Reptile & Amphibian Forums

while coming to this forum,seeking advise on the construction of my aborial,planted vivarium to house my greentree python,i have caught the dart frog bug and have just about finished construction on my second vivarium that i intend to house a pair of ????..thats why i am here.based on what i am looking for,my experience,and setup,im hoping some of your guys can give me some advise on a nice species to start out with.so,my cage is custom built but is about the same size and shape as a 29 gallon tall(maybe a little smaller).its a tall cage and i built it like this because i wanted to try and stay away from the ground dwelling species and im hoping to find something that will utilize the hight.i dont want to spend a lot of money on my first dart frogs so the more expensive species can be ruled out(not that i know the cost of them anyway,thats what you guys are for)i have done limited reasearch into the species and i came up with 2 that seem to have nice coloring,seem to use trees and plants rather than spend all day on the floor,they are Dendrobates imitator and Dendrobates ventrimaculatus.if these species are too hard for a first timer or too expensive,maybe you guys can reccomend another that is also nicly colored,and will not spend all day on the floor.also,once a species is suggested,maybe you can let me know the best way to house them(in pairs,groups,ect)a third concern is availability.it seems that almost all i see for sale are froglets.does anyone sell sexed adult pairs??im concerned about feeding because at least one of the species i looked at are very very small.i imagine that froglets of this species would be insanely small. could fruit flies and sprigtails be even too large for them??

Imitators and vents would use the space and can be kept in groups (like 5 for your setup). Vents are around $50 a piece and imitators are around $70. These are each thumbnail frogs. Another option would be Leucs. They are bigger, bolder, and less expensive ($30 a piece).

No frog is too small for springtails and any frogs you buy from a breeder should be big enough to eat fruit flies or they are selling them too young.
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

so youre saying that the leucs would climb as well?? im not looking for something that i may occasionaly find on the foliage and on the branches,but something that would commonly use them as much if not more than the ground.do leucs fit the bill??or should i go more towards thumbnails then?? to tell you the truth i do like the fact that the leucs are larger and the price is great,but if they are not gonna use the hight as much then maybe its not what i want.also,is it ok to start with a single frog or do they only do well in groups/pairs??i mean i do intend to get at least a pair but maybe to get started,is a single frog ok?also,where do they sell for 30 bucks??? i have seen them for 45 but not yet 30?more info please.thanks again.

If you want little athletes for the upper reaches, imitators fit the bill. A single frog won't be very interesting, however. The imitators are more bold in groups. If you can afford a group of four the chances of getting at least one of the opposite sex is pretty good, although some breeders say the ratio is skewed toward males. (Mine have been skewed toward females.) It's the interaction and breeding activity that is so much fun to watch. They are relatviely difficult to sex. One can sort of guess by body habitus, but the only sure way I know is witnessing the males calling and subesquent response from the females, which may include some interesting battles with egg and tad guarding if there is more than one lady present. In my experience, they are pretty resiliant to intimidation and athletic enough so no one seems to get injured, although for serious breeding, they should be kept in pairs, since the females tend to mess up each others' eggs and guard the tadpoles voraciously, and ultimate survival to "tadpolehood" when you let the parents raise them in a group, is lower. It's a show worth watching, however.

I think most reliable breeders, such as Patrick at Saurian are now offering only juveniles, not froglets, but when I got my original group from him several years ago as froglets, they did just fine together in a quarantine tank for a month or so, then continued to do well in the main tank. While they are tiny, they aren't the least bit "delicate," and in my view, are the most active in a group.

Shipping does add to the bill somewhat.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus

The above picture is a female with her arms around her eggs. She is sitting on the male, who is peering out on the right side.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus

I keep punching the send button--In the above picture, Mom is chasing one of her own froglets away from the brome where she is guarding a new tadpole. The froglet was named "Baby Huey," because it was fed secretely by a competing female, as well as by its own mother, so morphed out extra large. "Baby Huey" turned out to be a female.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus

yea patty,i really think the more i read about them,and now based on your awsome description,im really leaning heavily towards imitators.do you mind if i ask you two questions??one,exactly how prolific are they?? like,lets say i manage to get a sexually mature pair,in the correct enviornment,how many babies can that pair produce in a year?my second question is on feeding.you mentioned something about mothers feeding babies??is this correct??how do they go about doing that?i thought all tadpoles fed off whatever is in the water(algae,water insects,whatever)i never heard of them being fed and cared for by parents.can you describe what takes place here?like the mother actually catches food and offers it to the babies??do they eat it from her mouth??this is very interesting.what is the cost of an average froglet?

oh yea ,would you consider them a good beginner dart??i have 20 years herp experience and have kept several species of frog,but never a single dart.

The thumbnails such as imitators, the female feeds the tads by laying unfertilized eggs in the water-filled axil, although most will do fine if you chose to separate them and feed them algae and fish flake. Pumilios, on the other hand, are obligate egg feeders. They don't do well on anything else, so you are dependant upon the parents to accomplish this chore. The imitators will be sexually mature at only 5 months old, although it may take them a trial or two of egg laying to get it right.

The fun part is the male imitator calls the female and encourages her to lay her eggs, after which he fertilizes them, and both guard them from intruders and keep them clean. When the tads appear and hatch out, the male imitator (female with pumilios) backs up onto the hatching tads and they will crawl onto his back. The eggs are laid on a leaf or perhaps on the sides of the glass--not in water. He may carry more than one tad at a time. He deposits the tad into a brome leaf axil that holds water. He will check on the brome axils and call the female to feed the tad. (If more than one tad is deposited in a brome axil, they usually won't survive, since they are cannibalistic.) In the instance I mentioned, another female was also attracted, and fed the tad as well if the dominant mother wasn't in the vicinity. When she got caught at it, there was usually a big battle and a lot of chasing, head-butting, flinging and wrestling. While the dominant female always seemed to be the winner, it didn't intimidate the other female from trying again. Although there was a second male in the tank, both females chose the dominant male and ignored the other male, which just kept the hell out of the way. I never saw any male/male fighting, however.

The overall productivity isn't high when you leave them to their own devices in a group, due to the females messing up each other's eggs, the male inadvertently depositing more than one tad in the same place, etc., but you may get two or three new babies in a year by just leaving them alone. Since I am not into breeding for more frogs, I just let them do their own thing and enjoy the show. An alternative is to separate them into pairs and even remove the eggs and raise them yourself, which most comercial breeders do. I have found that in single pairs, they are not nearly as active. Somehow with these guys, competition seems to enhance their activities, but that's just my own experience, so may not reflect the general experiences of others.

Check with Saurian about the current price of imitators. There may be a waiting list, as well. You may find a less expensive source, but you should also consider shipping costs. Patrick charges about $35.00, to 45.00 if a special heat or cool pack is needed, evening this out among his other sales. I've seen shipping costs as high as $70.00 for the overnight deliveries, which are a MUST. Also be sure there is a live delivery guarantee that doesn't require you to pay shipping costs again for replacements should anything go wrong.
Link

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus