Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I Want to hear all your opions and what you think about Community Tnks. Im tiered of hearing Yes and No. What do YOU think and WHY do YOU think that? Im Thinking of DOing 1 but im not sure what species. So just tell me what you think and dont ask me what im thinking of keeping or any questions.

Big P

in the wild animals can get away from other animals so stress is lots less if any, but in a cage its different there is very little room in a cage compared to no cage at all. a cage can only be one temp. at a time and only one humidity at a time. therefor only one species should be kept at a time in the same cage. there are exception but these are very very rear. Thank about it this way have you ever seen two different species of lizards living in he same area like in the same bush or on the same rock or basking next to each other? I haven't.

jake

Personally I think it's a bad idea, unless you have critters that are all from the same geographical/geological area. All desert animals from a specific desert area......the U.S, north or south Africa,the middle east. Or tropical animals from the same jungle. Not something from South America and something from Africa. They all have DIFFERENT climactic conditions to consider, different seasonal conditions and so on. If you search long enough you may very well find things with the same living conditions that may coexist happily. Then and only then would I mix them. Otherwise you risk loosing one or more unnecessarily. And that is simply irresponsible. Just my opinion.

Quig

i know many people wont agree with me but i have had community tanks for years. i dont agree with it in some cases tho. for instance, when you have only a 10 of 20 gallon tank, or even a 50 for that matter. or when people ask if they can keep their leopard gecko and their iguana together. right now i have a community tank that is over six foot long. is very densly decorated, has a waterfall, plants, logs and plenty(and i mean plenty) of hides. i have 1.1 golden gecko, 1.0 green anole 0.1 longtail 0.0.1 barking tf, 0.0.1 green tf, 0.0.1 cuban masked tf, and 0.0.1 grey tf. they all get plenty of food (i watch to make sure they all eat and have an almost constant supply of fruit baby food that they lap. i have had no problems with this setup but you really need to be able to watch them and any problems that are noted must be caught early and fixed. it one animal isnt eating, they should be seperated, or any other potential problems.
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1.0.0 bearded dragon
1.1.0 green iguana
0.0.1 columbian tegu
0.1.0 knight anole(looking for male)
0.1.0 green anole
1.1.0 golden gecko
1.0.0 ball python
0.0.5 oriental firebellied toad
0.0.1 green treefrog
0.0.1 barking treefrog
0.0.1 cuban masked treefrog
0.0.1 gray treefrog
0.1.0 gulf hammock rat snake
0.1.0 eastern kingsnake
0.1.0 siberian husky

I have been researching this for almost half a year now non stop. So here is what I have found to date in simplified point form.

-The larger the enclosure the better. Provide hiding areas for at least the number of occupants there are, if not more.
-All occupants must come from the same continent and Area
-All occupants must come from the same Biome
-All occupants must be the same approximate size, or too large for another to eat.
-More than Ample ammounts of food and prey need to be offord to keep the peace.
-Cage must be cleaned as often as possible
-Realy plants are needed for natural bacteria
-The feeders used for one occupant must not be too large or dangerous to another (eating or in the physical manner).
-All reptiles should be seperated and treated for parisites for months ahead of time.
-You should have good sufficient knowledge of each reptile, and know how they live alone, in a single species tank, so that if a problem arizes in the mixed vivarium you can Diagnose it properly.

The reasons for each one are too much to go into detail about though. The part about only having animals from the same biome/continent/Area is because each animal has its own unique ammune system that can fend off only certain types of parasites and harmful bacteria.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizard
500 Escaped Crickets

I have been researching this for almost half a year now non stop. So here is what I have found to date in simplified point form.

-The larger the enclosure the better. Provide hiding areas for at least the number of occupants there are, if not more.
-All occupants must come from the same continent and Area
-All occupants must come from the same Biome
-All occupants must be the same approximate size, or too large for another to eat.
-More than Ample ammounts of food and prey need to be offord to keep the peace.
-Cage must be cleaned as often as possible
-Realy plants are needed for natural bacteria
-The feeders used for one occupant must not be too large or dangerous to another (eating or in the physical manner).
-All reptiles should be seperated and treated for parisites for months ahead of time.
-You should have good sufficient knowledge of each reptile, and know how they live alone, in a single species tank, so that if a problem arizes in the mixed vivarium you can Diagnose it properly.

Very good good points and I would agree to all except that I don't think that the same continent and area issue is that critical. If all animals are properly quarantined and debugged cross contamination is unlikely. Example, brookesia chameleons and dart frogs.

Hmmm,

As was explained to me by an experienced keeper, immune systems in animals from different areas are meant to combat different elements, including parasites, bacteria, natural toxins and etc. These could come from the land, the air or from different wildlife, be it co-habitants or prey. So, to generalize this, you should try and keep mixed species that are from close to the same area for maximum security helth, and well being.

As you mentioned, dart frogs (and even reed frogs) are a great mix. I'll have to go back and read that article that appeared in REPTILES MAGAZINE to recall exactly what was said on this topic. However I don't beleive, these rules always apply to all amphibians as well. They have different skin, and incredibly strong immune systems (that arn't even heavily affected by mold, proved highly deadly). Take snails for example... if your reptile will accept snails as a feeder, offer them. Even wild caught snails, because snails that have parasites, cannot transfer them to reptiles.

Again, this is all stuff that I have read or asked experienced herp owners. But THANKS! for replying. I was hoping to discuss this with someone because it is such an interesting topic!
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Kenyan Pigmy Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

Posted by: WillHayward at Sat Nov 5 23:44:17 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

"As was explained to me by an experienced keeper, immune systems in animals from different areas are meant to combat different elements, including parasites, bacteria, natural toxins and etc. These could come from the land, the air or from different wildlife, be it co-habitants or prey. So, to generalize this, you should try and keep mixed species that are from close to the same area for maximum security helth, and well being."

OK second try at this. previous well thought out response was accidently deleted through operator error and stupid computer tricks.

If an animals immune system has evolved to different elements as you say then simply having them out of their native habitat would be exposing them to elements they are not accustomed to and in effect be unhealthy for them. Even with CB specimens, I don't know if immune systems can evolve that quickly. I don't think domestic crickets, mealworms, superworms or fruit flies are the staple diet of very many wild reptiles. All of these food sources would expose the animal to different elements. Substrates, cage decorations, live plants, even the water you use could do that. I think that having healthy specimens to start with is more important than making sure they come from the same geographical region. I think that if healthy stock are used, a small frog from South America can cohabitate nicely with a small lizard from Madagascar, as long as you follow the other excellent suggestions you made in your original post.

"As you mentioned, dart frogs (and even reed frogs) are a great mix. I'll have to go back and read that article that appeared in REPTILES MAGAZINE to recall exactly what was said on this topic. However I don't beleive, these rules always apply to all amphibians as well. They have different skin, and incredibly strong immune systems (that arn't even heavily affected by mold, proved highly deadly). Take snails for example... if your reptile will accept snails as a feeder, offer them. Even wild caught snails, because snails that have parasites, cannot transfer them to reptiles."

I read that article as well, I'll try to find it. The picture I refered to however was in the issue with the fire salamander on the cover.

one word of caution about wild caught snails. The parasites that live off of snails may not be able to transfer to reptiles but snails are the intermediate hosts to very many parasites that can transfer to reptile, birds, and mammels. Its been a while since my college parasitology class but I seem to recall that snails are notorious intermediate hosts. Many Parasites go through several life cycle stages and will not develope in a snail but as soon as the snail is eaten by something the parasite matures. The only one I can remember (and I don't even recall the name of the parasite or the disease it causes, Shistosomiasis perhaps) involves sheep. I can see the life cycle in my head Mature parasite in sheep, eggs in sheep dung, sheep dung washed into stream to hatch, immature parasites find there way into a snail, snails on grass near stream edge that sheep eat, mature parasites in sheep. This is a serious parasitic worm that causes many thousands of deaths in humans around the world every year I also seem to recall someone saying that one of the problems with keeping Caiman lizards in captivity was that all they ate was snails. you couldn't deparasitize them because if you fed them WC snails the parasites just kept coming back. Domesticated snails for escargot would be an option but a very expensive one.

"Again, this is all stuff that I have read or asked experienced herp owners. But THANKS! for replying. I was hoping to discuss this with someone because it is such an interesting topic!

It is an interesting topic, and I think a very important one. Yes, there are people out there who will say "OK I will only keep one species per cage" when you tell them the hazards of mixing species. Unfortunately, many of them will simply say that to make you happy and go ahead an do it anyway with no guidance. I think one of the responsibilities of more experienced keepers is to help these people if they are bound and determined to mix species. It would be far better to suggest to them that an anole, a longtail grass lizard, a green tree frog and a gray tree frog can peacefully coexist in an appropriate tank rather than simply tell them no and have them go somewhere else and buy that Veiled Chameleon to put in with their leopard gecko and their kingsnake. One of the reasons I stopped reading the tree frog forum was because a bunch of 13 year olds (or at least they acted like it) would respond to any question of mixing species with responses like "never mix species you will only kill them" and "so you like killing frogs" and " sure mix them if you want to kill them." Mixing species can be done but it takes a great deal of effort. My general response to people is that I don't recomend it but if people are serious about doing it right thenm I will try to help them

Defenetly! Help will be givien when asked, but not befor a note of caution.

That snail thing is interesting. I'll have to read up on that because the info I had didn't go all too indepth. Non the less, my Mellers chameleon has not accepted any chameleons (or worm feeders for that matter). I have had my garden snails for about six months now. They are kept nicely and non have died. I doubt I can find someone willing to give them any deworming medacine though

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1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Kenyan Pigmy Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

it is entirely possible that any parasites, if any, that may be using your garden snails as intermediate hosts would not be of the type that would mature in a foreign chameleon anyway. A surprising number of parasites are host specific, although there are a good share that are rather opportunistic as well. Certainly if your chameleons are eating them and doing well there should be nothing to worry about. Besides, it is not in a parasites best interest to kill its host so mild infestation can often times be no problem. Cleanliness is your best defense against a lethal buildup in a case where treatment is not a viable option.

Indeed I have had them for months now and keep them in a clean container. They seem to be healthy, considering there arnt care information sheets for garden snails...

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1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Kenyan Pigmy Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

If done correctly with careful selection of inhabitants and a large enough enclosure to ensure a suitable environment for all involved then it is very possible.

Now, the picture in the latest issue of Reptiles magazine that won the free subscription is a travesty. It looks to be a 55 or 75 gallon tank although it could be larger, it's difficult to tell from the picture. According to the accompanying text the tank holds " several frogs, a salamnder, a softshell turtle, toads, swifts, skinks, geckos, earless lizards, and an agama" All are living well together according to the owner. By conservative count (three for the "several frogs" and 2 each for the animals listed in the plural tense) that gives us 16 animals which is way to crowded in my opinion even if it is a 125 gallon tank. They didn't say how long the tank had been up but my guess is less than 6 months if all the animals are still alive.