Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's late but I wanted to at least hit you with some tidbits from todays session:

Copperheads seen as a good beginner snake leaves bite victims with the highest incidence of permenent disability out of all the US snakes.

A monovalent A/V for Helleri is being considered because CroFab & Wyeth don't neutralize all of the venom components. Helleri is now considered to be the HOTTEST of the US Rattlesnakes by many of these experts.

Calloselasma rhodostoma causes the most deaths within it's natural range in Thailand & Maylasia, another very HOT snake.

N. nigricollis seldom/never shows neurotoxcity in human which is no consolation considering your limb will rot off in short order.

The experts here are in agreement the way to treat a snakebite is with A/V and NOT a Faciotomy which is very good news.

Got to love Dr. Warrell's sense of humor and his depth of knowledge. One of my favorites from his was in his talk about his visit to Peru and the snakes there: " Snakes are not just in Peru for decoration, they really bite people" Having spent much time in Africa Dr. Warrell was teasing Dr. Bush & Dr. Fry about the snakes in their countries. " Black Mambas " This is a real snake."

Our mate Dr. Bryan Fry told of an Squam (Atheris) bite that was nearly fatal but left the fellow with permently wrecked Kidneys and a need for Renal Dialysis. Not such a "mild bite" as we think...basically he said "your screwed" No effective A/V

That's all for tonight,

Al
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Marriage changes passion;
Suddenly you're in bed with a relative.

1) Many snake keeper become allergic to "snakes" during the routine cleaning of cages, exposure to feces or even shed skins. Exposure to venom hastens the process.

Could this be what has caused me to recently break out in massive hives combined with chest pains equivalent to an elephant sitting on me? This has happened 5 or 6 times in the past 4 months. I have been trying to I.D. a food that may be causing this, but nothing ever seems to be the same as what I had eaten the time before, and would an epi-pen be helpful when this happens? I know I should see a doctor about this, but the last thing I want to hear is I need to sell my snakes.

N. nigricollis seldom/never shows neurotoxcity in human which is no consolation considering your limb will rot off in short order.

This may be a stupid question, but does this mean its venom is primarily hemotoxin?

Thanks for the post Al. Sure wish I could have attended the Symposium, but the timing wasn't right. Billy

Yes Billy,

It certainly is a distinct possibility that this could be the source of your symptoms. You should seriously consider consulting your physican regarding this issue.

The venom action is totally different in "prey" items, classic neurotoxin, however in humans, those neurotoxic componets of the venom do not seem to be able to bind and block nerve pulses. Other components in the venom who's actions don't have time to exhibit symptoms in prey items because of rapid death, do have time to express themselves in humans. I would maybe classify those componets as "Cytotoxins" because of the gross necrosis and sloughing of tissue is the cases presented.

Just my feeling...

Al
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Marriage changes passion;
Suddenly you're in bed with a relative.

Al,

Living in Thailand, I am very interested in your information concerning Calloselasma rhodostoma. Could you post more information about the statistical data behind this statement, if there was any presented. I have only come across Calloselasma rhodostoma in the field, whereas Daboia russellii siamensis is often found in more populated areas (captured one a couple months ago two houses away from me), as are many of the Naja species. In talking to people from around the country, I hear very few stories of snakebites from Calloselma rhodostoma, but Daboia russellii siamensis is much feared locally and often talked about. Many Thais do not even know the name of Calloselma rhodostoma in their language and I have only seen it in their language at their National Zoo Dusit (Bangkok) and Wirot Nutphand's publication on the Snakes of Thailand. If this data was compiled as a total of both countries (Thailand and Malaysia) then I more fully understand, since Daboia russellii siamensis is not native to Malaysia and the percentage of snakebite deaths in Thailand are much lower in number than in Malaysia, probably due largely to the large anti-venin laboratory in Bangkok and quality snakebite treatment available in Thailand, especially in the more populated areas. Since Calloselama rhodostoma lives typically more in rural areas, is the greater mortality rate possibly due to the inability to reach proper medical care than greater toxicity?

I know this is asking for a lot of information and you are attending the symposium, but it is important for me to educate the people here about the more dangerous venomous snakes as well as to educate myself about what I am dealing with in the field (or at home). Just yesterday, I had a friend tell me his cat was playing with a black and yellow banded snake and asked me if it was dangerous. I told him he had no idea how dangerous it was! Bungarus fasciatus! Banded Krait, in Thai, the Triangle Snake.

Cheers,

Michael

Hi,

There has been a lot of epidemiological research in Thailand (led by David Warrell's team), and Calloselasma rhodostoma came out as one of the most important causes of snakebite and of mortality in Thailand. The distribution is a bit patchy - it is rare in the lower-lying parts of the Central Plain (where Russell's viper is an important cause of snakebite), but very common in the South and Southeast. Case fatality rates for Calloselasma are much lower than for Russell's viper, cobras and kraits, but due to the very large number of bites, it causes as many or more fatalities as these far more dangerous snakes. Most of the bites seem to happen in plantation areas, where this snake can be remarkably abundant, especially in rubber and oil palm plantations. It is not a snake of rice fields. However, it can certainly be found around houses in rural areas.

Cheers,

WW

References:

Looareesuwan, S., C. Viravan & D.A. Warrell (1988) Factors contributing to fatal snake bite in the tropics: analysis of 46 cases in Thailand. Transactions of the Royal Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, 82: 930 934.

Viravan, C., S. Looareesuwan, W. Kosakarn, V. Wuthiekanun, C.J. McCarthy, A.F. Stimson, D. Bunnag, T. Harinasuta and D.A. Warrell. 1992. A national hospital-based survey of snakes responsible for bites in Thailand. Transactions of the Royal Society o Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, 86: 100-106.
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WW Home

Thanks for the help & the references on this one Wolfgang.

Cheers!

Al
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Marriage changes passion;
Suddenly you're in bed with a relative.

Hallo Wolfgang,

Thank you very much for the information, especially the references. Too often, I forget to look at medical references, not equating them to being important to herpetology. I should have known better! Your description concerning the distribution of Calloselasma rhodostoma is right on as far as where it is common, but is found throughout the country, except for the central flood plains; some have even described it as not living in the central flood plains, where I reside. I have yet to find one in my province. Habitat is also right on to what I have seen; most of the specimens I have found were in rubber plantations, on the ground where they match in perfectly.

It has for a long time been the cause of many, if not most of the snakebites here in Thailand, but the number of fatalities was or has been reported as not common with medical treatment. The news of a high number of fatalities is surprising, especially for a snake that most of the people here are not really familiar with. It makes perfect sense that these bites are occurring in the plantations and may also account for the large number of people succumbing to the bites, since the plantations are usually in more rural areas. Your typical plantation worker also does not have much money and may be dying in higher numbers due to not seeking proper medical attention. Thank you for also clearing up the higher mortality rates among the Russell’s Viper, Cobras and Kraits. The post led me to believe that maybe the toxicity of Calloselasma rhodostoma venom was much higher than I thought. Well, it just might be!

Tschüß

Michael

n/t
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Venomous snakes---best hobby on earth!
Bill Huseth

Great information Al, please keep the news coming, thats quite abit of interesting data on the virulence of the coppers, helleri and squams. The helleri I knew to be quite toxic but the coppers and atheris seemed so mild in comparison, quite an eye opener.
Cheers
Brett

Al, is there talk of doing this workshop next year? Based on some of your remarks, I am definitely in!

>>It's late but I wanted to at least hit you with some tidbits from todays session:
>>
>>Copperheads seen as a good beginner snake leaves bite victims with the highest incidence of permenent disability out of all the US snakes.
>>
>>A monovalent A/V for Helleri is being considered because CroFab & Wyeth don't neutralize all of the venom components. Helleri is now considered to be the HOTTEST of the US Rattlesnakes by many of these experts.
>>
>>Calloselasma rhodostoma causes the most deaths within it's natural range in Thailand & Maylasia, another very HOT snake.
>>
>>N. nigricollis seldom/never shows neurotoxcity in human which is no consolation considering your limb will rot off in short order.
>>
>>The experts here are in agreement the way to treat a snakebite is with A/V and NOT a Faciotomy which is very good news.
>>
>>Got to love Dr. Warrell's sense of humor and his depth of knowledge. One of my favorites from his was in his talk about his visit to Peru and the snakes there: " Snakes are not just in Peru for decoration, they really bite people" Having spent much time in Africa Dr. Warrell was teasing Dr. Bush & Dr. Fry about the snakes in their countries. " Black Mambas " This is a real snake."
>>
>>Our mate Dr. Bryan Fry told of an Squam (Atheris) bite that was nearly fatal but left the fellow with permently wrecked Kidneys and a need for Renal Dialysis. Not such a "mild bite" as we think...basically he said "your screwed" No effective A/V
>>
>>That's all for tonight,
>>
>>Al
>>-----
>>Marriage changes passion;
>>Suddenly you're in bed with a relative.
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob...

There will be a two year cycle on this symposium. This week look for my summary & lessons learned posting from this gathering.

I was talking to Dr. Bush...the work on the BOR symposium proceedings is progressing and may be available in the spring of 2006.

Al
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Marriage changes passion;
Suddenly you're in bed with a relative.