Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am trying to buy regular worms online. I don't know what red worms are or wax wroms and can't find a pic of them. I want little waroms like the ones you find in your yard. What are they called?

Also go by wigglers or night crawlers.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

Red worms are small thin worms you find in the garden as opposed to nightcrawlers.Wax worms are fat 1" white grubs used for trout fishing bait.I get mine at the tackle shop and my turtles never had any parasitic problems like I've read about from not getting them at a pet store.Btw,Heat Pads Kill USE CERAMIC HEAT LAMPS

How do heatpads kill?

Unless you attach it to some sort of dimmer switch to allow you to regulate the temperature, they get way to hot. Many people have had their animals get burned or cooked with UTH.
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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly Snake
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

heat pads don't work well for turtles. Turtles' blood picks up the bulk of radiated heat and circulates it where needed. You won't find much of that in the plastron (bottowm shell), so the plastron doesn't prove a very efficient conductor. There are more vessels in the darker carapace (top shell) and, of course, in the head and limbs. This is why a heat source from above works best. If that weren't the case, you'd see turtles basking upside-down at the lake.

And you know this how????

From a common sense point of view they pick up just as much heat from the ground surface and in some cases even more than radiant heat.

There are many applications where heat pads work great but the cautions are justified.

>>heat pads don't work well for turtles. Turtles' blood picks up the bulk of radiated heat and circulates it where needed. You won't find much of that in the plastron (bottowm shell), so the plastron doesn't prove a very efficient conductor. There are more vessels in the darker carapace (top shell) and, of course, in the head and limbs. This is why a heat source from above works best. If that weren't the case, you'd see turtles basking upside-down at the lake.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I think it depends on what type of UTH you buy & how you set it up.
I have a Dragon's Lair heat pad under one end of my box turtle tub but the heat mat never actually touches the bottom of the tub. It's not a stick on the bottom type of UTH because my tub is plastic so anything that would stick to the plastic would melt it. The tub has small legs so it's not flush with the table top & the legs prevent it from touching the heat pad, the pad sits about a half inch away from the bottom of the tub.
It's almost paper thin & when I bought it from Big Apple I emailed them.. they replied & said that the Dragon's Lair is made to work this way under plastic.
I also have a lot of padding inside the tub so the heat eminating from under the tub isn't all that hot. It's cozy for them but it's not hot. I am aware that reptiles can burn so that's why I set everything up this way. It's working for us so far.
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PHRatz

Turtles are designed to catch heat from above. That's why carapaces have greater vessel densities than do plastra - for mobilizing heat gained.

Turtles naturally take most of their heat from above. Even many tortoise species bask in the sun by morning, before the ground has warmed greatly, then retire during midday when the rays and substrate alike would cause overheating.

In captivity, when an above heat source is used, the air around the turtle is heated. When a turtle warms itself from underneath, you might get a 33C animal breathing a significantly lower air temp. That's not very natural, or healthy. Just stick a piece of slate under a bulb if substrate warmth is a keeper concern.

"There are more vessels in the darker carapace (top shell) and, of course, in the head and limbs."

Many, many eastern box turtles have completely black plastrons (bottom shells). It is quite common to find easterns with all black, mostly black, and just plain darker plastrons(in comparison to carapace coloration).

When addressing general ideas like heat pads, I tend to gravitate to a more overall address of turtles since they're not that dissimilar; thinking outside of the box. Get it? For clarity's sake, that's past the scope of this thread. Whups.

Pale plastra would appear to be an ancestral characteristic in emydid species. That would put dark plastra as derived characteristics, meaning, they are somehow differently adaptive. With easterns, perhaps the generally dark carapace is a co-phenotype that is linked to the beneficial carapace color, perhaps it served a purpose a hundred thousand years ago, or perhaps it serves a purpose now that we just don't recognize. But, it's purpose is not heat absorption, so it doesn't relate to the point I was getting at. Do you agree with the point?

I just realized I said...

With easterns, perhaps the generally dark carapace is a co-phenotype that is linked to the beneficial carapace color...

That should have read ...the generally dark plastron...

Apologies for any confusion caused.

Ben,

I don't really agree with the point you're trying to make, because the logic is flawed.

Many basking spots are chosen because the substrate is also absorbing heat and radiating it back, albeit to a lesser degree. Why bask on a rock if the leaf litter (or whatever) nearby is also in the sun? At this time of year especially, the substrate may indeed be considerably warmer than the air temperature.

In the summer heat, turtles create their forms in shade to avoid over heating...plastron in contact with cooler soil, carapace exposed to air temperatures. That would indicate that their plastron plays an equal role in temperature regulation, and in the case of box turtles, plastron coloration probably doesn't have anything to do with it.

bleeds into another interesting aspect of heat exchange. Substrate is commonly used by reptiles as a heat sink rather than a heat provision. Substrate is used for this in the sun as well as in the shade.

When a turtle sits over a spot, the spot begins to cool. This is in part because of heat conduction to the plastron (which is being stressed as significant in this thread) and in greater part because of heat naturally disappating in all directions from a now-shaded spot.

A point that holds a higher ground temp than air temp is wamer because of the radiation that point is receiving. When a box turtle moves onto such a point, the heat received by the plastron from the substrate won't last long, but the original heat source, radiation, will persist, and will be able to continue heating the box turtle sitting over the previously heated ground.

We see that in a natural setting ventral heat doesn't come indefinitely. Only in captivity do we see this happen (enter the heat pads). Turtles are geared for dorsal heat acquisition because that is where the persistent heat source is located in a natural setting. Only in captivity do we see a persitent reversal of the heat source happen (enter the heat pads).

Lizards and snakes can more efficiently mobilize heat received from the substrate because of a more exposed ventral circulatory arrangement than exists in turtles. I'm not saying that plastral heating does not occur in turtles, merely that it will not likely prove the most efficient means of warming/basking for most captive turtles. I would have figured you to agree here, since your animals are outside and you advocate their natural setting. From which direction does the most UV you feel as so important originate? Next thing you know, someone will try to claim that UV should be supplied from a pad underneath, since the ground reflects UV in nature.

Ben,

I haven't specifically commented on the heatpad issue because I cannot in all honesty completely rule it out as an acceptable adjunct heat source. Its one of those cases where, in certain situations, it may be appropriate if used properly.
At first blush it makes sense to provide ALL heat from above, but upon further consideration, one might reasonably conclude that providing gentle warmth from below could in fact better replicate a natural setting, if done right.

I still feel that your line of thinking is flawed vis-a-vis temperature exchange in general. If you have unproven theories on the subject, that's fine, but please do not present them here as established fact. If you are filtering actual research done with box turtles specifically, then please, by all means, cite your sources for the information.

I also think that the poster of the original warning had a very valid point to make, which is to use caution with the pads because they pose a danger.
Determine if you actually need one, spend the money on one that has a temp. control mechanism, heat only a small area this way, invest in a timer, etc.

If you think about it ,turtles instintively burrow into the cool forest floor to escape the heat which always comes from above.I may have gotten a defective heat pad but the glass was actually hot to the touch and I am almost certain it caused the death of my 1st hatchling.If they heat up too fast they get gas buildup and it kills them.Now I use a ceramic heat lamp.

Last winter I used a heat pad made for retiles (can't think of the brand name off hand) with my ornate boxie. I had a heat lamp, but I also buried the heating pad in the Bed A Beast.

She loved it!
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
2.2.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband