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I recently got my BP to take f/th (yaaay!), and I now am able to buy a decent amount of frozen mice at a time and just thaw when needed. When feeding live, I'd give him several mice in one session, as it was the most convenient (for me).
But, I have to wonder... might it be a little better to feed him less but more often? Instead of 3-4 a week, why not one every other day? Seems like it would reflect a more natural rate.
Pros/Cons??
No keep it the way youir doing it
Have you been into snakes for long. I ask because you know that snakes in general have a slow digestion rate and they need the time to digest before they should eat again. But in the wild who knows how much they eat from day to day, but all the info we have on them suggests they eat weekly or so. (with exeption)
good luck
steve
Actually, in nature, snakes tend to eat a single, very large meal, and will then sit and digest until their hungry again. Some of your larger pythons will only feed once or twice a year.
Snake metabolisms are MUCH different from ours, and feeding more often than every 5 days is actually detrimental to your snakes digestive system.
Give him a good meal (a single prey item the same thickness as his body) and then let him digest. A feeding schedule of 7-10 days is appropriate for most snakes.
It might seem like we're just being lazy by feeding our pets once a week, but in reality its better for their health.
I agree if you are feeding a large item. My biggest guy can eat a 500g rat but then will not eat for a month, instead I feed him 200g rats and he eats every week. Hatchlings until they reach 500g I feed every 3-4 days and if the snake will only accept one mouse per feeding I feed them on the same schedule as a hatchling. I don't think that by feeding small meals 3-4 days apart you will damage your snakes digestive system, feeding a 200g rat every 3-4 days might but I doubt the snake would even accept that, a ball anyways.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com
Depends on the snake. I find that feeding my mouse eaters twice a week 2 mice works well. Some snakes will only eat one or two mice at a time so then offering twice a week is good. If your snake will take 4 at a meal I would say why not, I feed twice a week or more anyway for the hatchlings anyway so it isn't an inconveniance to thaw out some mice while I'm at it.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com
I prefer to feed 1 smaller item per day and as many as 5 times a week. Smaller meal keeps animal hungry and wanting more and as hatchlings builds up their metabolism so they get use to eating 3-5 times per week. I find larger meals get them too full for next meal and they may wait 2-4 weeks plus to eat again. Animal seems to grow fastest this way.
I suggest and recommend this for all my customers.
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GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles
http://imageevent.com/asfreptiles
I agree. I have tried it several ways and I try to feed every other day 1 mouse. They will get big fast, and have a killer feeding responce... most of the time. Some snakes will have nothing to do with this, and will freak out and only eat every week. It really depends, but if its taking one or two every few days, I say give it to them.
Now I want you people above my post to site the sources that said it will actually hurt the snake to eat smaller more often. I dont buy that for a second. Its easy to fall for asumptions that some one came up with... base it on facts here please. I cant say I have ever killed or harmed a snake by feeding it small meals alot. Now, not to say feeding a BP pinky mice is a good idea, but I still dont see how it would hurt it.
Ben
There aren't a whole lot of documented studies when it comes to ball pythons so you probably wont get any "sited information" - my vet still frowns on the once a week concept saying that balls need to have time to digest thier food as well as empty stomach time before feeding. I got a snake thru a rescue once - the owner didn't want it anymore because it kept regurging - he was feeding it a mouse a day - as soon as I got the snake on a once a week schedule it was fine. Of course I suppose if you are feeding small mice and they digest it in 24 hours then it would be safe to feed it again a couple of days later. But balls do not require a lot of feeding to be healthy - anything over twice a week is just power feeding - they don't need it.
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Tosha 
"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
It really is not a power feeding thing for me... its what works for my time. I can go up, drop a mouse in each cage and I see them strike it, and go on with my night. I wait 2 days and do it again (some times 3 or 4... or even 5 or 6... but usually 2 or 3). they are not huge mice, and thats really the problem. If I could get good size mice around here I would feed 2 times a week... but all I can get are little shrimps, so I have to feed more often if I hope to see any growth.
I woundered back a while ago about how often I feed them and what really was an effective schedule... I feed many animals for about 6 months on different sizes and schedules. I got 4 import babies that where all eating well with good feeding insticts... all females. I fed one once a week, one mouse. No noticable growth in 6 months... about 40g... I will have to look now. I fed one a mouse about every 4 days (every other feeding for my other animals) and it grew about 20g a month. I fed two others about every other day unless something came up or I ran out of food... they started at 200g and at the end of 6 months one was about 650g and the other 600g. Thats 75g a month.
How much they ate vs how much consumed (assume mice are 20g):
SNAKE MEALS WEIGHT GAIN - BURNT OR WASTED
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#1 - 80g/month - 6.5g/month - 73.5g (91.8%)
#2 - 160g/month - 20g/month - 140g (87.75%)
#3 - 300g/month - 75g/month - 225g (75%)
#4 - 300g/month - 67g/month - 233g (77.6%)
Now what does this NOT show? how much weight is gained by feeding one 60g rat a week. I am sure I could go look at my records and find out, but I dont know that I will have weights that often for those snakes. Other problems with this... likely many but one that is clear is its a small group, and what could have been the control? A rat feeder I guess, but its hard to have a reliable control with this small of a group.
What DOES this show? I think it shows that the more they eat the more they waste by volume... but the more they eat the more the grow by volume. Looks like maybe about 80% to 90% of the meal is burned or wasted, while 10% to 20% goes tword the weight and growth. Is this a bad thing for FEMALE BPs to have??? They will breed it off soon anyhow.
Maybe I just have some fat snakes now, but I think I am going to have more babies. Sure in 15 years when mine die of a heart attack, and your lives to 20 you can say I told you so. I am OK with that... at least mine go to go out to eat all the time
Ben
Well, copied and pasted abstracts. These can be found on pubmed for anyone whos interested in doing their own search, or wants to read the entire research article.
Physiol Zool. 1997 Mar-Apr;70(2):202-12.
Determinants of the postfeeding metabolic response of Burmese pythons, Python molurus.
Secor SM, Diamond J.
Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, University of California, Los Angeles 90095-1751, USA.
The relatively large meal sizes consumed by sit-and-wait-foraging snake species make them favorable for investigating specific dynamic action, the rise in metabolic rate associated with digestion. Hence, we measured O2 consumption rates (VO2) before and up to 20 d after Burmese pythons (Python molurus) either had only constricted and killed rodent meals or had also been allowed to consume meals ranging in size from 5% to 111% of their body mass. Postprandial VO2 peaked within 2 d at a value that increased with meal size, up to 44 times standard metabolic rate for the largest meals. In addition to being the largest known magnitude of postprandial metabolic response, this also exceeds the factorial increase in VO2 during peak physical activity for all studied animals except perhaps racehorses. Specific dynamic action, calculated from the extra VO2 above standard metabolic rate over the duration of digestion, increased with meal size and equaled 32% of ingested meal energy. The allometric exponent for body mass was 0.68 for standard metabolic rate, 0.90 for peak postprandial VO2, and 1.01 for specific dynamic action. Specific dynamic action is higher, and standard metabolic rate is lower, in sit-and-wait-foraging snake species than in actively foraging snake species. This suggests that sit-and-wait-foraging snakes, which consume large meals at long and unpredictable intervals, reduce standard metabolic rate by allowing the energetically expensive small intestine and other associated organs to atrophy between meals but thereby incur a large specific dynamic action while rebuilding those organs upon feeding.
1: Physiol Biochem Zool. 2002 Jul-Aug;75(4):360-8.
The effects of fasting duration on the metabolic response to feeding in Python molurus: an evaluation of the energetic costs associated with gastrointestinal growth and upregulation.
Overgaard J, Andersen JB, Wang T.
Department of Zoophysiology, Institute of Biology, Building 131, Aarhus University, Denmark. Johannes.Overgaard@biology.au.dk
The oxygen uptake of Python molurus increases enormously following feeding, and the elevated metabolism coincides with rapid growth of the gastrointestinal organs. There are opposing views regarding the energetic costs of the gastrointestinal hypertrophy, and this study concerns the metabolic response to feeding after fasting periods of different duration. Since mass and function of the gastrointestinal organs remain elevated for several days after feeding, the metabolic increment following a second meal given soon after the first can reveal whether the metabolic costs relate to the upregulation of gastrointestinal organs or merely the metabolic cost of processing a meal. Eight juvenile pythons were kept on a regular feeding regime for 6 mo after hatching. At the beginning of the metabolic measurements, they were fed mice (20% of body mass), and the metabolic response to similarly sized meals was determined following 3, 5, 7, 14, 21, 30, and 60 d of fasting. Our data show that the metabolic response following feeding was large, ranging from 21% to 35% of ingested energy (mean=27%), but the metabolic response seems independent of fasting duration. Hence, the extraordinarily large cost of digestion in P. molurus does not appear to correlate with increased function and growth of gastrointestinal organs but must be associated with other physiological processes.
Am J Physiol. 1997 Mar;272(3 Pt 2):R902-12.
Effects of meal size on postprandial responses in juvenile Burmese pythons (Python molurus).
Secor SM, Diamond J.
Department of Physiology, University of California, Los Angeles, School of Medicine, 90095-1751, USA.
Pythons were reported previously to exhibit large changes in intestinal mass and transporter activities on consuming meals equal to 25% of the snake's body mass. This paper examines how those and other adaptive responses to feeding vary with meal size (5, 25, or 65% of body mass). Larger meals took longer to pass through the stomach and small intestine. After ingestion of a meal, O2 consumption rates rose to up to 32 times fasting levels and remained significantly elevated for up to 13 days. This specific dynamic action equaled 29-36% of ingested energy. After 25 and 65% size meals, plasma Cl- significantly dropped, whereas plasma CO2, glucose, creatinine, and urea nitrogen increased as much as a factor of 2.3-4.2. Within 1 day the intestinal mucosal mass more than doubled, and masses of the intestinal serosa, liver, stomach, pancreas, and kidneys also increased. Intestinal uptake rates of amino acids and of D-glucose increased by up to 43 times fasting levels, whereas uptake capacities increased by up to 59 times fasting levels. Magnitudes of many of these responses (O2 consumption rate, kidney hypertrophy, and D-glucose and L-lysine uptake) increased with meal size up to the largest meals studied; other responses (Na+-independent L-leucine uptake, plasma Cl-, and organ masses) plateaued at meals equal to 25% of the snake's body mass; and still other responses (nutrient uptake at day 1, passive glucose uptake, and plasma protein and alkaline phosphatase) were all-or-nothing, being independent of meal size between 5 and 65% of body mass. Pythons undergo a wide array of postprandial responses, many of which differ in their sensitivity to meal size.
Basically... in the shortrun pythons don't seem to gain anything by eating smaller meals or larger meals. They expend the same amount of energy upregulating their digestive tissues becaues THAT IS HOW THEY ARE PROGRAMED.
I would be curious how much snakes are fed (as in grams per month) between the two differnt feeding strategies. Since physiological studies don't seem to point out why asf's snakes grow faster, I wonder if it really is just feeding more mass per month.
"Basically... in the shortrun pythons don't seem to gain anything by eating smaller meals or larger meals."
Well I read it all, besides the fact that this is not really even close to the same snake (grow much faster and need much larger meals, and time to digest) we will just pretend they are very much the same. I didnt catch anywhere where they changed the meal size. Now I did catch where they changed the duration between meals, and found that really it had little to no effect on the snakes. So one might say (though unproven) that because we can not get a snake to eat two 60g rats a week, but we can get them to eat one 30g mouse every 2 days, and it has no effect on how the snake will digest it in the end you will have a snake that takes in more food at the end of a month. Thats really my point.
Ben
After reading everything below, I have some things to add...
I try to feed every other day, and if a snake does not eat, it will have to wait until I feed in 2 more days. I have some that will often skip meals... I have some that will never miss a beat. Now I also dont feed them big meals and I feel I give them time to digest their meals. I have to agree feeding them 4 or 5 times a week is a ton... and I also feel that is most likely an exageration on someones part. I dont know that I would ever try to feed a snake every day. 5 times a week is really just about every day.
Ben
It may not be documented that balls live shorter lives when they're powerfed, but I'm pretty sure its well documented that Pythons have much slower metabolisms. Why risk the health of your snakes for your convenience and pocketbook? I personally think your method is a surefire way to produce fast-growing, ultimately obese snakes for all your customers.
Tried and true is one appropriately sized meal every 7-10 days for a healthy, growing snake.
I'm curious if you have any problems with snakes regurging? Or are the meals so small they just never stop digesting????
But I have no problem with that! There seem to be two camps on the subject.
Just as a little background- yes, I do have experience with snakes. I've only had a BP for a few months, but I have had boas for years. What's making me question changing my feeding technique is a couple things:
1- He only eats mice. I've tried rats a few times, and no luck yet. The small size of the food allows me to store more in my freezer at one time. With the boas, I pretty much had to use whatever I bought right away (lack of storage or house mates that weren't into sharing the freezer).
2- It's no problem for me to thaw out a mouse every other day. My only qualm with thawing out, say, 4 mice at once is that they may get wasted. Sometimes he gets spooked (the best way I can explain it) and will only eat half of what I can offer him. I'd rather not have to throw any in the garbage!
Thanks for the input, all. I wish there was more of an overwhelming sense of agreement here on the subject. I certainly don't want to disrupt his digestive process, nor do I want to waste mice. *sigh*
Too much time and money. I only recommend this if you are feeding live. Best of luck.
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GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles
http://imageevent.com/asfreptiles
Wait a second now. If this is how they eat in the wild, and thats why you do it, then uh...why do you only recommend this method if it is cheap? Only feed them what you feel is the proper method if it doesn't pinch the profit?
How often do little normal males you produce eat?
Are your adults on the same diet, or do you get them big, and then put them on a maintenence diet?
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Davey Giltner
they are not in the wild. Things do not work the same as they do in the wild. No need to hide all the time... no need to eat the bigest meal... I am still waiting for the studies to be shown that feeding smaller meals more oten will hurt them.
So far the only studys shown above show that the same size meals more often take the same toll on the snakes. NOT what we are looking for.
Ben
with all due respect... again, no such thing as power feeding. Animal will eat if hungry and will not eat if not hungry or satisfied. I have and many others have ball pythons that dont eat for 3, 6, 9, or 15 months. I tell those who question "why wont my ball python eat, he/she has not eaten in 5 months." Simply feed it when it is willing to eat.
You and many others including myself have not done enough research to say that feeding them 3+ times a week is bad for their health 20-40 years from now. I am not saying this is good or best for the snakes health. I am simply saying feed it when it is willing to eat and feed it smaller meals.
I think your personal doctor and many other doctors would recommend that for yourself and your diet. Instead of 1 huge meal a day. OR 3 big meals a day. Most would suggest 5-6 smaller meals for humans.
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GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles
http://imageevent.com/asfreptiles
With all do respect, you're saying it's ok to let your 120lb 8yr old child eat 2 frozen pizzas because they will?? I guess ALL of the overweight people on the planet are justified in being 200-300lbs overweight because they won't stop themselves from eating.. And as far as 3-5 small meals per day, that's the schedule bodybuilders use when they are trying to pack on the weight.. I know I haven't "been here long", but just because you have, doesn't mean anything to me.
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Joe Lydon
Actually most animals (out of sure habit or instinct) will eat if food is made available to them - dogs cats fish people lots of them will eat themselves to the point of sickness or death. 1/3 of our nation is considered obese - a McDonalds on every corner makes food a bit more available and people are stuffing their faces - not because they are really hungry - but the food is there.
Yes for people it is best to have several small meals a day as most human food is digested in a matter of hours - but a ball python will take several days to digest even a small mouse. Thus the need to give them more time between feedings. And it is not good or healthy to constantly have food in your stomach. As it's been pointed out there are studies of other pythons that over feeding does shorten their lifespan - so why not err on the side of caution - they don't need the food so why give it?
Remember that just because they eat does not mean that they are hungry. I have girls that will eat everyday if I'd feed them but if they are lucky they might get a left over from someone else during the week - I feed only once every 5-7 days - they are healthy growing and eating great! Nothing wrong with it and I'm not causing any potential problems.
Andre - you have beautiful quality animals - I know you want to do what is best for them.
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Tosha
"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
My big female, will eat anything at anytime, no matter how much food she has in her already, I only feed her 2 rats a week, My friend has a ball that ate six rats in one sitting! He was so proud, until he awoke to find it dead with 2 rats regurged and on stuck in its throat, I am not sure if the six rats is what killed it but I think that it may have had something to do with it, I only feed my hatchlings once a week, and they grow just fine. Try it if you want and don't take it so personal. Most of the people here have alot of experience and care deeply about their ball pythons, I cried when one of my hatchlings died after I watched it hatch, and many people are just trying to help you, by telling you not to feed more than your supposed to, but if you keep an open mind most of the people on this forum will as well.
thanks
tony butler
Andre - I just popped thru web sites of several of the "Big Boys" and on every single one of them they recommend feeding once or as often as twice a week for hatchlings - some even go so far as to warn against overfeeding as it it is unhealthy. So I wonder where you learned that 3-5 times a week is ok?
I am not attacking your "opinion". When I see someone that is doing somthing that could be detrimental to their animals I will call them on it. Same as if they were using a hot rock - feeding live - or using cheap pine substrate.
There is no reason to feed 3-5 times a week - it is not healthier or even good for the snake - so there could only be one motive behind it. If I'm wrong on the motive part then I apologize.
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Tosha
"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
I just stumbled across this post...and I have a few things to add:
1. Don't compare an ectotherm with an endotherm! Reptiles are not mammals, so you cannot relate your dietary concerns with that of a snakes.
2. Don't compare wild balls to captive balls. Not only are wild balls often ridden with parasites and subject to disease and competition, but food is scarce and they must travel long distances in some situations to find that food.
3. My ball pythons sit in a tub all day...their food is handed to them once a week or so. They eat it. They move very little. Water is always available! Catch my drift!
4. Since there is no evidence suggesting that feeding a ball python more than once a week is detrimental to the health of the snake, I would suggest you base feeding decisions on the individual snake. I have a female that is 1000 grams and 4 years old, she eats two small rats a week. She was 600 grams back in March and was very underfed. She was fed once a month for most of her life and you could feel every bone in her body. I have a male that is 1200 grams and 3 years old. The only time he will eat more than one meal a week is right before he goes off feed for a few months. He is a sporatic eater, and loves small food items...he never loses body condition. If your snake is becoming obese, decrease it's food. If it is lean increase it's food. Obesity is believed to be a cause of decreased lifespan in pythons, so watch your snake! Just because a snake is fed more often doesn't mean it will become obese. Snakes like people are all different!
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*Amy*
>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles
Though I am sorry the conversation took some of the turns it did, I still managed to learn a few things. Thanks to everyone who helped pitch in info to help me understand things better.
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