Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

I just have a couple of questions for any of you who use radiant heat panels in your burms enclosure.

- How do you have it installed in the enclosure?
and
- What is the distance (i.e., inches) from the heated surface of the panel to the animal?

I'm in the process of setting up new cages, and I want to decide on a heat source. This may or may not wind up being the way I go.

Any info would be great.

Thanks,
- Mark
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I bought 3 6' Neos that had them installed. 2 have 9' Olives, 1 has a 12' Papuan Olive. They're at the left side of the cage, about 4' from the end. The reg olives pay no attention, but the Papuan gets a little weird after I put him back in his cage after cleaning, and will coil part of his body there between the top of the cage and the panel sides for about 10mins, but it's not hot there. Otherwise, they seem to work fine, although I prefer under-cage heating.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Why do you prefer under-cage heating?

Although there's nothing technically wrong with undercage heating, I strongly recommend overhead heat as it provides a far more natural method for providing natural thermal gradient. I have been using Pro Product Radiant Heat Panels for MANY years and have never encountered a single problem with them. My herps have flourished, bred and lived long lives with this sort of heat. There are times when a UTH is a good idea; for example, if your herps are in a particularly warm room where you don't want to boost the background temps any more than you have to. In this case, a UTH is acceptable as it provides a basking spot without substantially warming the ambient air. I typically keep my background temps in the 70-72 deg F range for all of my herps and then just individually heat each cage via heat panels and thermostats....I also use a full spectrum fluorescent light to provide a good quality light source.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Why do you prefer under-cage heating?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hi Rob,

In your installations of the heat panels, what is the average panel surface to animal distance? I have one of these panels, running on a thermostat, with a surface temperature of about 160 degrees F - and it seems to me that even with that high surface temperature the falloff rate of sensible heat is very high. It seems that the heat radiating from the panel only reaches about 5-6 inches before it is overly dissipated into background heat, contributing more to ambient temperature than to any kind of a warm or basking spot.

This seems to me to be a relatively ineffective way to warm an animal, as I have had to make significant modifications to my installation to get it close enough to my python that he can actually use it's heat.

I have been doing some preliminary research into alternative 'heaters' and have found a couple types of near and mid range infrared emission heaters that may work much, much better (having greater sensible range). The only problem so far is that all of what I have found so far is mostly over sized/powered, or prohibitively expensive (for my wallet).

So, I'm still open to either other heating methods, or perhaps just a good plan for installing the radiant heat panels to get them to perform more effectively.

If you have any suggestions, or perhaps some photos of your installations that you could share, that would be great.

Thanks,
- Mark
.

I use the Pro Products RHP. My cages are 18" high.
So from the bottom of the panel ( heating surface ) to the cage floor, the distance is around 16.5".
Installing it about 18" in from the end of the 8' enclosure I get cage temps that range from 88*-92* at one end...94* directly under the panel. And low to mid 80's at the cool end.
I see my burms utilizing each spot in the enclosure.
Hot, cool, med. Mostly I see them under the cool or med side. Verys eldon basking directly under the panel.
I use the large panels. 160 watts I believe they are. Herp room is mid 70's.
Cages are 8'x 30"x 18".
Surface panel temps are around 130. I checked this temp, and all my temps with a temp gun, so I believe the temps stated to be accurate.
Panel is attached with its non heating surface flush to the cage ceiling. Bolted right through the tops of the cages.

Thanks for that info (it was just what I was looking for).

But now, I can't see what I'm doing wrong. How is it that I've measured higher surface temps on my panel, but it doesn't seem to do such a good job heating. That is, the heat doesn't travel very far. When I put my hand under the panel I can't really feel very much warmth until I'm within about 4-6 inches. So that's why I'm so surprised that everyone else is able to use these panels being mounted so high (18"!) above the cage floor.

Is is possible that I'm not using the panel correctly? Could I have it installed upside down? (I have the 'rough' surface facing down). I even have a thermostat on it, but it runs pretty much fully on (or rather, 'I' run 'it' fully on).

To get the panel close enough to my burm to feel like it is doing any good I lowered the heater using 8" bolts to hang it from the cieling (and then wrapped metal screen around the bolts to keep him from going on top of the panel). This is a 12"x24" panel, mounted next to the light shroud in a Vision #632 cage (6'x3'x18in):

I had originally had the panel mounted flush to the cieling when I first got it. But that didn't do any good, so I didn't leave it that way for very long. Also, I now have a layer of foil insulation on the top side of the heater, just to help direct the downward (at least, that's what my intention was).

Even with the panel only 10" away now it is barely acceptable as far as I can tell. If I was to do this all over again I might lower to within ~6 inches from the floor. But that just seems like it shouldn't be necessary, according to how others have thier panels installed.

You can have a look at the panel (and my burm) on my webcam at home if you like. He's in shed right now, so he's been spending a lot of time on the warm end of his cage (typical for him when he's blue).

My home webcam

Thanks,
- Mark
.

-----
.
-------------------------------------------------------------
My personal website: www.antegy.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries

- 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
- 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
- 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
- 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
- 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
-------------------------------------------------------------
My photography on photo.net
-------------------------------------------------------------
My photography on modelmayhem.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Me on myspace.com

Which brand of heat panel were you using? I have tried several manufactures and some are really bad. The Pro Products are superior to anything else on the market. My advice would be to talk to Bob Pound from P.P. He is an expert on this subject and can do a far better job than me in explaining proper wattages, temp monitoring, etc. Radiant heat is sometimes difficult to check with standard thermometers and oftentimes, you will get an incorrect reading. Radiant heat works by objects absorbing heat from the heater....its kind of like when you get into a car on a cold but sunny winter day, you can feel the warmth of the sun beating on your head through the window....radiant heat panels work very similarly. When we ordered our heat panels I basically gave Bob the dimensions of our exhibits along with the species we were keeping and he came back with a recommendation. So far, he has been PERFECTO in his advice. Hope this helps. What I really like about these panels, particularly for large burms, is the large surface area for basking that is provided by these panels. Even a 20' burm can get completely under a large heat panel w/out overheating the entire cage...they truly are the best products out there for heating large snakes. Rob

>>Thanks for that info (it was just what I was looking for).
>>
>>But now, I can't see what I'm doing wrong. How is it that I've measured higher surface temps on my panel, but it doesn't seem to do such a good job heating. That is, the heat doesn't travel very far. When I put my hand under the panel I can't really feel very much warmth until I'm within about 4-6 inches. So that's why I'm so surprised that everyone else is able to use these panels being mounted so high (18"!) above the cage floor.
>>
>>Is is possible that I'm not using the panel correctly? Could I have it installed upside down? (I have the 'rough' surface facing down). I even have a thermostat on it, but it runs pretty much fully on (or rather, 'I' run 'it' fully on).
>>
>>To get the panel close enough to my burm to feel like it is doing any good I lowered the heater using 8" bolts to hang it from the cieling (and then wrapped metal screen around the bolts to keep him from going on top of the panel). This is a 12"x24" panel, mounted next to the light shroud in a Vision #632 cage (6'x3'x18in):
>>
>>I had originally had the panel mounted flush to the cieling when I first got it. But that didn't do any good, so I didn't leave it that way for very long. Also, I now have a layer of foil insulation on the top side of the heater, just to help direct the downward (at least, that's what my intention was).
>>
>>Even with the panel only 10" away now it is barely acceptable as far as I can tell. If I was to do this all over again I might lower to within ~6 inches from the floor. But that just seems like it shouldn't be necessary, according to how others have thier panels installed.
>>
>>You can have a look at the panel (and my burm) on my webcam at home if you like. He's in shed right now, so he's been spending a lot of time on the warm end of his cage (typical for him when he's blue).
>>
>>My home webcam
>>
>>Thanks,
>>- Mark
>>.
>>
>>-----
>>.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My personal website: www.antegy.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries
>>
>> - 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
>> - 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on photo.net
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on modelmayhem.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>Me on myspace.com
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hi Rob,

I am actually using the same panels you are - the Pro Products Radiant heat panels. And back when I purchased it I did so by speaking first with Bob Pound. And I gave him dimensions, materials of construction, type/size of animal, etc.

Also, I've been taking temperature measurements with an infrared hand-held thermometer (which I've checked against a certified, calibrated thermocouple - and it is very reasonably accurate).

I understand the concept of radiant heat - the trouble is, well, this panel just doesn't seem to 'radiate' very well. Do you think it could have anything to do with the fact that it is in a Vision cage? (I've heard people complain of their ability to hold heat/humidity, etc.)

If the cage type does have a big impact on the performance of the panel I'd like to ask your opinion of enclosures made by Cages By Design, as for keeping a burm. I'm in the planning stages of getting a new cage for my burm and I've been closely considering one from Cages By Design. Do you think this would be ok?

Thanks,
- Mark
.

I have monster cages...made of pvcx I believe.
Next cages will be homemade. But for boas not burms.
Unless I get a bigger herp room,nno more big snakes for me.
No matter what type of enclosure I use, it will be Pro Products RHP
I'd have to guess, that your Vision cage is not holding the heat.
Radiant heat is just that...the heat passes from heat to cold...thereby heating the surrounding air.
It has to heat...it's the law of physics...so it must be the cage allowing heat to escape.but that is a very big panel. I cant understand why it cant do its job.

I use heat panels in my Visions and haven't experienced any problems. I would recommend calling Bob and seeing what he recommends; he'll take care of you because he takes great pride in the quality of his products.

>>I have monster cages...made of pvcx I believe.
>>Next cages will be homemade. But for boas not burms.
>>Unless I get a bigger herp room,nno more big snakes for me.
>>No matter what type of enclosure I use, it will be Pro Products RHP
>>I'd have to guess, that your Vision cage is not holding the heat.
>>Radiant heat is just that...the heat passes from heat to cold...thereby heating the surrounding air.
>>It has to heat...it's the law of physics...so it must be the cage allowing heat to escape.but that is a very big panel. I cant understand why it cant do its job.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Mark..

Kept us updated on how you make out with this. Selfish reasons of course.
I've been thinking of buying some Vision cages. Your experience will help me.
Good Luck!

Bob