonplace is. Forming conclusions of lack of evidence and not the real evidence. Please understand, academics can do this and do this commonly. Please understand, most are no different then you and are highly prejudiced(please question what I mean by this statement)
>>

I would like an example of something someone said along these lines, so I can respond better to this. I think you're referring to the problems with understanding winter activity, a slow down of activity vs. brumation. Many of us lack information of continuously active snakes over winter, so assume they are brumating. This is what we need to make clear here, right? The bias is in the long history of the literature referring to snakes "not seen" as being inactive or brumating. I don't think there's a whole lot of documentation of observations of winter activity, but hopefully that will change.

Please explain, also, what you mean by highly prejudiced. Is that similar to biased? Gotta go to work and won't be home til late. Talk more later....

TC

There is a long history of a misguided assumption that snakes are hibernating, when in fact they are participating in active life events.

If you consider, snakes can be active from 45F and above, then you must take winter snakes body temps and see what they are. If they are above that lower limit, then of course they "can" be active and not hibernating. So finding winter homes is important.

As a common example, snake dens in the north are well known. I will ask a few questions about these.

What is the temperature down in the dens where the snakes are during periods they are not on the surface?

In these hiberniculum(dens) What size individuals occur there? Adults? Babies? Subadults?. Consider, when you say "they" you are referring to a species or all snakes and its entire population, which includes all sizes and sexes.

I asked, where are the neonates? In my experience they are rare in dens or hiberniculum. In order for a population to maintain health, it must include neonates. So the average population does include a high percentage of neonates, again, where are they.

As a example, if you take timber dens, there are very few neonates, yet come spring, neonates are very common. Another example, gardersnake dens contain very few neonates, yet come spring/summer, they are everywhere. Where were they during the winter?

Dens are not for hibernating, they are social/reproductive events. Adults gather to be in close proxcimity to eachother. Also, you will find that the adult females in these dens contain enlarged ova or embryos. They are developing these during the winter, so how can that be called hibernating?

To clarify, snakes seek dens to maintain activity. Places of elevated temps, longer sun exposure, etc. The parts of the population that have no need to maintain activity do not go to dens, but instead, hibernate right in their summer ranges.

Consider, snakes seek temps from the 50'sF to 60's as a non elevated temperature, on a normal all year long basis. So I ask How could it be called hibernation in winter when they seek the same temps as in summer? How can it be called hibernation, when is fact they are participating in active reproductive processes?

Of course in spring/summer/fall, when foods availible, they must elevate their temps to accomplish such tasks as digestion.

So, in my research I find individuals of nearly all species are active year a round. But in northern and southern areas, some individuals hibernate if they have no reason to stay active(pairing,ova,embryos)

And of course, you do not have to live in the south to see this. Just stand by a snake den and ask questions. Not asking the papers or me, but simply question what you see.

Lastly consider, the colder(north,south) the area, the more limitations are placed on reptiles until they no longer exsist. Once they cease the ability to maintain a minimum amount of winter activity, they no longer exsist.

When you do move to green valley, you of course will continue to hunt the Mt. hopkins road. On the northeast corner of where that road meets Agua Cal. Rd. there is a large cave. Please check the temps in that cave, check them winter and summer. Consider, that cave is west facing and at 4800 ft elevation. Care to guess the temps? Also please take the temps from the surface down. You will learn alot. Also there is a cave on the otherside of the Ritas, Onyx cave, its located at 6300 feet and is east facing. Care to guess those temps. Consider, caves have a consistant temp, year a round. More later. Thanks FR

There is a long history of a misguided assumption that snakes are hibernating, when in fact they are participating in active life events.

If you consider, snakes can be active from 45F and above, then you must take winter snakes body temps and see what they are. If they are above that lower limit, then of course they "can" be active and not hibernating. So finding winter homes is important.

As a common example, snake dens in the north are well known. I will ask a few questions about these.

What is the temperature down in the dens where the snakes are during periods they are not on the surface?

In these hiberniculum(dens) What size individuals occur there? Adults? Babies? Subadults?. Consider, when you say "they" you are referring to a species or all snakes and its entire population, which includes all sizes and sexes.

FR, remember I’m in MI, not KY or s. OH, etc. We only have massasaugas here and not timbers or copperheads. I do have some knowledge of dens, however. I’ve never studied caves, but I would consider them to have a rather constant temp in the 50-60*F. range, similar to the level underground snakes go when trying to maintain a safe body temp while at rest. In MI we have what we call snake dens, or hibernaculum, but they normally are not caves.

In the dens that I have observed, they normally only have adults in them. I have observed massasaugas, Eastern garters, E. milksnakes, blue racers, and Eastern fox snakes coming out of and hanging around dens in the spring.

I asked, where are the neonates? In my experience they are rare in dens or hiberniculum. In order for a population to maintain health, it must include neonates. So the average population does include a high percentage of neonates, again, where are they.

As a example, if you take timber dens, there are very few neonates, yet come spring, neonates are very common. Another example, gardersnake dens contain very few neonates, yet come spring/summer, they are everywhere. Where were they during the winter?

Dens are not for hibernating, they are social/reproductive events. Adults gather to be in close proxcimity to eachother. Also, you will find that the adult females in these dens contain enlarged ova or embryos. They are developing these during the winter, so how can that be called hibernating?

To clarify, snakes seek dens to maintain activity. Places of elevated temps, longer sun exposure, etc. The parts of the population that have no need to maintain activity do not go to dens, but instead, hibernate right in their summer ranges.

Consider, snakes seek temps from the 50'sF to 60's as a non elevated temperature, on a normal all year long basis. So I ask How could it be called hibernation in winter when they seek the same temps as in summer? How can it be called hibernation, when is fact they are participating in active reproductive processes?

I ask you to remember that winter in the north is different than winter in AZ. Snakes may be seeking temps in the 50-60* range, but if the ground can’t maintain that during winter, then the snakes have to go lower. In some areas there may be caves that can maintain those temps and crotalines may seek them out, but where those situations aren’t available there’d have to be another way for snakes to get through winter. If the snakes went through winter in an area where temps didn’t go below the 50-60* range, then I’d say, yes, they were active below ground. I would expect mating would depend on the species. Some snakes mate in the fall, some probably during winter, and some in the spring.

Of course in spring/summer/fall, when foods availible, they must elevate their temps to accomplish such tasks as digestion.

So, in my research I find individuals of nearly all species are active year a round. But in northern and southern areas, some individuals hibernate if they have no reason to stay active(pairing,ova,embryos)

And of course, you do not have to live in the south to see this. Just stand by a snake den and ask questions. Not asking the papers or me, but simply question what you see.

Lastly consider, the colder(north,south) the area, the more limitations are placed on reptiles until they no longer exsist. Once they cease the ability to maintain a minimum amount of winter activity, they no longer exsist.

I assume by the last sentence that you mean, they must keep their temps above freezing, which is what will kill them. That’s confusing me a little. Snakes must survive winter, but after that what limits their survival, or northward extension, is the ability to reproduce, or have enough time to produce young the following year.

When you do move to green valley, you of course will continue to hunt the Mt. hopkins road. On the northeast corner of where that road meets Agua Cal. Rd. there is a large cave. Please check the temps in that cave, check them winter and summer. Consider, that cave is west facing and at 4800 ft elevation. Care to guess the temps? Also please take the temps from the surface down. You will learn alot. Also there is a cave on the otherside of the Ritas, Onyx cave, its located at 6300 feet and is east facing. Care to guess those temps. Consider, caves have a consistant temp, year a round. More later. Thanks FR

I would expect the caves have a temp range of 50-60* year ‘round as mentioned above. I’m sure the crotes use these caves. I will check on it when I have the opportunity next. Thanks.

TC

for my use of caves as an example, it was not meant for you to think snakes used them(they don't normally) but instead a method for you to understand the mass temps of the earth in areas they pick. A cave's air temps is a direct reflection of the mass around it.

This may be a shock to you, so after you read it, sit down and think. But please, think not rationalize. Which is what your doing now.

As fact, Agua Caliente cage(around where your green rat came from) is 80F year a round. 80F not 50 or 60F, do you understand this? Onyx cage on the other side of the mountain is higher and at a opposite sun angle. Its 72F year a round. Remember its at 6500ft or so.

With that in mind, if our snakes went to far down, they would increase their heat. That is, by going down they would reverse winter and get hotter.

I could go on and on, but you would still rationalize every little straw to can grab on to. So for today, I will leave you with this. Your snakes(in your area), my snakes(in my area) and snakes for all over the world, require about the same range of temps. This has been proven in captivity a billion times over. They all can and do live and progress and achieve life events in a very small temperature range, from the mid fifties to the mid ninties, give or take a few degrees. With that in mind, don't you ever think all these snakes are seeking the same in nature? don't you think, once nature exceeds these ranges, that they all will fail?

You seem to want them to all be different, they are not, whats different is behavior on how and where they go to get these uniform requirememts.

By the way, another mohave last night around my monitor cages and one the night before crossing the driveway(a neonate) but consider, it was nearly 90F yesterday. Hmmmmmmm where are those authors? FR

It appears to be a ground snake, of the genus sonora. Still a great find. Congrats and nice pic. FR

Thanks. I'll have to get back to ya tomorrow on the discussion. Check out the rostral dividing the internasals on the snake. That's why I picked sand snake.

TC

It is a Sand snake.

Kerby...

Its not a sand snake, Chionates(SP)occipatalis. Does on occur there and the red is bordered by white/creamish.

I did forget about our little buddy, Chilomanistis(sp) which does occur there and in my yard.

But its a little different colored then the individuals in my area. But yes, I forgot about them and they do not require sand, Which is why I totally thru out the name sand snake. Why they are called a banded sand snake is beyond me as they commonly occur in areas like where I live, hardpack, hardpan, rocky, etc. As opposed to what "sand" snakes require, you know, sand. hahahahahahahaha Sorry.

It does have a goofy nose for a sonora, but they also occur there and can appear in that color form. Thanks Kerby

Here are a couple of Sonorans from my yard up here around "Mayberry"

Quite variable to say the least. I haven't photographed all the color phases yet.

Kerby...

Kerby...

Consider, chilominiswhatever(banded sand snake), has solid orange bands, not lite on the sides.

As I said, his has a oddball nose scales, but that does happen. Thanks FR

Is the solid black markings. Most ground snakes have faded black markings (I know that Ground snakes are quite variable) and the Sand snake's black markings are more solid (like someone painted them on with a brush).

I know that color is not a good key, a good top and side shot of the head would convince me the difference between a Ground snake and a Sand snake.

Gotta go have lunch in Prescott, might even stop and herp at Willow Lake on the way back.

Kerby...

Remember, Chilo's have a short blunt face and body. FR

as he pointed out the rostral separates the internasals. Although not as variable in Az. as it is in Baja (which is why it is now known as the "Variable Sand snake" (Chilomeniscus stramineus), there is still considerable variation in Az. The ground color is actually white with varying amounts of orange varnish in the interspaces depending on locality. In the Phx. area for example the snakes tend to only have orange dorsally but are white on the sides and I have even seen snakes lacking orange entirely. The snakes I grew up with in my yard in the Catalina foothills had so much orange that they appeared to be solid black and orange. Number and width of bands seems to also vary with locality.

Gotta say this has been a very interesting thread, I have been really enjoying it. I would just like to say that I think herpers (and scientists) in general have gotten too much in the habit of thinking everything must fall into certain parameters and no longer think outside the box. The thing I hate the most about modern science (especially when applied to life sciences) is "Statistics" Nowdays statistics seem to be looked at as the end all, but there is no way that one could say that mojaves are only active from April thru Sept. just as you cannot say all humans get up at 0600 and go to bed at 2200 hrs. Each locality is different for any given species, and then the individuals within on locality are all different just as we are all different people.

As far as the activity subject goes, I agree with Frank and I think every one should realize the difference between "active" and "surface active" . I remember reading that during his study on rosy boas, Brendan Mcgraw found that his boas moved considerable distances each day througout the winter, and completely underground. I think that I have probably seen at least 75% of Arizonas snake species active somewhere at some time during the winter. I have seen most of the crotes basking, Rhinocheilus, cal-kings, Trimorphs etc. all moving in daylight at temps in the 40's and 50's in December and January. I have seen triaspis, hopi rattlesnakes, cerbs, wandering garters and alligator lizards crawling in the snow. I don't know if either of the terms "hibernation" or "brumation" are really applicable anywhere. I cool my snake for four months at anywhere from 40F to 55f depending on the species. I have even kept pyros all winter in the 30's. All my snakes still drink, move, grow and shed. I even had a rosy boa give birth during winter cool down. The only thing the snakes don't do is eat, simply because temps are not sufficient for digesting. How can we even begin to guess what thes snakes are doing underground during winter, even at the most northern latitudes. My favorite saying, which I have posted before on the crote forums is "the more I learn the less I know" Again, Great thread!

Rich

the only thing "MY" snakes don't do during winter cooling is eat. Snakes in the wild definately eat during the winter if temps are sufficient. It is not at all hard to find a lyre snake with a food bolus hanging out of a crack during mid winter for example.

I have only seen orange and black types, from here, west tucson, to northern sonora. Thanks FR

Habitat I found the variable sand snake in....

More shots of the snake...


Notice how small it is. Chilomeniscus is a small snake, and this one looks like a juve, but was probably from the previous year's hatch, imo.