Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

What do you guys think the price of Spiders will be this year? I was also wondering how everyone feels the spider market will do in the next few years. Anyways, any replies would be great.

HOOPY

Personally I think spiders are too expensive. Yes they are the key for outrageous morphs but not by themselves. Look at a pied, caramel albino, platty, stripe. They seem to carry their beauty. I like the high yellow pastels too. Now I might get a spider when the prices drop. I believe price will be in the 5k - 10k area in 3 years. Look at the pied males 25k females 15k in 1999. But who can predict the prices? Pete had an albino male for 10k for sale in 98 or 99. Humm albinos are now 2000-3500 price now. Goes back to supply/demand.
Has anyone produce a "super spider"?
-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

There is no super form of the spider, it is a dominant trait. Females seem to be $12,000-$15,000 and males $16,000-$20,000 this year. I think they will slowly drop, and since it is definatly dominant that helped the price come down. However with the Bees, the ghost Spider, and the albino spider, the price should stay high. These show how awesome the morph is when combined with other morphs. I think next year we will see the price fall 2-3 thousand, and probably about the same each year there after. This is just a guess, but looking at other morphs, this should be pretty close. I really don't think they are over priced, when you look at thier numbers. There aren't many out there, and this helps keep the price high.
Jason

I think there are many many spiders out there. Sure big breeders have tons of them that they have held back. Kevin probably has many spider het for every morph in the book. Plus lots of spiders. Think the price will come down alot. Think 16-20 K is really high. Think by end of the year will be able to get them for much much cheaper.
-----
Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Good question...

I don't think the prices are that bad at all. There are a good number of Spiders out there but they are still one of the hottest single morphs out there and personally... I think the designers are the BEST of all the morphs out there!

Think about it this way... even if the price drops a lot in the next 2 years... Spiders feed & breed great! If you got one for $20K now you will be WAY ahead of all those who wanted to wait to save money. You will be well on your way to breeding your animal to many normal females (maybe even morph females if you can.) How many $5-10K snakes does it take to break even on your $20K investment?!? I say it doesn't take all that you can produce... I'm sure many others will agree...

Stay positive and FEED FEED FEED!!! You can't lose....

Thanks,

-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Perhaps the prices are ok now. But it depends on how you get/earn your money to purchase them.
-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

Rick...

I would like to know... what is up with that comment??

But it depends on how you get/earn your money to purchase them.
-----
RicK Denmon

I think a lot of people work hard for their money! It sure would be nice to take a risk on a Ball Python morph and make good money doing something you LOVE!

Imagine being able to work at home with the animals that you have raised and bred with your own hard work and perseverance!! I tell you what does it for me... BABIES!!! Every time I see a head sticking out of an egg or a baby eat its first meal I am rejuvenated... all my hard work has been paid off with LIFE!!

Creation is beautiful!!

Have fun with your projects everyone......
-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Nothing like seeing hatchlings. When I had four eggs from het to het breeding of pieds and get three pieds was fantastic. But not many people can be in the position with a spouse and a few children. Throw in a mortgage food for family of four, clothing, etc. Not many folks can afford a morph for 25k period. Not to many people can afford to put that much in a bank certificate nor stock market.
Maybe I would love to disperse money on another project. I have other fixed costs for my living expenses. To take a risk is what it would be.
Not many folks want to take that risk! I for one will work with what I have now. If I wish to expand I will with the capital I will have from SALES ONLY! Not from my own savings.
I find that cleaning rodents and reptile cages is NOT hard work! Try working on a moving van...that is hard work. Been there - done it. Work night shift in a restaurant - that is hard work. Stand in front of a machine producing paper towels all night for eight hours....that is hard work. Ask JY how hot it is where he works eight hours a day!!!!
You also must remember most folks do NOT make 25k a year. Look up the statistics.
Hope this helps. Not all people can purchase animals that high period. I hope this help you understand. Remember I am 58 yo. I believe you are 23 yo? You must look at reality. I believe well over half of the good members of this forum would/will not pay that much money for a morph that costs that much. Perhaps an albino for $2500.00 yes but a spider $25,000.00 no. I believe no ball is really worth 25k. Think about it folks! Nice car for $25,000.00. My mind set has changed. I paid $25,000.00 for 2.2 het pieds! One pair never gave me a pied yet. Great investment on that pair. I paid $9,000.00 for a pair of womas. Female died in one year. I bough another pair for $7,000.00 female kinked back can not breed $0.0 profit. I have balls now that have not bred yet. Nothing in life is guaranteed. If one has $25,000.00 to take a chance and they can say they do not need the money then GO FOR IT! And yes I will have morphs for sale this year and next year too. Must admit it is better odds than the lottery. LOL Perhaps that makes me look at the "real" world. Don't mortgage the house or take loans for a "dream morph"! Be within your budget. Hope this helps explain.
Happy herping!
RicK

Now let's all find NeMo
-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

I agree with you 100%! I myself am a 25 year old male with a wife. I love my ball pythons, but not that much to where I want to pay 20K for a snake. I am wanting a ghost, and I am having trouble putting $800 aside for one of those. I have a excellant career as an Executive Chef and make a lot of money, but my family COMES FIRST! Just my 2 CENTS!!!!!..P.S. This is my only "morph" a little bullseye male!! I only paid $80 for him..that price included shipping!

Better to invest in your FAMILY verses a snake! No need to think about that!
-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

I saw a Saleen S7 show on TV last night. A new American super car priced at $400,000. There is a one year waiting list. It is all about supply and demand, something new, being the first to have something, AND having money to burn. The "family" man probably will not buy a spider ball, but he would not be in the market for an S7 either. My point being, is a car worth $400K? IS a spider Ball worth $20K? The answer is to someone, yes they are! I would spend $400K on my house, paying it off etc, but the person that has $400K to BURN, probably has their house paid off and just has money burning a hole in their pocket. Would I spend $20K on a Spider, heck no. My entire ball collection is only worth $30K, could not spend $20K on one snake, if something happened to it, would be too big of a loss for me to take. Someone with a million bucks in the bank, that decides to take on ball breeding as their new hobby, sure, a spider might be a good place for THEM to start

Dave

Family definitely comes first! Please note that I never said anything refering to family NOT coming first. One of the greatest things about this hobby/business is that there is a position for everyone! From the reptile hobbyist interested in one animal as a pet to the discriminating professional that lives off of his/her investments.

I admire your "Ghost Goal" and I am sure that you intend to breed him eventually to perhaps produce more Ghosts. It is entertaining and rewarding enough just to hatch babies... forget about the whole morph thing. But if you do purchase that Ghost and then breed it... making hets... hold back the girls and bring them back to the Ghost you will find a way to easily make back your $800 investment plus the money spent on caging, food etc. I mean honestly... how many people out there can say that they have a hobby that they break even on. I know this is MY first one that I have broken even on! I re-invest all the profit money but I am also in a position to do so.

Good luck with your collection Pythonjunkie! I wish you luck in the future...

Thanks for reading...
-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Thank you! I appreciate that! I do plan on breeding as soon as I can afford them. best wishes to evryone here!
Mike

Please note that I NEVER said anything about ditching family and morality for Ball Python investments. It is a RISK as nearly every investment is.

The original question from HOOPY was about the market stability of Spiders! If one would question this market's future and stability, one would already be aware of the higher priced morphs and the risk of investment. This was not a public service announcement telling people to run up their credit card bills on snakes that are insanely priced!

Now to address your age comment... I honestly don't appreciate being told that because I am ONLY 23 I don't understand life. A little background for the public that doesn't know me... I worked in pet shops since I was 14 and at the age of 20 I bought out the business that employed me. It has been 3 years of struggling and reinvesting to get where I am now. I constantly thank those that helped me get to where I am with their insight and advice! I consider myself priveledged to do what I do.

I went to the Orlando Expo in 1995 with a relatively small amount of herp knowledge. There I met people such as Brian & Lori Barczyk, Mark & Kim Bell, Pete Kahl, Kevin McCurley, Bob Clark & Dave & Tracy Barker... I was blown away that you could do this business FULL TIME!! Just breeding stuff... no retail store or massive wholesale operation... just production! Selling high quality animals that you know are such because the y were produced by YOU! I was hooked... and I knew I wanted to do THIS for a living.

It is hard work to run a business... to feed and clean reptiles and rodents and keep the books! Don't forget the books... sales tax, employment tax, income tax, permits, check books, blah blah blah. Let's just say I wouldn't want to be in Ralph's shoes with the reptile thing and the construction thing and Teresa's salon thing and 2 KIDS... man that is a lot to keep track of! I am not knocking harder labor I'm just saying that the 70-80 hour a week grind that big collections require should not be taken lightly.

Speaking of bad ideas... $25K for a nice car is the worst purchase we have to make! Everyone who drives a car knows this so I won't beat a dead horse.

Finally... you spent $25K on 2.2 Hets that have given you 3-4 Piebalds? IF you had been concerned with the state of the investment, you could have immediately broke even by selling 2 of those Piebalds and from that moment on... that investment was PAID! That is what I was saying about the Spider situation... no matter what the price sinks to... there is little risk that you won't be given the chance to pay off the investment.

This has been an interesting debate...

Remember to enjoy your collection as they are all wonderful! Also... don't make investments if the money can't be risked!

Thank you for reading all this
-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

It is about herping.

You never mentioned risk in the other post.

You purchased a spider. Did you feel it was insanely too costly?

Age - When you are 58 you might understand me. Not criticizing your age. But I think I have learned plenty between 23-58. Ask your parents. I thought I had the world wrapped around my little finger after college. Then I woke up! I am sure you learned a few things since you were 18.

The pleasure of a new car just knocks my socks off. May be it is me but; I never drove a car till I was 21. Could not afford one. I love driving my 2000 Corvette. Price holding up much better then my het pieds. Retail price of my Corvette now is $36,400.00 I paid little under $50,000.00. Paid 12k for a pair of het pieds now under 4k a pair. Animals are the 1998 model year. I realized both would drop in value. Just "things" I wanted. You know old men and their toys.

What would have happened if I just purchased the "other" pair of pieds? I would still be looking for the money. RISK!!!

Your statement:
"Remember to enjoy your collection as they are all wonderful! Also... don't make investments if the money can't be risked!"

Your comments seem to contradict each other. You say you make your money back and then you say there is risk.

I kept my pied for breeding.

My corporation is to supplement my pension that I receive from the state. It gives me something to do with my time. I started herping in 1993. Back in the good old days. When I was young.
And I still feel 15k is too much money for a reptile. But if someone can afford it and it brings them joy of ownership and it is not needed cash then it is ok. Lots of risk involved. Now I am contradicting myself. Does anyone think Bill Gates is interested in my collection?

Happy herping. Good luck in your endeavors what ever you do!
RicK

-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

I still would have to agree that a spider ball would be a better investment then any car. Can your car reproduce? Of course not, so like he said in the other posts, take your pieds sell them and your whole project is paid off. Can you ever have a car paid off without paying for it, and then paying for it again in intrest? Just a thought.
Jason

I DID NOT BUY MY CORVETTE FOR AN INVESTMENT. But what would happen if I kept the car for 30 years and sold it in mint condition. Perhaps I could make a profit on it? I only have 2000 miles on it. I ordered it in 1999. Just a thought. I was told I could get -10k for my 68 dodge. I paid under 3k new.

But my pair of pieds I bought have not produce a pied yet. The other pair gave me the pieds. Risk. That is WHY I bought two pairs. It paid off. So far this year I have NO pied eggs!

Both are at risk my car could crash and my animals will never produce.
Getting back to the spiders. To me they are not worth the money. I rather put it into caramel albinos! They smack my eyes around. I think there are more spiders out now than caramels. Look at the classifieds. How many spiders for sale this month verses caramels? Supply - demand. If you like spiders buy them....enjoy - we all have choices to make.
RicK

Where is Bill Gates when you need him?
-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

It will never make you a dime.

And no matter how many times you put two snakes together you can get zero pieds. Perhaps someday they will.
Besides does it matter to any one that my Corvette will not make me money. I bought it because I wanted it....period. Always wanted one since I was in elementary school. I enjoy looking at it and driving it. So what if I did not spend the money on more snakes. I can enjoy both my collection and car.
-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

Rick ,

You make a good point about the "actual" value but you fail to compare "potential earning capabilities" between the two.

I have yet to see a corvette reproduce, Have you?

corvettes are a poor investment but they are a great toy.

The hets you bought back in '98 should have "potentially" made you more then that corvette has cost you. If you chose not to sell, great. Hold back , get more females and increase numbers in the next few years. Even if the floor drops out on the market that you invested in you are in a far greater position to earn then someone just getting "in" at the lower price. Four pieds even at the current market price would bring in 25k - 35k depending on white value and sex. This is not even adding in all the het pairs you could have also sold.

I also have a spider that I bought this year. I had no problem spending the money neccesary to make the investment. I have seen all my money come back ten folds on all my other projects. Why would this be different? I know the market will come down in the next few years. By that time I will be in a great position with my many breeding spiders/bumble bees or any other combination that I hatch out to "potentially" make an even larger return. The simple fact that there will be more people to sell to at the lower price.

I do agree that it is not a sure thing ....spend the money and beautiful wonderful things will happen to you..... AH,NO!!! It takes dedication and hard work to keep this going. I am fortunate that I have alot of friends and family for support.

everyone knows the old saying that,

"you need to spend money to make money" but everyone forgets after the money rolls in... " that you need to reinvest money to keep making money".

This is the greatest hobby in the world(period). Everyone that wants to ba a part of it will find their place within it. I would encourage everyone to reach for the stars. Who am I to steamroll someones dreams.....

Mike King
MK Reptiles

Corvette = a great toy.

spider = a great toy.
spider = cash cow if it reproduces. Reproduction is the key. Animal might be sterile.

This is my point.
-----
RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

There is no super form of the spider, it is a dominant trait. Females seem to be $12,000-$15,000 and males $16,000-$20,000 this year. I think they will slowly drop, and since it is definatly dominant that helped the price come down. However with the Bees, the ghost Spider, and the albino spider, the price should stay high. These show how awesome the morph is when combined with other morphs. I think next year we will see the price fall 2-3 thousand, and probably about the same each year there after. This is just a guess, but looking at other morphs, this should be pretty close. I really don't think they are over priced, when you look at thier numbers. There aren't many out there, and this helps keep the price high.
Jason

I think spiders will be priced between 13-15k. Just a guess but think that is what they have been offered at. Think the price will be pretty stable. As there are 4 designer morphs out there right now using spiders. Probably many more to come. Don't think there will be many many offered by people as they will be trying to make these morphs. Don't think the price is high due to low supply, like in stripes which are also awesome just not many around. Think it is high because there is a high demand. Think caramel spider, caramel glow spider, coral glow spider, pied spider (that could be weird because of the pieds pattern), and the many others. The years to come I think we could see up to 10 new spider morphs. Sure big guys already have lots of spider het for this and that growing and trying to produce the animals.
-----
Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com