Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Talk about screwing the entire cornsnake morph population.

All I can say is WOW . The colors are unbelivable and they look like corns.

7/20/03 First time ever hatched f-2 gen Corndurans. original breeding was a Tangerine Honduran to a Snow Motley striped corn. The breeding was ahet male het to some female amel striped, snow and regular amel corns to get 25% Hondurans and 75% corns. This is what some of them came out like:
Striped/Motley/normwls aptterns of .... snow, amel, anery, nomals.
Pics will be after shed.

Pretty excited about these!!!

Luke

Was this your intent?

All I can say is WOW . The colors are unbelivable and they look like corns.

If they look like Corns, why not just breed corns in the first place?

Well for one everyones already bred corns . Besides these look better.
Actaully my intent was not really to screw up the corn population. Its already screwed up!

Well for one everyones already bred corns

Everyone? That's a little bit of an overgeneralization isn't it?

Besides these look better.

Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I guess you see these as better looking corns? Then again, they're not really corns.

Actaully my intent was not really to screw up the corn population. Its already screwed up!

How do you mean?

Chris
The cornsnakes is the most commonly bred snake in the world. If you didn't already know that then maybe you should keep your comments to yourself. Also the corns have already been crossed with emoryi (creamsicle corns) and other things and people still think they are getting pure corns.

The cornsnakes is the most commonly bred snake in the world. If you didn't already know that then maybe you should keep your comments to yourself. Also the corns have already been crossed with emoryi (creamsicle corns) and other things and people still think they are getting pure corns.

Corn X yellow rat hybrids were documented in the 1930's. That's plenty of elapsed time to thoroughly corrupt a gene pool.

Some people just need to wake up and smell the coffee.

kk

Actually most corn snake folks realize which morphs have emoryi in them and call them as such. Also there are plenty of corn folks who have no interest in the mixed morphs such as myself. I don't really see where you can compare the emoryi/guttata mixes to a cornduran anyway as despite the anti hybrid part of me I can at least see that emoryi is really close in the 1st place where hondo is not. But then again I see hybrid breeders trying to justify what they do all the time so it doesn't really surprise me. As long as you represent them as what they are I suppose there is no real harm in it but I just cant see making mutts that look like either species involved as there is too much room for shady deals as they get into the hobby. On the ones that look nothing like the parents at least their origin is known.

Phil

Well people (herpers) in Florida have been mixing corns for decades. What a lot of people think is pure in there newest corn morph truly is not. Look at people like Andy Barr who has so many damn things going on with the corns he sells even he can't tell you whats pure. and he is not the only one in florida. Go to the Tampa show and talk to the locale small breeders and you would be surprised what some oif them will tell you. It only makes sense since the Floridians pick these corns up in there back yard. I believe there are pure animals and impure. I don't care for ones I am not sure of . I amm 100% locale specif or nothing at all . There is no inbeween with me. It just does not make sense. That is why I only keep the emoryi albinos . The pure emoryi is a newer fad and one that can be at least traced as being pure locality. If you check with todays top corn producers who boast their corns are the real deal you have to step back and think where were these guys 10-15 years ago? There was a completely different crop of breeders back then and knobody can justify that their newest "Pewter hypo obliterated zig motley" is pure. I have been around the game for 35 years and any old timer can tell you the corn snakes have been mixed for years. WHERE DO YOU THINK ALL THOSE HYBRIDIZED CORNS WENT TO? Do you really believe they just died out and became extinct in the hands of breeders?? Check the post above where there was documented that the corns were hybridized back in 1930 . There is also a lot of intergration going on in the wild.
Bottom line most people who want you to believe that there are pure and impure corns are the ones selling the supposed pure ones in big numbers. While that may be a stiff generaliztion you would have to be a agnostic to believe otherwise. Take the kisatchee or creamsicles bred into things. Do you really trust that what you are getting is pure. Truth is we just don't know for sure anymore.
As far as your arguement that a corn that has emoryi blood in it is okay but a corn with honduran in it is not okay is a pure prejudice.

Actually I don't recall saying that the corn/hondo wasn't ok quite the opposite. If you check my post I said that as long as you represented them as what they were that was your business.

I'll go on the assumption that this was an honest mistake rather than you attempting to put words in my mouth.

And again I also pointed out that yes there were mixed corns but there are also many that are not. If you stay away from stuff with creamsicle in it you can pretty much remain clean.

My only problem with hybrids is when they appear like the adults as they can be misrepresented. Just because you say what they are when you sell them doesn't mean that John Q Public is going to do the same when he sells offspring later down the road. When they are like jungles or jurrasics that's different as you can tell what they are. Another thing with hybrids is that it seems that many folks do it simply as a means to breed whatever they have simply due to greed or being too cheap to buy mates to their existing collection. This practice is a far cry from someone actually trying to come up with an interesting new snake.

I'm not going to go into the hybrid pros and cons debate with you as in my experience hybrid breeders tend to think they are right and lack the ability to see the other side of the coin anyway but I will say I feel they have their place but should be policed well by the breeders to prevent misrepresentation. Although in truth that isn't really possible unless you don't ever sell any.

To each their own though and to the folks that like them great for you. I myself will pass though as I view them as a waste of time.

Phil

This is where I read it in your post.

"I don't really see where you can compare the emoryi/guttata mixes to a cornduran"

The assumption is the corns with emoryi blood is "okay" and the corns with hondo are not "okay" .I did not mean to mis-quote you but what other meaning could it have? You mentioned it again in your last post when you wrote the corns with emoryi are "at least" clean. You may not have used the word "okay" but I got the same meaning.

I thought it was pretty clear but I'll spell it out for the ones in the class that can't keep up.

I don't keep emoryi mixes as I feel that they are mutts however they are very similar to guttata. So similar that it has been debated whether or not they should be seperate therefore I don't see that mix as being even in the ballpark of mixing hondos with corns.

At least with the emoryi mix they are within the same genus where on the hondo mix they are not.

This is why comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges.

I implied nothing other than that despite what may have been mistakenly read into it.

Personally I am against both practices but as I have said to each their own. I am especially against it however when the resulting offspring look like one of the parent species for the reasons I mentioned before about them getting into the hobby as something they are not.

Phil

I think the "class" understood just fine.
Thank you for proving my point.

Obviously everyone didn't understand or you wouldn't have asked in the 1st place.

And I'm curious as to how your point was proven. Have the hondos somehow entered the same genus as the corns without anyones knowledge of it?

Sorry but comparing the breeding of subspecies to the breeding of two completely different genus is not the same regardless of how much you may try and convince yourself that it is.

As I said before I have no prob with you doing so as you seem to be calling them what they are. The problem occurs when someone doesn't and given enough time it will happen. This is simply human nature. I meant no offense to your hybrid breeding efforts but as I said earlier debating the other side of the coin is pointless as someone who will create hybrids is already under the assumption that it's perfectly fine to do. I believe the only point proven was mine and you have done a fine job in doing so.

Phil

You are are only capable of understanding your point of veiw.

I understand that the emoryi are more closly related. As I stated earlier that does not matter.They are still not pure corns and should be considered for what they are.

Your conviction that some hybrids are okay to cross and other are not is again purely prejudicial on your end. If you can't see that then this discussion is pointless and a waste of time.

That was my point and you have proven it for everyone to see.

The other thing you failed to see is that I am more of a strict purist than you are. That is why you failed to make the connection to my words.

A strict purist doesn't play with hybrids at all let alone create them. Anyone who would mix corn and hondo doesn't have a clue what a purist is. Although I am not surprised that you attempt to justify what you do with your breeding I am truly amazed that you actually think of yourself as a purist. lol That's a good one.

And I can only see my point of view huh? Funny but I seem to remember saying that you were certainly free to do what you want and that so long as you called them what they were then I had no problem with you doing it. Seems to me like I can see the other side of it pretty well where you on the other hand can't even admit that mixing two different genus is indeed different than mixing subspecies. In the wild some subspecies mix and that is accepted as fact where in the wild different genus do not mix. Now have I ever said that emoryi/corns are better than anything else or even acceptable in my book? No I haven't as a matter of fact I recall saying I was against them both. But they certainly are much more closely related than the Frankenstien mutts you are throwing out.

Talk about re reading someones posts how about going back over mine and try some reading comprehension on them. My point has not changed yet I keep having to repeat it as like I said hybrid mixers can't see any side other than that they are right.

Phil

Sorry to butt in on your discussion, but I just wanted you to know that I used to like hybrids. However, as I began to realize that hybrids would totally screw up the genetics of all captive snakes within the next few decades, I became totally against hybrids. If someone like me can eventually convert, then there's hope for some of these individuals in this forum to see the light as well.

I used to keep 300 rosy boa breeders and as you are probably aware of that the name of the game with rosys is locale specific animals. Well about 10 years back a bunch of unscruplous breeders from out west started selling their screwed up locales to east coasters as something else. They charged sums of $250-$300 for rosys that are supposed to be locale specific. Since this is not a snake found on the east coast herpers were duped. Several years later the herpers realized that the rosys they had were worthless crosses while the whole rosy market crashed and prices dropped to such low rates it would be unfeasable for anyone to make money from them.

Well guess what. The rosy locale specific animals suvived and are still around but the prices are so low that nobody gives a hoot about them. The rosys are live bearing and have small clutches at best so they are not a money maker. Now there are less people collecting them from the wild and the few people breeding them are breeding them for the right reasons... for what they are and not what they cost.

Isn't this really what we are talking about here ... your pocket books?

Maybe the same will happen to the corn market. But probably not. One thing for sure by being anti-hybrid and posting on the hybrid forum you are furthering the cause to speed things along.

Actually my wallet is the last thing I think of when buying and raising animals. I keep them simply because I want to and am not one of the ones who believe that it's easy to make a ton off of them. If you are into the hobby for the money then you are in it for the wrong reasons. Folks getting into it becuase of percieved profit are one of the biggest problems the hobby faces. And my posting on the hybrid forum does nothing to harm the hobby whatsoever. Don't know where you pulled that one out of. Guess it came from the same place as the pointless rosie referance.

Phil

I just don't understand it. Why do people who are against hybrids even come to this forum? I mean surely they must be intelligent enough to realize that this forum has seen and fought off countless posts from people trying to change our minds. I don't even own a hybrid or post here and I have noticed it. It seems to me that if you are against hybrids then the last place you'd want to be is a forum full of people discussing and posting pics of hybrids. I guess it just seems to me like they are asking for trouble to be started.

Patrick
Tarantula World

Not seeking trouble out at all Patrick however if you want to be able to identify hybrids when you come across them then it helps to stay on top of what's coming out and what they look like. Also if you will notice I have not been attacking hybrids at all but was merely pointing out that comparing a guttata emoryi mix to a guttata hondo mix are two very different things. I have repeatedly said that if hybrids are what float your boat go right ahead just represent them for what they are. The only problem I have with them other than personally not wanting any is that this practice is not always adhered to. Had you actually read my earlier posts perhaps you would have understood that point. Or perhaps I didn't make it clear enough but I feel I have been quite clear.

Phil

yep!

As I can only assume your pathetic attempt at humor is directed at me since I happen to disagree with you let me clear something up for you. Trolling would be more like if I were to post a thread about why do all you hybrid fans waste your time breeding genetic garbage or something along those lines. What I infact did however was to question your logic in comparing a corn / emoryi mix to a mix that was not even within the same genus. You have failed to come up with a logical argument so you have chosen to go the childish jab at your opponent route. Nice try but completely expected.

If however you want to accuse me of something try something I actually did such as pointing out to you that your comparison was off base or pointing out the potential bad from breeding hybrids. I would imagine that you could remain mature about the disagreement if you applied yourself despite your obvious hurt feeling due to my not embracing you newest mutts. But then again if I were to expect that I would probably have to question why a mutt breeder feels the need to hide behind a fictional name rather than actually saying who they are as well.

Phil

Phil,
Corns have been hybridized with yellow rats since 1933. The offspring were fertile. Here is a literary reference for you:

Lederer, V.G. 1950. Ein bastard von Elaphe guttata (Linne)- x Elaphe qu. quadrivittata (Holbrook)- und dessen ruckkreuzung mit der mutterlichen ausgangstart. Der Zoologische Garten. 17:235-242.

An even scarier reference is cited below. Dr. HB Bechtel (the guy who produced the first albino corns in captivity) also hybridized corn X yellow rat in 1958. The first albino corns were hatched a few years later.

Bechtel, H.B., and J. Mountain. 1960. Interspecific hybridization between two snakes of the genus Elaphe. Copeia. 2:151-153.

So what's my point here? Think about it. Corn X yellow rat hybrids were produced even before the first albino corns. Look how widespread the albinos have become. Do you seriously think there aren't any corn/yellow rat crosses out there today? Just something to think about.

kk

So what's my point here? Think about it. Corn X yellow rat hybrids were produced even before the first albino corns. Look how widespread the albinos have become. Do you seriously think there aren't any corn/yellow rat crosses out there today? Just something to think about.

kk

Sorry but I still fail to see your point. If you bother to read mu posts I never once said there wern't hybrids around in the corn lines and although you provided an interesting tidbit of info I was already quite aware of this. Where you lost is is I don't recall saying there weren't any corn / yellow rat crosses... oh yeah that's probably because I didn't. lol

The point I have made repeatedly and still stand by ( despite the inability of some of you folks to grasp it ) is that a mix of 2 Elaphe ( Pantheropis now ) is far different and far closer than mixing Elaphe and Lampropeltis. You know that whole different genus thing.

Phil

Where you lost is is I don't recall saying there weren't any corn / yellow rat crosses... oh yeah that's probably because I didn't. lol

Well what you DID say was the following.......(click here if you want to read the post in its entirety)

And again I also pointed out that yes there were mixed corns but there are also many that are not. If you stay away from stuff with creamsicle in it you can pretty much remain clean.

This is false! There are plenty of other corn 'hybrids' out there that have no creamsicle blood. That was my point, I was attempting to open your eyes to the big picture.

Just for the record, I HATE HYBRIDS! But I try not to make an A$$ out of myself publicly about it.

kk

Well by referring to the creamsicle ones yes I did leave out some of the mixes but I truly didn't feel like going down the list of them all. If you would prefer though we can name them all off.

I do however see the point you were making more clearly now and perhaps misinterpeted your meaning to begin with.

However before you go around tossing out statements such as you try not to make an a$$ out of yourself try no to be quite so nit picky as that is the end result.

Phil

However before you go around tossing out statements such as you try not to make an a$$ out of yourself try no to be quite so nit picky as that is the end result.

Whoops... by that statement I meant that I don't go around arguing with the hybrid breeders and try to convince them they are wrong. There is no right or wrong with hybrids in my opinion. By pointing out the inaccuracies in your post I was trying to enlighten you, not insult you.

If you want to discuss right and wrong, there is probably a new WalMart Supercenter coming soon to a town near you..... (and that is the main problem we face, not hybrids)

Thanks for listening to my rants.

kk

As I pointed out before I was not attempting to point out to hybrid breeders that they were wrong. I was merely questioning the comparison.

I also meant no insult however I don't need any enlightenment as I am already aware of the crosses out there. Perhaps I took your statement the wrong way instead of how it was intended but it came across as a tad insulting.

Either way no harm no foul. At least we agree on the hybrid subject overall.

Phil