Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The low last night was 39 degrees and the temp this afternoon was 65. It was clear and sunny when I flipped these 2 snakes:

Sonoran Gopher snake
Wandering Garter snake

Both were found under cover (wood).

I go to this spot in the spring time and usually find around 10 snakes of different species. So I wasn't as productive (in numbers) as I was in the spring time - but I still found a couple of snakes.

I think I will keep going to this spot throughout the winter time and see what happens.

Kerby...

A Wandering Garter snake. Sorry about chopping the head off in the pic.

Kerby...

I'll bet there are alot of AZ blacks in that spot too. LOL
At least if its the spot I'm thinking of. Your phone is ringing..................
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

What your doing will not work. The reason is, snakes do have behavior, not just picking temps or finding food. Then have behaviors to avoid predators. By disturbing them, moving their cover, they have no choice but to avoid that area.

That is also not cut and dry. I my experience, a certain percentage will never return(say 50%) Another percent will require several interactions to avoid the area(say, 20%) the rest may either not be bothered.

As I mentioned, you have to find places that are windows into their lives. Where you can see them, but do not have to touch or disturb them.

As you have thought, this does limit the types of species that are suitable for this.

You will also find that early in the year and late in the year a high percentage of snake will be in shed, have a food bolus, or gravid(at various stages) and lastly be injured. All reasons to elevate their temps.

Kerby as good as you are with captives indicates you surely will be able to figure this out. Good Luck FR

**What your doing will not work. The reason is, snakes do have behavior, not just picking temps or finding food. Then have behaviors to avoid predators. By disturbing them, moving their cover, they have no choice but to avoid that area**

Yes, I believe that to be true...IF...it is in a harassing manner. Learned behavior to avoid predation. But without giving specific locations on this forum (I can e-mail and tell you though) this site is near water, water that fluctuates and moves the boards and logs throughout the year up and down the bank. The only time it is stable is but for a few months when there is no rain. Rains come and when I go back the cover has moved. Snakes are still there. Also, there is human foot traffic in the area.

Also, I do not remove the cover, only lift it and put it back down. And without marking snakes, I wonder how many times I see the same snake???

My idea is to see how long into the season I can still find snakes in this area. I do not believe that frequent visits will reduce my sightings because I am spooking them.

Kerby...

What FR may be doing is giving small tidbits of information without spilling the whole enchalada. Tiny hints to make us figure it out on our own. Actually, they are giant hints. Those same hints are all around us, in field guides, natural history books..

I had a fairly secure site several years ago that I visited quite often. There were four snakes that seemed to have made various pieces of AC their homes. If conditions were right I could usually observe all four. Thing is I didn't disturb them other than lifting the cover observing that they were there and gently putting the cover back. The species were: eastern garter, black racer, eastern king and southern copprehead. By the end of the summer the racer wouldn't even dart away when I lifted the cover.

First Kerby, if this AC is close to water, then its only temporary and will not be used year a round. Snakes do not live around water(to dangerous) the visit around water. Their homes have to be safe, so they are above high water lines. Way above.

Also, AC is not where snakes live, its merely a tool to use. They go there because they can elevate the BT's(body temps) without being exposed. In the case of the gophersnake, it appears to have a food bolus. Thus requiring elevated temps. The snakes live in the ground somewhere close by. Also, As I mentioned, they are required to move their homes if the homes cannot maintain high enough temps. So normally they are not in shady areas. Althought I do have an exception to this.

Theres also a real hard fact to swallow. That is, in order to learn about the snakes, you must learn what they do without AC, they are designed for NC=natural cover, not artificial cover. All their behaviors are formed from natural cover.

Consider, field work is just like captive husbandry, there are many interpitations to one observation/behavior. Your task is to pick the right one. In this case, Is the AC a temporary tool? a summer home? a winter home? or all of the above? or none of the above. Each of these have ways to tell what they are. The point is, if you found the snake there, then of course its within the range of that snake. So what is that distance, it varies on the area, its a small as necessary.

For Kerby, come Jan. I ask for you to stand right next to those boards and look. Are they in the shade? are they covered in snow? what are the temps? If the temps are not in the range needed by the snakes, then they surely will not be there. While your standing there, look around, are there any areas with a suitable range. If your lucky and theres an area that allows surface viewing, that would be cool. But most likely, there will be areas that are slighly under and not allow viewing. But there is still evidence, you just have to find it.

Coming from the south, I often wondered if this applys to the north. So about 8 yrs ago, I went a visited a friend of mine who lives about 40 miles from the Canadian border. While there, I watched colonies of gardersnakes. It was amazing how they crammed as many different stages into one time slot. That is, I found them breeding, giving birth, feeding, all sizes of babies, all at once. This indicated they took advantage of any open window to achieve needed tasks. I then tested it on rubber boas. Its took about twenty minites before I found a colonie. Why I bring this up is, this colony reminded me of someones snake cage. There were sheds everywhere, feces everywhere, tunnels everywhere and boas shooting down these tunnels and boas coiled, here and there. This area, had the ability to maintain useable temps or the longest period of time, 24/7, 365. This is what is important.

Bluerosy, thanks and your right, I will not endanger the snakes by giving away places. So, I do give away bits and pieces. But I gave the whole enchilada up many posts ago, just no one was listening.

There is good reason why I give that away. I feel its very important that we understand, in order to survive, snakes have required areas like winter(active) homes and summer homes, or better yet, breeding areas and foraging areas. If consevation ever occurs(I have strong doubts) It would be fruitless in they did not enclude winter homes. As of now, all they are concerned about are foraging areas. You all can understand, if they cannot survive winters, then all the food in the world will be of not benefit.

But as I see more and more habitat destruction, I have to wonder if its not better to leave them be, and not bother them until they are gone, because no one will cause human deaths to save nature. In the end, to enforce real conservation, it will cause human deaths. Such as, not using land or farming or water for human use, and of course for our houses and factories. Some of my first study sites are now shopping malls, hahahahahahahaha these areas where set aside for conservation. Now there shopping malls, hahahahahahahahaha sorry, to much coffee. FR

First off, the Gopher snake was huffing and puffing when I took the pick and was inflated for that purpose, otherwise when he crawled off he did not appear to have a food item in him.

**Theres also a real hard fact to swallow. That is, in order to learn about the snakes, you must learn what they do without AC, they are designed for NC=natural cover, not artificial cover. All their behaviors are formed from natural cover**

I am aware that the snakes won't make their permanent winter home near water (a death sentence). My purpose is to see how long they will stay in that area until it gets too cold and they move away. I've never kept looking in that area when the temps start to fall. I'm just curious as to how long they will stay. I know they will seek another habitat for the cold winter. Also about AC, what is natural?? Surely all the rocks and logs are natural. The shoreline is littered with these. There are boards that have floated ashore (not natural, but the snakes does not know that). Even Wandering Garters and Narrowheads can be found in different places between early spring and late summer and then late fall again.

Kerby...

When i was in jr. high and high school i had 3 spots i liked to go herping. One was in my back yard cause i lived in the what use to be country or sticks lol. That area is nothing but houseing tracs now. Another area was about 10 miles further from town and it has a road going through it a 7-11 is there and some houseing tracs being built there now too. Another area was at a lake i use to goto every weekend and where i looked for snakes and lizeerrrds is now a man made peer and a parking lot. I still do find the occasional rattler there every once in a while. My other one tops the cake its been devoloped and taken over by Intel. Its sad cause my childhood has been developed and its hard to show my kids what i did and where. No wonder all kids want to do now is play vidieo games. Those will always be around.

First Kerby, if this AC is close to water, then its only temporary and will not be used year a round. Snakes do not live around water(to dangerous) the visit around water. Their homes have to be safe, so they are above high water lines. Way above.

- Often, though not always the case. I cite Crotalus polystictus near Lake Chapala in Jalisco, and how about...Sistrurus in Kansas...kind of a borderline example Sometimes snakes just don't "think" that far ahead. It's not too uncommon to find snakes "flooded out" in December and January rains. As for the polystictus...heck rain means its time to go find a mate.

Also, AC is not where snakes live, its merely a tool to use.
It is entirely conceivable for a small species to live out its entire life in and around a choice piece of large artificial cover (i.e. an abandoned barn).

...As I mentioned, they are required to move their homes if the homes cannot maintain high enough temps. So normally they are not in shady areas. Althought I do have an exception to this.

how are you defining "home"? Plenty of snakes den on shady north faces, especially in areas where they need to achieve lower temperatures to slow their metabalisms - i.e. Crotalus ruber in Southern California

JJ

np

Hmmmm apples to oranges, both of those find dirt rows or mounds above water level, isn't that true? Also, arn't these areas your talking about, invaded habitat, not natural? That is, they are now living in manmade habitat.

Also so many other conditions are totally different, but the result is the same. They can only live where its safe to live, and they have learned that over tens of thousands of years. But of course they have no idea of mans interference. So if man causes floods to levels not included in their natural behaviors, they better start to learn about these or be gone.

But if you really want to stretch meanings, then what about tropical rainforest snakes, where huge floods are normal? I guess they must know of reliable trees or they will die. I would imagine these are limiting factors, that allow some species to exsist and others to not exsist, hey? Thanks FR

Hmmmm apples to oranges, both of those find dirt rows or mounds above water level, isn't that true?
Yep, the most part, but I wouldn't describe all situations as far removed from water

Also, arn't these areas your talking about, invaded habitat, not natural? That is, they are now living in manmade habitat.
Not sure on the Sistrurus, but the polystictus are mesquite-grassland snakes...which is just what the lake shore is, and likely has been. Granted some portions have been converted to non-usable habitat, and other portions may have been enhanced.

Also so many other conditions are totally different, but the result is the same. They can only live where its safe to live, and they have learned that over tens of thousands of years.
Yep

But if you really want to stretch meanings, then what about tropical rainforest snakes, where huge floods are normal?
Gotta wonder about that, I guess at those latitudes you don't exactly require a winter home. I really don't know jack about rainforest snakes, but if I were to guess, I'd imagine that fossorial species avoid the lowest portions of flood basins (or have been progressively eliminated from them).

You get my email?

Best,

Jason Jones

I e-mailed you right back, you didn't get it???? I will send it again.

Many species in flood prone areas live/move into large dead trees. I actually crawled around inside some of these, Its basically like ground only higher up. Some hollow trees are 5 to 6 feet or more in diameter(ones I went in) I am sure others are much larger.

The insides are filled with decomposed material, similar to the outside. I would imagine this is one reason why trees of many ages are required to keep a forest/rain forest, healthy. FR

I got your initial reply, but did you get my reply to your reply? lol.

Interesting note on the trees.

thanks,

JJ

Hi, Kerby. Nice post.

Yesterday in n. Michigan it was 51*F. for a high and about 32*F. for a low. When I got home it was sunny and pleasant, but cool. I know there are hundreds of snakes living on my property (20 acres), and I have dozens of snake traps (boards, tin, rocks, etc.) spread around the property. But when I went around and checked things I didn't see one single snake...

I haven't seen any snakes since the end of September, with the exception of a few Eastern garters, when temps hit the 70's. Why aren't the snakes surface active under these conditions in n. MI?

I believe snakes have different behaviors in different areas of the country. Even in the southern part of MI the snakes behave different than they do where I live because of the differing conditions, even though they may seem the same at the time. If it had been spring yesterday, I probably would have seen dozens of snakes depending on what part of spring and what the snakes were doing. Mostly, only the natricine snakes are surface active in early spring here.

I think 51*F, and sunny, is different in AZ than it is in n. MI at this time of year. I don't have much time to talk about it right now, but will throw out a couple reasons to think about. One is that it is much less likely to freeze overnight in AZ than in n. MI. Another is that AZ will get way more days around 70*F. than in n. MI. And finally, the underground temps are very important too. I don't have too much time to explain right now. Let's just say that the temps near the surface in AZ stay in a range the snakes can function in much longer than they do in n. MI. In MI, once the underground temps start dropping below a critical temp, I believe around 55*F, I believe the snakes start to shut down and not move.

Anyway, I'll keep you all posted on what I see from now until next spring and get back to you later on talking about the underground temps and why snakes can stay surface active longer in AZ.

PS: My job right now is killing me. I'm going to be very involved for awhile. Should get some time this coming weekend.

Terry

I'm thrilled to hear about the number of snakes on your property. I live in the south western part of Michigan and it is getting hard to find snakes in the wild where I am. I would love to know what species you've found on your place and in what general area of MI you live in. thanks

I live in Cheboygan County, about 1/2 hr. below the bridge. We have Eastern garters, northern water, brown, redbelly, green, ringneck, hognose, and milksnakes here. The ones we have good numbers of are all the live-bearers (natricines) and milksnakes. You have to remember we manage our 20 acres to maximize diversity and habitats. We also are connected to a swamp, a creek, and have four ponds on our property. If you have the habitat the animals will be there. The reason we have so many milksnakes is that there is so much food for them, plus we maintain about ten acres of prairie-like habitat, a favorite of theirs.

There's lots of snakes and other herps in s.w. MI. You just have to go where the good habitat is.

TC