Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The vine snake is male, the greenrat is female and a large one at that, just over five feet(yea I know, our ratsnakes are little)

Both were active, I checked the greenrats IBT and it was 92F. There were several other snakes about, but no rattlesnakes, thank goodness.

I actually was checking up on some frogs that are trying real hard to re-establish their former populations. I also visited a couple pyro winter homes, no one was home, go figure, I guess it ain't winter yet.

In the past week, theres been two more rattlesnakes active at night on our property. The one I saw was a mohave, the one my wife saw, was a baby, hahahahahahahaha Enoy the pics, Cheers FR

Great pics and thanks for sharing, Frank! Looks like a small front is making it's way down into Austin tonight. Should be a little chilly tomorrow but it ain't winter yet!
Todd Hughes

It's getting down to 42 at night here in MO!!! and my bedroom is poorly insulated! In the summer it gets about 90 in my bedroom and in the winter it gets to about 50 in my room with the heat/air on! Time to pull out the heat pads!
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
0.0.1 Butter Corn "Butters" (South Park)
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

great pics FR!i love vinesnakes i have Ahuetula Prasina from indo. and i luv'um its nice to see the n.america variety posted.i am curious if they(N.A.vine)brumate/hibernate at all? or if they are just dormant on the worst days. did you by chance get a ibt reading on the vine?,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

About a year and 0ne half ago, we HMK and I decided to have some fun and investigate N.A. vinesnakes, JUST FOR FUN, as in something different. As they "ARE" the very rarest(least known about) of the diurnal terrestrial active snakes. That is, most other snakes that do this type of activity are thought of as common, like racers, garders, waters, even cryptic species like the greensnakes.

So to answer your question, its IBT was 93F. But in the last year, we have seen them from mid-mourning to just at dark, in a fairly wide range of temps from very cold days and to all but the hottest days. Consider this local is approx 5000 &-, ft. At this time, the night lows are in the high thirties and low forties, daytime highs in the eighties. Which is only of minor concern. More importantly, the ground surface temps are still soaring way over 100F, averaging 145 to 160F in the sun.

I am sure they will move over the surface in every month of the year, but almost nothing have been recorded on this species. It appears to be actively moving about in the same conditions as mountain patchnose which are known to move over the surface year-a-round.

In our first year of casual investigation, I found ten individuals in two localities. Compared to 15 greenrats in the same area, 19 patchnose in the same area and times(all three) These three were the most commonly encountered species in this area. Our investigation at this time was to survey the road, no field collecting, which is highly prejudiced. With field collecting you can sway the results by how you look. Although this last greenrat was not on the road, I was. hahahahahahahhaha. Sonoran racers were next followed by lyresnakes, blackheaded snakes, gophersnakes, blacktailed rattlesnakes, tiger rattlesnakes, western diamondback rattlesnakes, garders, hooknose, coralsnakes, hmmmmmmm probably a couple more species. We mostly looked from mid-day, my other field partner gets off work at 1 pm, Until dark.

As mentioned, this is a casual investigation, I think I went there, around ten times this year. So basically ten, half days.

Also I missed the best time of the year, as I was on my real study site at that time.

I mentioned two locals, which is odd, because they are 7 miles apart, and are two different mountain ranges. Whats odd is, the mountains are continous??????????? That is, they are not broken up by a division like a river or valley.

I have a question for you, what kind of habitat do you think vinesnakes and greenrats, for that matter, occur in? Thanks FR

yeah it makes perfect sense to me they(na vines) would utilize similiar habitat as the mtn.patchnose do,i dont know why it just does.but i would assume the vines tend to be more arboreal than the patchnose,but thats just that an ASSumption. as far as green rats i havnt a clue i would again assume(know 1sthand knowledge) rocky outcroppings as their preffered habitat,but thats just a guess really. i do know in central & s.tx. you can find tx.patchnose year around.
during these end months of the year and the beginnings of the next,do you find getula at all?
i know for the most part here in tx. getula are underground in dec./jan. even on the warmer days of course there are exceptions,but for the most part ya just dont see them till feb.which is funny because feb.is one of the consistanly colder months here,i beleive they just like the trees and plants do go into a nature induced dormancy and also just like the trees know to start budding in the spring regardless of temps that the snakes know as well its time to go on with life. i beleive its a biological clock thang that we just cant quite comprehend yet,its also one of the cool things about temperate zoned reptiles,,,im curious to how you will chewup and spit out my observances,,no really i dig your straight fowardness,,now let me have your lowdown on the sitchiAtion!,,,,,,,,,thomas

You gonna go out today Thomas ? I'll be hitting the boardlines west of Houston this afternoon. We dont have days like this but a few times a year.
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Scott Wahlberg

Man i wish!!!im just slammed w/work ,,, hopefully i will be able to stomp some this w/e though,i was gonna hit w.side but guess that'll be pointless now,,maybe i'll headeast,,wait a minute that was a cool band!,prolly a lil before your time though anyway good luck with the nubtailed calligasters,err i mean snakes ,,, shoot what am i sayin?!?! you dont need luck!you got skills! ttys,,,,,,,,,thomas

just blowin me off or what? i figured you would at least answer my questions!?!? was it the texas accent ya didnt get?j/k so hows about the getula over there in dec/jan.???,,,,,,thomas davis

They, of course are where they are about 99% of the time or 361 days a year, they are underground/cover, where they are suppose to be. Of course theres a possibility that they will come close to the surface(AC) on warm days that allow them a better temp choice. A point missed by most here is, kingsnakes are under/something nearly all the time. And particularly in the west, very rarely on or above the ground.

For instance that pick of that young gentleman holding a grip of kingsnakes. They were taken undercover. Yet on that same day, you could look on the surface until your blue in the face, and would be lucky to find one or two sitting on the ground. Compared to a grip under tin. Theres a math formula there to be had.

Then considering that grip of kings, where are the rest? if theres that many there, there indeed "has to be the rest" The rest are the subadults, neonates, etc etc you know, not just the large adult segment(the stars) where are the supporting actors? Its all about the questions sir. FR

yes i agree,but ya kinda make it out like they (getula) stay underground 365days of the year i would venture to say at least 300 of those 24hrs periods(depending on locale maybe all 365)they emerge and crawl,hunt,drink,breed,etc. but i have found several on the crawl in day and nite mostly at dusk(so saying they are allways only found undercover is simply not true)just about every month of the year in tx. except dec./jan. as for the guy in the pic w/all the kings im sure they all were found undercover but im also pretty sure there were that many if not more on the crawl and just unseen
imho take a square mile of good getula habitat with a/c and natural woods,stumps,etc. and the same number found undercover WILL/COULD be found above and on the crawl, ya just gotta look!undercover is still an emergance of sorts.
right place right time
a/c certainly can easily/quickly let ya know if your in the right place ,then its just a matter of figuring out that right time to see all them other supporting actors/actresses,,,,
so ya do see getula all 365 days in your area huh?(im catchin on),,,,,,,,,thomas davis

You said, you seen kingsnakes crawl on the ground in the day, I have seen lots of them. But what does that mean?

On the way to the place you saw one or a few, you drove past thousands of other kingsnakes, why didn't you see them? You have to understand, there are millions and millions of kingsnakes, and you saw a few doing what? How representative is that? hmmmmmm lets say your saw 10, so its 10/5000000000. Or a hundred, 100/5000000000 the reality is, in your life, you most likely have been in the area of far more then 5 million, if you do not stay in your house all the time.

For instance I drove from coast to coast, many times, how many kingsnakes did I pass? I did so in june, how many active kingsnakes did I pass? How many did I see? Do you get the picture.

When you say what snakes do, you are including all kings or all individuals of the type your talking about. Not just the one you saw. Unless you say, this one kingsnake is sitting on
a log. Then that would be accurate. Consider, at the time, how many of all the kingsnakes were sitting on a log. While I am sure more are sitting
on a
log, the vast majority are not sitting on a log, but are underground, so then, kingsnakes are underground, they are underground 24/7, 365, that is, the vast majority are underground during that time you saw one on the ground.

Of course there are exceptions, and the importance of exceptions can vary and is debatable.

Consider, millions of kingsnakes breed and lay eggs every year, yet we humans only see a handfull of wild kingsnake eggs a year, in nest. In fact, by percentage, we see very very few gravid females, compared to how many are gravid. Why?

It boils down to exposure, I have experience that
allows me to understand the larger numbers, so I do not dwell on the smaller numbers. You may be the opposite.

Of course, in the east, you have a higher percentage that are on the surface(wet and cold) compared to the west(hot and dry) The percentage is still very small compared to the whole population. More to think about FR

You said, you seen kingsnakes crawl on the ground in the day, I have seen lots of them. But what does that mean?

IMHO it means they are out looking for food,water,mate,etc, maybe they(getula)are territorial and they are checking for competing kings, maybe they are expanding or reducing or moving home ranges

On the way to the place you saw one or a few, you drove past thousands of other kingsnakes, why didn't you see them?

well because they were either undercover OR underground there is a differance.

You have to understand, there are millions and millions of kingsnakes, and you saw a few doing what? How representative is that? hmmmmmm lets say your saw 10, so its 10/5000000000. Or a hundred, 100/5000000000 the reality is, in your life, you most likely have been in the area of far more then 5 million, if you do not stay in your house all the time.

5000000000?come on frank 5billion? maybe as whole across the country but noway in a county or even a state Imho, i do beleive the numbers are very high but 5billion?seems a bit much.

For instance I drove from coast to coast, many times, how many kingsnakes did I pass? I did so in june, how many active kingsnakes did I pass? How many did I see? Do you get the picture.

YES i get the picture albeit a lil blurry

When you say what snakes do, you are including all kings or all individuals of the type your talking about. Not just the one you saw. Unless you say, this one kingsnake is sitting on
a log. Then that would be accurate. Consider, at the time, how many of all the kingsnakes were sitting on a log. While I am sure more are sitting
on a
log, the vast majority are not sitting on a log, but are underground, so then, kingsnakes are underground, they are underground 24/7, 365, that is, the vast majority are underground during that time you saw one on the ground.

ok ya lost me at one time or another(debatable)ALL kings are above ground maybe undercover but not underground 24/7,365 just as ALL are underground at times but not 24/7,365

Of course there are exceptions, and the importance of exceptions can vary and is debatable.

100% agreed

Consider, millions of kingsnakes breed and lay eggs every year, yet we humans only see a handfull of wild kingsnake eggs a year, in nest. In fact, by percentage, we see very very few gravid females, compared to how many are gravid. Why?

IMHO the gravid femmes stay underground, probably an action triggered after they have bred also why nest are seldom found as they also for the most part are undergound

It boils down to exposure, I have experience that
allows me to understand the larger numbers, so I do not dwell on the smaller numbers. You may be the opposite.

no, i have a bit of experience im definatley not opposite

Of course, in the east, you have a higher percentage that are on the surface(wet and cold) compared to the west(hot and dry) The percentage is still very small compared to the whole population. More to think about FR

agreed about the percentage being small compared to the population. but i dont beleive east(wet,cold) west(hot,dry) has ANYTHING to do with getula movements/activity or lack of.
great conversation,,,,,thanks
thomas davis

Senticolis: desert-scrub, thorn-scrub, tropical deciduous forest, oak woodland, pine-oak woodland, tropical evergreen forest

Oxybelis: thorn-scrub, tropical deciduous forest, oak woodland, tropical evergreen forest

reality is not always confined by literature. This is the exact spot the vinesnake was found. The greenrat was 100 feet to the left. Still exact same habitat.

This was one of the reasons for us looking at vinesnakes, they seem to prefer habitats unlike whats in literature. At least here in this area, they are not confined by whats normal in other areas.

I already knew from previous experience that greenrats do not require trees or rocks or other such things. For instance, if your familiar with this area, you can find greenrats on Ajo Rd(flat desert). Or just outside the town of Sonita Az(grassland).

What this does, it makes me wonder, just what confines a species. Obviously theres leaks that allow them to occupy other habitats. Its just very interesting. Thanks FR

that was a list of habitats I've seen them in.

Lets see a wider angle on that habitat shot.

JJ

Your discription of habitat, was just like, those that ae in many books. I did not insinuate anything else. I also do not disaggree with what you mentioned. That sir is common knowledge.

Also, that is my site shot, and thats that, no wider angle is necessary, that IS the habitat those two snakes were found in. A better question would have been, what type of habitat is downhill, way downhill, in the canyon bottoms. As you can see, this photo is high on a hillside. But thats not the point, the point is, this is exactly where the snakes were found and in the direction they were headed. I could show pics from other areas that match your discription if that would make you feel better. hahahahahaha j/k FR

I'm 90% sure I know where that photo was taken...and there are shrubs/trees above and below that shot (which is why I asked for a wider angle, lol)...while the Senticolis have no problem with the micro-habitat in the shot, Oxybelis aren't designed for it. Do they do it? Yes. Would they climb a tree as soon as they got to one? Yes. They obviously pass through it, but they sure as hell won't snuggle in for a couple days at the base of an agave.

One time I found a banded gecko in a sliding glass door - if I posted a picture of the sliding glass door and told you that they can be found there, you might ask to see a wide angle shot of the door...micro-habitat and habitat are different things.

Different brand of copperhead

JJ

You are so way off, You must be an old fella who fears change, hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Please get humor. Or an egotistical fella who thinks anything that differs from your thoughts is wrong, back to the old fella thing, again humor. But you should get the point.

I do know and understand what these snakes are suppose to do. Thats why we are taking a look at this area. So far, these snakes are as more in the treeless areas, in fact, they seem to avoid the heavily treed areas in preference to very sparely treed to treeless.

More on the rats, I have populations in many different mountain ranges with several seperate populations per mountain range. There habitats have distint and consistant differences. As I mentioned, at times, going away from anything we knew of.

Again back to REALITY, those snakes were there at that spot, we have repeatedly seen them, in this type of habitat, to a point, that they are far more commonly found in this habitat, then others. for us, here, at this time.

Now to learn to read, I did not say, they were not in other habitats. I did not say that literature is wrong, All I/we are saying is, this habitat can be added to what is already known.

If you were to ask questions, I may be able to help you understand. But if you only fall back of old paradigns, there is no helping you to understand this little tiny incident, if you put up barriers.

for instance, in the spring, baby vine snakes were found here in this habitat, now in the fall, I an finding larger babies. As in, they are here and growing at a normal rate. Which only suggests, this is were they live. Of course, that could change with additional information. But nothing can change the fact that this snake was found here.

I also understand, a snake can crawl anywhere, into, out of, all sorts of habitats, heck once we found a zonata coiled on a rock in the middle of a creek. But what is important is, finding life events, such as babies, eggs, etc, These are as important as it gets in determining what a snake really does. Without successful offspring, there are no adults. That much is simple.

So to add to the billion and one possibilities, could this habitat be a nursery??? and the adults actually live miles away in the trees, of course it could, thats why a person would investigate.

Again back to the fact, we can guess, assume, theorize all we want, but the fact is, the snake I pictured was exactly in that pic period. The rest can be played in our minds all we want. Add to that, we have seen many to in this habitat, then you have something to question, WHY? particularly for a snake that appears so adapted to trees? which sir, is the point of this whole exercise. If I was only finding them in trees or treed areas, there would be no reason to do a double check, would there? "Hey dude, I caught a vinesnake in vines, yup, thats were there found dude". Again humor. FR

why?? lol

What are the Vine snakes doing there?

Are they feeding? maybe they've figured out there are more Lizards on the Rocks over there than in the trees? Or not??

Are they utilizing this type habitat all year round? Or only certain parts of the year?

Maybe they are laying eggs under some of those larger rocks? Surely they don't lay eggs in the Trees? Or could they?

Mass temps are surely more stable on the ground than in a Tree? Correct?

You find pyros in Trees, why not vine snakes on the ground?

Forky

I should mention I'm NOT surprised at all you find Vines utilizing that habitat. It's not uncommon to find all sorts of arboreal and semi arboreal species utilizing other habitats that don't fit our previous understanding of those species.

Bottom line they are using the habitat, and they are using it for one of their life events such as feeding, drinking, breeding, thermoregulation or any combination of those events.

IMO it is natural for any species or population that is healthy - or not being decimated - to spread out into other areas. In some cases the habitat may be similar, in others it may not. In some cases the animals can be successful, and in other cases they can not.

It is as you said, the animals are not defined by the literature or simply what we know about them. Quite the reverse, the literature and what we know about the animals is defined by the animals.

Forky

It's not suprising at all to find vines transversing that habitat.

The problem is, vines ARE outcompeted in that habitat. The proof is in their limited range in Az. If they could use it over long stretches as corridors, then they wouldn't be so confined.

My point to Frank is that he's observing them on the fringes...in the marginal habitat...or in pockets of marginal habitat... I can't even think of a species that doesn't show up in marginal habitat on the fringes of its preferred habitat except those facing heavy competition pressure. It's common sense.

JJ

keep the conversation coming.

It would be great (like you said) to see a bigger picture of the habitat and what is around it. I DON'T encourage Frank to post it here however.

There are only so many things we can surmise with the limited amount of information we have - only by what Frank told us.
i.e. if we had the data set we could come up with our own theories and or conclusions which may or may not be different from what are surmising now.

Forky

heres the interesting part, the habitat is from oak woodlawn, to raparian woodlawn, to sotol catclaw(whatever stickery bush that is)(the picture) and goes in all directions for many many miles. Yet, they are here. Why? why not all the other places like this and other wooded places?

As JJ thinks, it must be an accident. That is, if I believed in such things. I think people are accidents, the animals living here, are here. FR

Please try and think about this, its very important.

I reported an observation. Thats it, period. The observation is real. Then you go on and on, about what you think, sir, to think without evidence is assumption. You assumed you know where I was. But you have no proof that of that. So that is an assumption.

In fact, you were not there, so all your thoughts are assumptions. Lastly, you go on and on, and on. All over an observation.

Sir, you cannot argue with an observation. It is what it is. To prove an observation valid, your must repeat it. We have many times over in this case. There is no more to it, at this time.

What that means is, your assumptions are just that, your assumptions, and they have no bearing on the observation, you were not part of it. Also what you think is of no importance. Sorry to say, specially because your so willing to go on assumption. Please think about that.

Remember, you are allowed to think whatever you like. But your thinking does not effect an observation or what these snakes are actually doing. Thanks and please consider this, FR

First, I have no idea why they are there, thats why its fun to have a look. Does that make sense. I do wonder why you think I should have answers at the begining of an investigation? is that how science works? I must have missed that day, dang, I always miss the parts that would make it easier.

If they were along the creek in vines, or in a tree, there would be no need or wonder about it, now would it. But to find them(commonly)as in(very commonly) as I have mentioned the third most common snake in that area, does give one a reason to wonder. Also, the fact, there so few are found where they are suppose to occur. Then overlap, that we have found so many and not in a prejudiced matter. That is, no particular method developed for this species. By the way, there are some other fellas that have done that and find them to be the MOST common snake in the area.

I am not sure how you fellas think or why I may think a bit differently, but I already know, many reptiles have a division of labor, hmmmmmmmm I mean, division of sizes, with young ones doing one thing in a certain area, and older ones doing something slightly different, in an other area, then the breeders again doing something a bit different in a nearby area. In this way, they can utilize more resources in one area, with competing or better yet, overlaping. Is this what they are doing? could be. But I bet its more to do with this, then anything you mentioned. But then, I don't know, but some patterns are forming. Whats important about this type of information is, If the time comes we do have to protect a species, all of their normal functions must be included in whats protected. Not simply a part of what they do. At this point in time, science is still wondering about foraging and not much more. But unless a species can nest and rear young, all the foraging in the world will be of no good.

So, it is bothersome to think I am suppose to know the whys and whats, when we only recently confirmed the "is". Its also bothersome, that you think you have a need to agree with the "is" or not. After all, it "is" whether you agree or not, that goes for me too, it "is" even if I disagree.

And therein lies the point, as a researcher, I am not suppose to agree or disagree or anything, I am suppose to gather data.

And yes they are feeding, the first one we found after we decided to take this on was a roadkill(very very fresh). It contained a freshly consumed, whiptail. A burti, of sorts I believe. This snake possibly was hit by a game and fish fella we were talking to about these snakes. We talked about ah hour with this fella, then he drove down the tract, and we followed shortly, and whale er, there she was(it was a she)No other cars went by during that time period.

Consider, part of an investigation is to ask questions. Ask questions from many sources. So, in that vein, I talked to locals, forestry, game&fish, other herpers. Most all of them said, I found one or two, in my whole life and they were at this place(commonly mentioned in the books) but none had details or the snake(pics). But nearly all of them said, yup, thats where they were. In all cases, these folks had to drive right thru the area we find them to be very common. How odd.

So far, I have not seen of anyone walk out with a vinesnake that was found in the canyon bottom, yet. I am sure they are there, too. But it seems, thats the hard way to find them.

So no, I do not have answers, just lots of pics of snakes living happily where they are not suppose to live.

Personally, I do not think its marginal, or corridors or anything, we just did not understand this snake. At least the ones in this area. FR

Hey I didn't say you supposed to have all the answers!
But now that you mention it, you mean you don't?? hahahahahaha
c'mon Frank!

Sometimes I just like to ask questions. Sometimes I ask myself questions. I'm following your dialog and I thought I saw somewhere where you said we should ask more questions.

I especially like the parts where you mention this about the conversation. I can learn from anyone. I can learn a little bit from you. I can learn a little bit from reading what Literature is out there. I can learn a little bit by doing (I don't get enough time doing IMO - too much time in front of a computer - I'm working on ways to fix that little problem). Even after I put all the little pieces together I know I'm only looking at part of the picture.

Who the heck is JK? lol

At the end of the day, I still like reading what you have to say. So until you get tired of throwing it out there, keep throwing it out there. And by golly if you want questions, I can ask them

I've never found a Vine snake before, never even spent any time where they live (unless I didn't know it). But I do feel I've benefitted from reading what you, JJ, and Rich have had to say.

Forky

While I am talking to you, I am only partly talking to you and JJ, I guess J/K is just kidding.

And yes, asking questions is a good thing. Unfortunately in this case, its too soon for answers.

This whole thing came about very innocently. I had seen a couple of vine snakes, over the last forty years I have been in that area. I remember the first one I found, I had my Land Cruiser, I took it to hunt Alterna a few times in the old days. Remember that one? I pulled up next to a larger adult vinesnake and said to myself, whats that thing doing here, then drove off to find Pyros. hahahahahahahahahahaha Those skinny things are not kingsnakes you know, so what good are they?

A few of my friends did the same thing. So at a monment of boredom, Hugh and I said, lets look in the wrong place and see what happens, So looking in the wrong place, we have averaged one a trip. On the road.

There are other possibilities as well, for instance, the babies are so dang small, that many people do not see them. Several were run over by herpers. What was really odd was, we would see DOR vinesnakes and all greenrats were AOR, not single DOR. Hmmmmmmmmmm have to think about that one. What else was odd, was finding tantilla crawling in the day, don't know why thats odd, just is.

I mean for vinesnakes to outnumber, gardersnakes, racers, gophersnakes, blacktails, is very odd. But then greenrats outnumbered the vinesnakes. But barely. Another oddity, ringnecks are fairly common, but never where the ratsnakes and vinesnakes are. So far. Another oddity is, there are westerns with the vinesnakes and greenrats and blacktails. But they are rare. Whats that all about? What does nature know, she keeps putting these things in the wrong place. hahahahahahahahahaha.

All in all, its just something to do, and fun. Remember the fun, DFR

So I must be the second example.

I think you missed my point...

they seem to avoid the heavily treed areas in preference to very sparely treed to treeless.

Lets look at the potential for bias. If you're an arboreal snake who is looking to travel to the next refuge (read: tree/shrub), and you are in an area with sparse trees/shrubs, you have to travel considerably further...aka more time on the ground...aka higher probability of crossing a road through the marginal habitat..aka a higher probability of fooling Frank into thinking he's documenting Oxybelis utilizing agaves and rocks. Another idea: which snake with good eye sight is more likely to see an oncoming car and not move down to cross the road? One in a tree, or one whose vision is obscured by agaves and grass (despite the way they elevate their heads)?

I know, we know, most people know that they can be found in that habitat. The point is - if you take out the trees/shrubs...the Oxybelis will no longer occupy that habitat. Want proof? Keep driving down the mountain.

[GR] habitats have distint and consistant differences. As I mentioned, at times, going away from anything we knew of.

What? Grasslands? Known from the 80 in the middle of the SBV..why not comparable grassland with historically similar herpetofauna (like Sonoita).

we have repeatedly seen them, in this type of habitat, to a point, that they are far more commonly found in this habitat, then others. for us, here, at this time.

Potentially biased. See Above.

there is no helping you to understand this little tiny incident, if you put up barriers.

It's not about barriers, its about biased methods and sample size.

So to add to the billion and one possibilities, could this habitat be a nursery??? and the adults actually live miles away in the trees, of course it could, thats why a person would investigate.

Potentially, however I think it more likely that you're finding dispersing juveniles who do not have defined home ranges. To be honest, juvies are more fit for that habitat than the adults so it is quite possible that the percentage of time they spend on the ground is higher than it is for adults.

JJ

well, as I find more Oxybelis I can't help but come to the conclusion that they are very adaptable to any micro-enviroment within their range. I don't think their geographic range is limited by habitat but more by meteorlogical factors (perhaps frost zones?)as there is an awfull lot if identical habitat throughout southern Az. that they do not inhabit (same for Gyalopion quadrangulare).

At one time I would have said that they were pretty much limited to trees as all the snakes I found were in dominant evergreen oaks surrounded by smaller satellite trees. They also seemed more common in the trees on the ridglines as opposed to those in the canyon bottoms. I have climbed the home trees occupied by large adults and found numerous shed skins glued to the upper surfaces of the branches indicating that these snakes were spending a lot of time in these particular trees. This also coincided with a study done on this species in Belize where the study snakes had very small ranges on the horizontal plane but made up for it by having large ranges on the vertical plane.

I recent years we (Brendan, Rich L. and I) have found them to seem to be even more common (possibly biased due to it being easier to locate individuals in said micro-habitat)in the low growth and in areas much like Frank has shown us. I have watched them cruise the ground like a whipsnake and also flee like a whipsnake through the brush. I also think MANY people have seen them flying across the ground and thru the brush and simply wrote them off as Masticophis, even when they were looking for Oxybelis. My personal feeling at this point in time is that these snakes occupy all of these micro-enviroments and seem to be equally well adapted to both tree life and terrestrial life. Perhaps there is competition for range/territory with some snakes getting treed areas while others settle for scrub. I do know from keeping various Oxybelis for the last 20 years that they are as individual as people and each has his/her own habits and quirks. Some snakes always sleep amidst their branches, some always spend the night under the rocks on the cage floor. I could easily picture individuals hiding in the bases of agaves and sotol or under rocks. Back in the day when I used to hunt the trees exclusively for this species I would find Masticophis bilineatus snoozing amongst the branches in equal numbers to Oxybelis, but I don't know of anyone who would call trees the primary habitat of Masticophis. On the other hand, for me Oxybelis outnumbers Masticophis almost two to one on eh ground. Go figure.

Rich

We see lots of babies in the treeless areas, can you add to that.

Also, a friend of mine told me, he found one, crossing the road at night about 45 miles to the west. I thought that was odd, but I did manage to find one crossing after sunset.

I only kept a couple and they almost always spent the night in leaf litter, they knew exactly how to use it. much like that series of the copperhead, in the mourning, their heads would pop out of the leafs and stick strait up a six or so inches. Again thanks FR

babies and adults equally via the road and I think the babies and adults have been spread equally throughout treed and treeless zones for us. But again, thats just us and could be just circumstance. I can say I have never seen a baby while on foot in any micro enviroment. They look like pieces of clothes hanger when in the road. I almost hit a baby last year. The only reason I swerved to miss it is that I knew it was something that had not been there on a previous pass. I haven't personally found any dead in the road but I know of several people that have and I agree that many are probably hit unknowingly by herpers who don't have a search image for them. Back around 1990 I talked to a guy at an AHA meeting who had gone down and spent a whole day wacking bushes with a big stick in hopes of making a vinesnake move and give itself away. He saw no snakes whatso ever and then hit the pavement for some road cruisin' after dark. He found an adult Oxybelis on the pavement at around 2330. I have always figured they must be in the Sasabe area and the southern end of the Baboquivaris. The habitat looks good to me. There is an un-verified account of one from Kitt Peak. Also in Florida Canyon in the Ritas. Interstingly I was perusing AZG&F's site for species of special concern and they have the Florida Canyon specimen listed as though they consider it valid.
Speaking of the Sasabe area, I have always pondered the occurence of Leptodeira and Imantodes in that area. I know Imantodes occurs as far north as Benjamin Hill (not sure about Letodeira)so I don't think Sasabe is that much of a longshot for either species. I remember you mentioning finding a dead Cat Eyed Snake down there. Heck, just think what may be traveling northward in the backpacks of illegals,lol! Here's a couple coralillos from the Little Birds.

We found very few baby vinesnakes while hunting from a car. So we switched to quads and now they are common. Your absolutely right, they are very difficult to see. But they are common. Your also right about the search image, that is key to finding all sorts of reptiles, muchless something so goofy as a vinesnake.

I have another oddball story about that area, I was down there with Bill Garska, years age. His parents lived in continental, he knew of ways to commonly find sonoran hooknose in that area, anyway, we were looking for them west of noggie. We were talking to a forest ranger on horseback(back one of those tiny roads heading south, and he gave us an account that sounded all the world like a boa. hahahahahahahahahaha another species thats close by.

Also, wasn't that vinesnake in the ritas in Agua calentie canyon, at the cave? Thanks and one day we must meet, FR

I know many have speculated the possibility of boas in that range.

As for the vinesnake in the Ritas, I had never heard of the Agua Caliente specimen but it may very well be. Luke Thirkhill told me about one being found in Florida several years ago and since then I have heard it mentioned several times thru the grapevine so I just assumed it must be that locality. Quien sabe!

Look forward to meeting ya one of these days despite what Hugh said! hehehehe!

HKM here wondering if you have me mistaken with that HMK guy again????? smooches!!

But your not making it easy. RF,,,,FRD,,,,,,DFR,,,,,,FDR,hahahahahaha,,,,,,, FR