Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have some captive bred Ornate box turtles. They are now approximately 4 inches TCL. Has anyone had success switching them to non-living food. I've been feeding them superworms, earthworms, crickets, grasshoppers, and many more bugs found in my yard. They also nibble on veggies and occasional fruit. I would really like to put them on a staple of easier food. I feed my other box turtles (assorted species) lowfat Science Diet dog food soaked with water. I supplement with insects and veggies/fruits. I've had great success with that, as well as Zoomed box turtle food. Please let me know your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with feeding Ornates. Do they ever take non-living food besides some fruits/veggies? I've read the books, but I want to know about your experience, please. Maybe I've just spoiled them. I can deal with that

Please let me know your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with feeding Ornates. Do they ever take non-living food besides some fruits/veggies? I've read the books, but I want to know about your experience, please. Maybe I've just spoiled them. I can deal with that

I have desert ornates, no other box species. They love their live bugs but they will take some nonliving food when they're in the mood. We picked prickly pear cactus berries this weekend, they LOVE those. I've fed them thawed out fishfood bloodworms, they like that. They like some fruit, not much in the way of veggies. If I happen to have some cooked chicken now & then I'll let them have a bite of it they will eat that.
Our dog lives on a prescription diet that's low protein, low fat, high quality ingredients, too expensive but he needs it.

The turtles will steal his food if they have the chance. I'm not a big believer in letting them eat dog food but my dog's particular food has ingredients that are similar to turtle pellet foods so when they sneak around & steal it off the dog's plate then I let them have it.
Turtle pellet food though, no way, I've tried ZooMed, Mazuri turtle & tortoise pellets, the aquatic Reptomin & Wardley's pellets. None of them will eat any of it. They won't eat the canned ZooMed box turtle food either.
What I do is rotate the foods, I never feed them the same food two feedings in a row & they do fine this way. IMO variety in diet is the key to good health.
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PHRatz

Your opinion holds that variety in the diet is the key. Variety in the diet, so long as that variety follows natural-based guidelines, is always great for any reptile captive maintenance regime. But, it's often not a necessity and it can be slightly to largely inconvenient. Hence the origin of this thread - convenience. Variety of the proper origins will provide suitable nutrition, but, so will a lack of variety of the proper (albeit manipulated) origins.

I'll digress for just a moment to point out that you provide more crucial varieties than varied diet when it comes to your turtles' well-being. You've shared pictures, and my thoughts here are based on those. Varieties of habitat. Your critters have access to a large area (compared to Rubbermaid limits) and thus a variety of temps, humidities, visual barriers, and so forth. Those are the varieties that a commercially prepared factor will never be able to try to match. Unlike the food. When you can provide proper variety of the environment, the food's not such a problem. Box turtles can live for years on a malnourishing diet if the habitat parameters are right; I say that only to emphasize how influential habitat can be. Provide great habitat and the food is secondary. Why? Because it doesn't work the other way around.

The Reptomin and Mazuri stuff should go over fine once box turtles are deprived of more natural foods. Until that day, consider them "spoiled." Or rather, consider them maintained in a more natural state. The more natural the state they're in, the more natural the behavior. I've never been exposed to luteola, only ornata, but I can attest that I've never met one that would take a soaked, prepared food over a wriggling worm.

Movement and odor seem to be the two prominent precursors to food acceptability when it comes to animal prey for box turtles. Scratch the first one when aiming for a convenient commercial diet, since that doesn't move. The commercial stuff does smell strongly, regardless of the brand, or whether it's designed for aquatic turtles, tortoises, box turtles, or even fish. Still, it all smells very different than the natural protein sources, and the turtles will have to get used to the difference. That normally means, the turtles will have to get "starved" to the difference, as they don't always experiment untill they have to.

As for the commercial food, most of what's on the market now will make most turtles grow well. An important factor is that the nutrition is fully lab-manipulated. Most of the bulk content is ground corn, soy, or puree of various warm-blooded vertebrates, with the nutrition coming from coerced compounds specifically included for that purpose. The drawback of the bulk items is that they are indeed unnatural, and, since most animal protein comes from vertebrates, often birds and mammals, the fat content can be unorthodox for a box turtle diet. Should an animal seem to be putting on excess weight, switching from a "turtle" pellet to a "tortoise" pellet (far less fat due to little animal ingredient) can prove helpful. I've used that route with multiple aquatic species in which the females in particular are prone to becoming overweight.

If there is one principle drawback to commercial food, the fat is it. Unlike with dog food and cat food, there are no weight-conscious turtle diets. Since most diets contain much beef, porcine or at least poultry by-product, excess fat can prove the error in commercial diets. The problem is not insufficient nutrition, but rather, too much of one part. It is unfortunate that there is not yet a turtle diet in which the protein is based on insect-derived matter or simply a higher-protein soy derivative.

When large numbers of turtles are maintained, a prepared diet can prove a near-necessity for supplying the bulk of the diet. This is possible because many turtle species, including box turtles, are adaptable generalists. And this is fine. It should not, however, cut out all natural food from the diet. Natural food proves a crucial precursor for certain natural behavior. If only there were a practical way to provide a 100% earthworm diet for multiple animals, then perhaps we could say that a single food item would work for box turtles without any error...

>>Your opinion holds that variety in the diet is the key. Variety in the diet, so long as that variety follows natural-based guidelines, is always great for any reptile captive maintenance regime. But, it's often not a necessity and it can be slightly to largely inconvenient. Hence the origin of this thread - convenience. Variety of the proper origins will provide suitable nutrition, but, so will a lack of variety of the proper (albeit manipulated) origins.
>>

What exactly does this mean????????

>>I'll digress for just a moment to point out that you provide more crucial varieties than varied diet when it comes to your turtles' well-being. You've shared pictures, and my thoughts here are based on those. Varieties of habitat. Your critters have access to a large area (compared to Rubbermaid limits) and thus a variety of temps, humidities, visual barriers, and so forth. Those are the varieties that a commercially prepared factor will never be able to try to match. Unlike the food. When you can provide proper variety of the environment, the food's not such a problem. Box turtles can live for years on a malnourishing diet if the habitat parameters are right; I say that only to emphasize how influential habitat can be. Provide great habitat and the food is secondary. Why? Because it doesn't work the other way around.
>>

Definately disagree here... Nutrition forms the building blocks which are required for physical development. The environment provides the vehicle which is needed for those building blocks to be used. Even with the greatest nutrition in the world you are going to get nothing if the environment does not allow the animal to use that nutrition. On the other hand you are going to get nothing if you provide the most ideal environment and crap for nutrition.

>>The Reptomin and Mazuri stuff should go over fine once box turtles are deprived of more natural foods. Until that day, consider them "spoiled." Or rather, consider them maintained in a more natural state. The more natural the state they're in, the more natural the behavior. I've never been exposed to luteola, only ornata, but I can attest that I've never met one that would take a soaked, prepared food over a wriggling worm.
>>

Some of these prepared diets do have a great deal of research behind them and actual nutritionists developing them. Most of the ingredients are included because of their usability. This makes many of these diets very nutritious almost to a fault.

>>Movement and odor seem to be the two prominent precursors to food acceptability when it comes to animal prey for box turtles. Scratch the first one when aiming for a convenient commercial diet, since that doesn't move. The commercial stuff does smell strongly, regardless of the brand, or whether it's designed for aquatic turtles, tortoises, box turtles, or even fish. Still, it all smells very different than the natural protein sources, and the turtles will have to get used to the difference. That normally means, the turtles will have to get "starved" to the difference, as they don't always experiment untill they have to.
>>

The Boxies I offered the Mazuri to were far from starved. As to the odor... have you smelled it? It does not have a strong odor or taste.

>>As for the commercial food, most of what's on the market now will make most turtles grow well. An important factor is that the nutrition is fully lab-manipulated. Most of the bulk content is ground corn, soy, or puree of various warm-blooded vertebrates, with the nutrition coming from coerced compounds specifically included for that purpose. The drawback of the bulk items is that they are indeed unnatural, and, since most animal protein comes from vertebrates, often birds and mammals, the fat content can be unorthodox for a box turtle diet. Should an animal seem to be putting on excess weight, switching from a "turtle" pellet to a "tortoise" pellet (far less fat due to little animal ingredient) can prove helpful. I've used that route with multiple aquatic species in which the females in particular are prone to becoming overweight.
>>

Most of the bulk of the prepared diets that I use consist of dietary fiber... grain hulls. Also, no animal fat is added at all.

>>If there is one principle drawback to commercial food, the fat is it. Unlike with dog food and cat food, there are no weight-conscious turtle diets. Since most diets contain much beef, porcine or at least poultry by-product, excess fat can prove the error in commercial diets. The problem is not insufficient nutrition, but rather, too much of one part. It is unfortunate that there is not yet a turtle diet in which the protein is based on insect-derived matter or simply a higher-protein soy derivative.
>>

You want to explain the difference between a soy based protein (which btw is a minor component of grain based diets) and animal protein (which I can't name a single grain based diet which uses animal protein).

>>When large numbers of turtles are maintained, a prepared diet can prove a near-necessity for supplying the bulk of the diet. This is possible because many turtle species, including box turtles, are adaptable generalists. And this is fine. It should not, however, cut out all natural food from the diet. Natural food proves a crucial precursor for certain natural behavior. If only there were a practical way to provide a 100% earthworm diet for multiple animals, then perhaps we could say that a single food item would work for box turtles without any error...

This is the first thing you said in this post that's made a little sense to me.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

The difference between a soy-based protein source and an animal-based protein source is that component animal by-product tissue comes with fat. Soy does not. This is why veggie burgers can advertise no fat compared to mickie d's. Being in veggie-friendly California, I would figure you'd remember that. Maybe you’ve been tasting too much tortoise chow, grin.

You use the tortoise chow. Many people use turtle pellets, and that is what I was addressing – commercial foods with an emphasis on replacing animal prey. That’s to say, more protein. All of those include animal protein, including Mazuri's turtle chow. The formulas you discuss are indeed professionally worked upon. The folks at Mazuri are adept at constructing dietary completeness. They might over-specialize, though, as the AquaMax carnivorous fish food they made long before turtle chow seems to meet turtle nutrition just fine. I suppose, again, many turtle species are more flexible in dietary needs than many people assume. The bulk ingredients for most of Purina’s recipes are by-products; think Pureena. When you buy Mazuri turtle diet, you’re not exactly paying for a prime cut entrée. You’re paying for basic roughage, protein and a good vitamin.

Do read the bulk ingredients of pellets besides the tortoise chow. Primary ingredient in Mazuri turtle pellets? Primary ingredient in RepCal pellets? Do you suppose corn is a natural dietary component for turtles, let alone the biggest component? Even grain-based bulk seems a bit artificial for box turtles. Has anyone shown box turtles anywhere to focus on grain at any point of the year, or is that just your animals adapting to a dietary component closer to that of your tortoises?

Box turtles are successful generalists. They make use of various diet items. It is the ability to use various foods that makes them successful. It is not a need for various foods that makes them generalists. Many of our captive animals prove that.

Great, I'll try to vary the types of dog food that I offer. Maybe a vegan diet with clinch it. I did try the prickly pear thing, and WHAMO...score. They loved it! Thanks

>>Great, I'll try to vary the types of dog food that I offer. Maybe a vegan diet with clinch it. I did try the prickly pear thing, and WHAMO...score. They loved it! Thanks

I'd never even thought about picking those prickly pear berries until we adopted the tortoise & I found info that these are good for her.
I couldn't believe how much the box turtles like them.. these are box turtles who had refused strawberries so I was thrilled to pieces when I saw them go for the cactus berries. I'm glad they worked out for you too!
A lot of feeding for them is trial & error, just keep trying different things & see what happens.
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PHRatz

My experience is with Easterns which I think are the toughest to keep of the boxies.

You're right about the variety... you really can't beat it. I do add Mazuri once a week and the Easterns go nuts over it. Some people think this is an unnatural supplement but if you give it a little thought you'll see that it's very natural. It's grain based and if you ever get a chance to observe turtles/tortoises in the wild you will see that when the seasons warrant it these animals focus on the grain/seed part of weeds and plants when feeding.

Another note... Mazuri has come out with a boxie diet which does have a higher protein content than their tortoise diet but I'm staying with the tortoise diet for the boxies and continuing with the varied bug diet.

>>I have some captive bred Ornate box turtles. They are now approximately 4 inches TCL. Has anyone had success switching them to non-living food. I've been feeding them superworms, earthworms, crickets, grasshoppers, and many more bugs found in my yard. They also nibble on veggies and occasional fruit. I would really like to put them on a staple of easier food. I feed my other box turtles (assorted species) lowfat Science Diet dog food soaked with water. I supplement with insects and veggies/fruits. I've had great success with that, as well as Zoomed box turtle food. Please let me know your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with feeding Ornates. Do they ever take non-living food besides some fruits/veggies? I've read the books, but I want to know about your experience, please. Maybe I've just spoiled them. I can deal with that
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I didn't know that Mazuri has a box turtle diet on the market now. I'll look for that & give it a whirl. I'd forgotten that I also tried RepCal & Pretty Pets brand pellets. With these desert ornates the very fruity smelling pellets like RepCal & Pretty Pets just don't work. They'll turn their noses up at those every time.

As I read replies here I remembered something else that may help the OP here.
A woman who once was my boss 3-4 years ago told me this about her group of backyard box turtles which are all ornates too. I don't know exactly how many she has but it's a large group, much larger than my group.
She bought a bag of dry vegetarian dog food then wet it, mixed it up with chopped greens & other salad veggies from the grocery store & fed it to her group. Her group liked it.
I'd forgotten about this because it didn't work with mine. Mine will eat fruits/veggies but not every time I offer them.
I ended up feeding the dry vegan dog food to my pet rats because they're the only critters around here who would eat it so at least it wasn't wasted.
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PHRatz

Thanks for the tip...I'll give that a try. I have tried a few different types of dog food. I really try to stick with the higher quality stuff like Hills and Eukanuba, but I know that there are a few other reputable diets out there. I wonder if maybe your friend's turtles just were a little more hungry that yours and mine. It seems like we've had similar results. I also think that as they age they'll shift more towards veggies and fruit. I've noticed that trend with just about every species of turtle that I have. Thanks for your time.

I have to say that I'm suprised that you think Easterns are the toughest. I guess it's because Easterns are native to my area that I feel they are so hardy. It is very humid where I live, and I think that is reflected in my success with Gulf Coast, Eastern, and Three-toed. My difficulties are with the more arid varieties, namely the ornata duo. I don't even attempt keeping arid tortoises even though I probably could with a little effort. I just talked to a guy from Texas who laughed at my ornate problems. He too thought that Easterns are the most difficult. He theorized that the ornates may have "stuffy noses". The humidity, temperature, altitude, or combinations of all may be affecting their sense of smell. I thought that was an interesting point. I'll keep trying. I guess they'll never be like the others...gnawing on the cigarette butts that blow in from my neighbors yard. I appreciate the time, thanks.

i'd love to know where you've seen the box turtle diet by mazuri, and where i might be able to pick some up. thanks

Mikey, my male ornate boxie was fed nothing but "box turtle pellets" for the first 5 years of his life (not by me) and now his beak doesn't line up properly. He goes to the vet once a year to have it sculpted to how its supposed to be and he is fed on a rock, which seems to help alittle. Now (with me) he eats insects, veggies and fruits, pinkie mice every once in awhile (frozen/dethawed). I feed him usually every other day. One feeding he gets veggies and fruits, the next he gets bugs. He loves superworms, mealworms, hissing roaches, crickets, grasshoppers, earthworms, waxworms (as a treat only). For veggies he gets greens (danelion, collared, mustard, endive, escarole . . . i alternate between these), mixed up with little bits of carrot, squash, peas, green beans, zucchini various other veggies. For fruits he loves all kinds of berries, plums, peaches, pears his absolute favorite is cantalope. He gets alittle bit of apple every now and then. I give him a pinkie mouse every once in awhile, once or twice a month. He has no interest in any premade foods anymore. I tried seeing if he would eat some premade foods to make it easier on the petsitter but he won't touch them. Sometimes as a treat I give him alittle chicken or something, and he likes liver. That stuff he gets only a couple times a year.

Mel,
Mikey needs to get down here & meet his harem so he can teach them the fine art of eating more veggies than they do!
Remember when we took in the giant Charity? She was so hungry in the beginning that she would eat anything I put in front of her. Today she won't touch a turtle pellet at all.. she wants fresh foods & that's that!
She's still the most skittish of them all too but if she sees the dog plate out, she'll walk up & eat the food even if the dog is standing there eating his own food.
He leaves if she comes barging over. I have goofy animals.. lol
Now I have to be sure that the dog eats before she comes out for her walk or he's fed after she's put away for the evening.
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PHRatz

LOL maybe someday he will meet them all, lol I have a hard time getting him to eat greens, but veggies he likes. I usually cut it all up real small and mix it together and he eats it. I think he knows I won't give in and give him bugs if he doesn't eat his veggies

He doesn't like cactus pads that much. He loves most veggies though, fruits he goes nuts for. He takes cantelope over bugs. He won't eat veggies with powder on them though, so I powder his bugs with calcium and vitamins