Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok, ive been reading all of the posts about using acrylic and water based sealers and paints...i still have found no definite answer to what to use..im building a cage out of plywood and i cant decide what to use on it...thanks in advance for the replies...have a good one..oh yeah the cage is going to be for either boas or ball pythons..and it is 6'h x 3'w x 2'd and has three levels....
-----
0.1 normal redtail boa
1.0 true redtail boa
1.1 100% het for albino redtails
1 miami red phase cornsnake
1 baby sulcata tortoise
1 snow corn

There is no definitive answer, likely never will be. There will always be tradeoffs between the following:

1) cost

2) appearance

3) toxicity concerns

4) ease of application

5) longevity of the product in specific reptile environments

Nobody can answer that for you except for you. We can help you make that decision if you let us know how the above tradeoffs matter to you.

For a ball python I'd say a water/acrylic based sealer would be fine if you had a plastic floor. For boas, it might work but you may very well have to redo the cage every couple of years.

as i often do, i agree with chris. however, from experience as a painter, if you can allow for the air out time i would go with two coats of an oil base. both products essentially do the same but oil will last much longer. there is nothing wrong with a water based product. infact most water based products you will be able to get a good amount of coats on in a day and the more coats, the longer lasting better protecting finish.

Of course Chris is correct in his statements but I felt to add comments on the product I am happy with. I am currently using a product called Varathane and am using there Water Based Outdoor product. I really like working with it one becuse its water-based its a gem to clean up, and two like Jay mentioned you can literally add another coat every hour. Granted I use this product for face fronts only due to the fact that white melamine is plain and sterile and who needs that in a cage. However it has held up extremly well in its position for greater than the melamine itself. If it wasn't for another product Chris and I have discussed I would probally do a test for a whole cage bottom. Another plus is because its water-based it's almost self leveling filling in the cracks in an otherwise perfect finish.
My 2 Cents
-----
"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

I may try some of the newer water based floor finishes inside of a cage. I'm very curious to see how they work. I can tell you that Polycrylic did not hold up well to my bearded dragon. Mostly due to being easily scratched more than water resistance.

There is one catalyzed waterborne urethane that has gotten rave reviews since it's importation into the states. Unfortunately you can only buy it in bulk so it's probably not something I'll be able to recommend.

Since it's waterborne I may be able to repackage it into smaller containers and resell it to herpers. I guess the stuff absolutely blows away most other waterborne urethanes.

At any rate, the stuff cleans up with water when wet. Once cured you can only remove it with acetone. That's pretty impressive.

In conjunction with a plastic floor of some sort I do believe that the new generation of waterborne finishes will work in just about any reptile cage. But they are not something you and I can go buy at Home Depot at this point.

I'm been bitten by a hybrid mix of stain and sealer in the past (in fact I'm still waiting for my new cages to "offgas" as it has been since June) and would like to know a little more about this Varathane. Not to worried about cost at this point but the epoxies are sometimes difficult in the mixing process then you could be all screwed up again if it isn't done excatly correct. Something that is waterbased but requires acetone to remove caught my attention. What are your opionions about "offgas" time and toxicity for say Retics, Burms, Boas, and Balls?

I look forward to following this thread.

Thanks
-----
2.1 RTB (Zander, Ridick, Liliana)
1.1 Burms (Vladamir, Natalia)
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic (Katerina)
1.0 100% Het Tiger (Nicholi)
2.3 Silver fox rabbits
many, many, many, many rats
"New strategy R-2, Let the Wookie Win!!!"

Sorry to hear you're still having trouble with the poly/stain combo. As I've written many times before there are some characteristics of those products that can make them offgas for months and months. Many a talented woodworker has had to completely strip a project due to application problems with oil-based polyurethane.

Varathane makes both water and oil based products. The waterborne products are their Diamond line, the oil-based are the Premium line.

I think the Varathane Diamond polyurethanes are probably the best of the readily available waterborne products. They make three WB products. For a bit of background, you want to use the hardest urethane that your situation can handle. But hardness comes at the cost of brittleness and the hardest poly does no good if it cracks and allows water through.

The Diamond Polyurethane is their hardest and most water resistant WB poly. However, that hardness comes at the expense of brittleness so it does not always work on cage panels that will flex or expand/contract with the seasons.

The Diamond Spar Urethane is their most flexible and least water resistant WB poly. It is best in situations where the wood will expand and contract a lot or be exposed to sunlight.

The Diamond Floor Finish is inbetween the above two. It does not have any UV inhibitors that weaken the finish and is somewhat flexible to deal with small amounts of expansion and contraction.

I suspect that the Diamond Polyurethane is best for most reptile enclosures. However, if there is a lot of solid wood and/or thin panels of plywood then it might not be flexible enough.

The Diamond Floor finish is probably the safe choice. Water resistance is pretty good and it offers some flexibility.

The Diamond Spar is probably only warranted in situation where a soft wood is used. The back of Bighurt's face frames being a good example. But even then the frames are probably well anchored by the melamine carcass of his cages and the Diamond Floor finish would probably work. But I can understand why he chose the Spar.

Something that is waterbased but requires acetone to remove caught my attention.

This is a catalyzed, two-part WB urethane. In this regard it's just like epoxy - it must be mixed correctly in order to work. But the durability and water resistance surpasses any other urethane product you can buy. Even oil-based.

What are your opionions about "offgas" time and toxicity for say Retics, Burms, Boas, and Balls?

I would never put an animal in an enclosure that was still offgassing, although I'm sure that some offgassing is worse than others and some species are better equipped to deal with it than others.

More importantly, I'd say that the species concerns have more to do with the water resistance needed. Retics and Burms have some pretty nasty urates and I would not expect many sealants to hold up over time. And, like Boas, they do require humidity.

Ball Pythons are a bit more forgiving, from what I understand. Provide them with a slightly humid hide and the entire enclosure does not need to be humid.

Another option is to look in Nova prefinshed plywood. For about $60 per sheet, depending upon local prices/availability, you can get a very high quality laminated plywood with a epoxy coating baked on with UV light.

This finish is so touch that even acentone won't dissolve it, unlike the catalyzed floor finish I mentioned earlier (which cleans up with acetone).

I know $60 sounds like a lot of money but when you consider how much a sheet of plain laminated plywood costs it's really not that bad. The plywood and the veneer is of much higher quality than the comparable product at Home Depot. Factor in the factory epoxy coating and it's likely worth the extra $20 per sheet.

The big downfall is that it is relatively untested for our application.

your right chris, i should specify more...im looking more into the natural wood look...like just a sealant..i dont mind applying a couple of coats so application isnt a big deal..price is the only issue i guess, i dont mind paying $20-$30 for some sealant..i am planning on keeping this setup in my living room so I want it to look good...thanks for all you help...btw..i did look for that klear koat stuff at home depot but i couldnt find it..i did find another epoxy type of bar top sealant but i wasnt sure if it was the right stuff so i didnt buy it...
-----
0.1 normal redtail boa
1.0 true redtail boa
1.1 100% het for albino redtails
1 miami red phase cornsnake
1 baby sulcata tortoise
1 snow corn

Was the bar top epoxy you saw called Glaze Coat?

That product is nearly identical to Kleer Koat or Envirotex Epoxy. But it is expensive since it has to be applied so thick. $20 of polyurethane goes a lot farther than $20 worth of bar top epoxy.

Two more questions:

1) What type of plywood are you going with? Oak laminated, birch laminated, or what?

2) Are you planning on using a plastic floor? I believe that you were, and that does effect the possible choices.

im goin with, i think pine floors and i think either birch or oak sides, i think birch...and im cutting a section out of the floor for a plastic piece and im putting the heat tape under the plastic...thanks again...
-----
0.1 normal redtail boa
1.0 true redtail boa
1.1 100% het for albino redtails
1 miami red phase cornsnake
1 baby sulcata tortoise
1 snow corn

By pine floors I assume you mean typical plywood. That is a better choice since it is less likely to expand and contract like solid pine. I'll also assume you are covering the entire floor with plastic and not just the cutout area. I strongly recommend this.

In this case I do recommend a water based polyurethane. I don't like the look of oil based poly over birch or any other light colored wood. It's too yellow for my tastes.

If your snake constantly drops its urates and deficates along the cage wall or frequently spills its water bowl you may have to touch up the poly every so often. But the stuff dries so quick that you'll only need to have the snake out for a few days.

I would go ahead and use the Varathane Diamond Polyurethane unless you're using really thin plywood. In that case the Varathane Diamond Floor finish might be better.

Minwax Polycrylic would be my second choice for an easy to find product.

im considering your advise to cover the whole floor with plastic, but im not eggzactly sure the best way to do that..like im thinking that the plastic wont be strong enough...im thinking of taking the 2' x 3' floor and cutting a square out of the middle, say about 18" x 30" and then covering the it with plastic so it wll have some sort of structure to it..would that stuff 'sintra' be strong enough, ive heard people post about that and if i remember correctly, its cheap...or should i go with plexiglass, because i can probably find it already cut to size (if the sintra isnt available?)...thanks again...
-----
0.1 normal redtail boa
1.0 true redtail boa
1.1 100% het for albino redtails
1 miami red phase cornsnake
1 baby sulcata tortoise
1 snow corn

I'm not saying make the floor from Sintra only, although that will work. I meant to cut a hole out of the wooden floor and then cover the entire floor, including the hole, with Sintra or another brand of expanded PVC. If you're worried about strength then use 1/4" instead of 1/8". So if you're cage is 4'x2', the piece of Sintra will be 4'x2'.

Don't use acrylic. I don't think it's suitable for this application.

what would be the best way to attach the sintra to the wood? epoxy glue or something else?...thanks...
-----
0.1 normal redtail boa
1.0 true redtail boa
1.1 100% het for albino redtails
1 miami red phase cornsnake
1 baby sulcata tortoise
1 snow corn

Once you get the cage carcass assembled seal the entire thing with polyurethane, including the floor. A few to several thin coats, assuming you stick with water-based.

Then just put bead of silicone around the bottom edges of the cage and press the Sintra into that. Apply more silicone if needed to finish the edge. You'll probably have enough squeeze through that you can just smooth it out with your finger

The polyurethane will allow the silicone to make a better seal.

Should be as good as the stuff I use. Another poster on this forum has had this exact product in a boa cage for 9 years now. Says it still looks like glass.

There are ways to not have to use so much of it, which can reduce cost a bit. I can help you more with that if and when you decide to try it.

yes i think so, it said it was as good as 60 coats of varnish or something...it was for bar tops etc...it might have been a different name...but basically the same product...
-----
0.1 normal redtail boa
1.0 true redtail boa
1.1 100% het for albino redtails
1 miami red phase cornsnake
1 baby sulcata tortoise
1 snow corn