Reptile & Amphibian Forums

PEORIA JOURNAL STAR (Illinois) 24 October 05 DNR nabs turtles in EP - State agency raids reptile sale, alleging violation of federal law (Jennifer Peryam)
East Peoria: What started out as a Halloween bash where reptiles were being sold turned into a raid that resulted in a $75 fine for a vendor and a confiscated turtle.
"I wanted to hold a nice event for kids to get some reptiles at a decent price that they normally can't find in pet shops," said Jason Johnson, promoter of Midwest Reptile Expo Show at the East Peoria Convention Center at The Oaks.
Vendors from Illinois, Chicago and Iowa sold exotic reptiles, such as panther chameleons, albino red tail boas and poison dart frogs, at the bash. Children also dressed up in costumes to celebrate Halloween early.
At 11 a.m., seven undercover men from the Illinois Department of Natural Resources came in and purchased turtles and a grey rat snake. Shortly thereafter, three armed and uniformed DNR officers entered.
"I tried to stop them at the door, but they told me to get out of the way or I would be arrested," Johnson said.
"They were the authority of the day and they had badges and guns so I had no choice but to listen to them."
According to Johnson, the officers said they were going to take turtles because the sale was in violation of a Food and Drug Administration law stating that turtles with a carapace - the bottom of their shell - that is less than four inches are prohibited from general sale. The law has two provisions that states that the turtles can be sold for bona fide educational and scientific purposes and that sales not in connection with a business are not affected by the law.
The vendors at the sale are private breeders and "hobbyists" and therefore should be exempt from the law, Johnson said.
Despite repeated attempts, no one from the DNR could be reached for comment.
"It's not like I'm promoting this show to sell illegal reptiles," Johnson said. "I'm promoting it as a fun kids event," Iowa vendor Flynn Reptile was fined $75 for selling the grey rat snake, Johnson said. He also said turtles from one vendor were confiscated.
"It's so unfortunate that we have a family-oriented event like this to encourage parents and kids, and this happens," said Devon Cady of Cady Reptiles in Peoria. Cady sold lizards, crested geckos and leopard geckos at the event.
"The whole idea of things like this is to educate the public and kids."
State agency raids reptile sale, alleging violation of federal law

PEORIA JOURNAL STAR (Illinois) 27 October 05 Shell shocked - Authorities keep close eye on sales at reptile expo
In the law of the reptile world, there's not much wiggle room for baby turtles.
Poison dart frogs, panther chameleons, bearded dragons, leopard geckos, even boa constrictors are, in general, legal game for vendors to sell as pets to amateur herpetologists - or just plain lizard lovers - at so-called swap fairs.
But several decades ago, the federal government passed a law designed to stop young children from putting turtles into their mouths. Too many kids contracted salmonella poisoning as a result.
Jason Johnson of Peoria said Wednesday he knows the law well. State officials and a local herpetology society president countered that if he does, he shouldn't have been surprised by the visit state agents paid him Sunday.
It came in the form of a raid on the Midwest Reptile Expo at the East Peoria Convention Center at The Oaks, a privatefacility that Johnson has rented since June for the event he promotes once a month.
"Basically, it's where people can get all kinds of exotic animals that most pet shops don't carry," Johnson, 30, said.
About 50 vendors take part in the event each fourth Sunday, and Convention Center co-owner Rollie Campbell said it keeps growing in popularity.
"It's such a nice family event," he said. For the Halloween season, "Vendors dressed in costumes and kids were going trick-or-treating to each table" - until, he said, they were "traumatized."
That's when three uniformed agents from the Illinois Department of Natural Resources arrived, strongly advised Johnson and Campbell not to try to block their entry and joined with seven undercover agents already inside to halt the proceedings for an hour.
Since its inception, the expo has been "the subject of an extensive investigation for the unlawful sale of threatened or endangered species and violations of the federal Lacey Act and (of) the federal Food and Drug Administration," said DNR spokeswoman Melany Arnold.
Several layers of state and federal laws regulate exotic animal sales. Johnson acknowledged that, in July, a vendor from Chicago illegally sold a 4-foot-long alligator - unknowingly to an undercover agent - after Johnson allowed him to bring the animal in from the heat of his parked car.
"I said, 'Bring it in, put it in a box under the table and don't you dare sell it!'" Johnson said. "The agent heard me and offered (the vendor) some ungodly amount of money, and he sold it."
That vendor has not yet been cited for the alleged violation. Alligators and other federally designated endangered species and venomous reptiles are barred from sale in Illinois, said DNR biologist/herpetologist Scott Ballard. Poison dart snakes, once removed from the food they eat in the wild, are not poisonous.
The raid Sunday has produced only one citation so far. An Iowa-based vendor did not have the state license required to sell a gray rat snake, protected by law because it's native to Illinois. The expo's dealings, however, "remain under investigation," Arnold said.
As for Johnson, "I'd say he's not clear of any charges yet," said Jason Juchim, president of the Central Illinois Herpetological Society. That's because he and Ballard said they told Johnson that vendors are breaking the law if they sell turtles with top shells, or carapaces, less than four inches long.
Johnson, who's owned "tons" of reptiles since he caught a dime-sized turtle as a boy and raised it over a decade, said he believes the law allows small turtles to be sold in the course of a hobby or for educational purposes, though not in the course of a business.
"I told him no," the law carries no such loopholes, Ballard said. "But he said, 'We're hobbyists.' " That doesn't matter, Ballard said.
Johnson said whether his vendors turn a profit at his shows "is their personal business. I honestly don't know." After overhead expenses, he makes less than $300 each show and uses that to promote his next one.
"If the show keeps growing, I might make a profit someday," he said. But for now, he'll watch to see if the Sunday raid has scared many vendors from his next expo planned for Nov. 27.
Authorities keep close eye on sales at reptile expo

The idiot people that wrote the stupid 4" turtle law don't have a clue- nor do the people who have to enforce it. There is a clear exemption for hobbyists. RES are sold all over Florida with little kits at stands within malls. It seems that IL is overzealous in their interpretation. Ballard and Melany in this article are clueless.

I would encourage any and all to contact Richard Fife at ivorytortoise.com. He has done alot of work to overturn this silly law. Perhaps we can get a legal fund together and sue Dept. of Interior (USFWS) or Dept of Agr. to adjust some of their dumb policies. The whole U.S. ESA designation for a non native U.S. animal is another example of inept policy making and enforcement. Several developers have pressed for reevaluation of laws enacted in 1973 under the ESA after many species are more plentiful thus not requiring certain protections. The whole ESA and 4" turtle law needs to be ammended formally for clearer understanding and to reflect actual needs of specimens 32 years later. Under the turtle law-tortoises are included and not one case of salmonella has EVER been attributed to a tortoise (land turtle).

To John H. :

Can you tell me the difference between someone who is a "hobbyist" versus someone in it for "business?"

I agree with you that the 4 inch law is "silly," but it is the law of the land. Knowing this, it would seem most logical that folks would spend more time and effort on getting the law changed rather than focusing on those who break the law.

Hi,

Interpretation is part of the problem. What is a fancier, hobbyist or business? Is someone who sells a few tortises each year to offset some costs of keeping reptiles a fancier. What about 20 tortoises? What about someone who has had tortoises for years that grow up and now has 10 females laying 20 eggs each? Person has a right to sell his or her babies to offset costs of keeping, right? What if these were endangered? Doesn't that help preserve the species in the big picture. What if someone takes their tortoises to schools for lecture to children but sells 1000 babies per year of the same species? Now, does it matter if the person does 1 or 2 national reptile shows or that a person actually owns a store front. What if just Internet sales? There is a ton of gray area here and the wildlife police need to focus on far more important issues than a less than 4" turtle.

Bottom line- this provision was given to discourage mass importation and sales or giveaways of RES to kids at fairs. Otherwise, sales, trades and bartering to other informed adults who enjoy domestically produced less than 4" turtles, tortoises or terrapins should ALL be considered enthusiasts, hobbyists, fanciers or whatever name one wants to call us.

Here is a link from the FDA. . .

http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpggenl/cpg170-100.html

>>Here is a link from the FDA. . .
>>
>>http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpggenl/cpg170-100.html

From that page,

Because turtles are "cold blooded,"freezing is a humane method of destruction.

I can therefore conclude that since humans are warm-blooded, boiling is an appropriate means of euthanasia.

-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I have reviewed the most current version of the CFR banning the sell of 4 inch turtles. I don't see the term "hobbyist" used anywhere. The term "hobbyist" is used on ivorytortoise.com, but I am unsure as to who used it..Fife in summary of the FDA response or the FDA. (?) It is not clearly defined, although reference is made to: "see definition." (WHERE???) Under Illinois law, a "Pet shop operator" is defined as someone who sells "animals" not produced by that person(225 ILCS 605/2). The natural corollary therefore, for a "hobbyist" could be "someone who only sells animals produced by him or herself."
???

In regards to the incident in Illinois, do any of you know if the folks who were the subject of the "raid" had produced these baby turtles, or did they purchase them for the purpose of re-sale?

Hey, I like the way you think.

Katrina

Okay we can all agree that for the most part there is not very good herp legislation out there. From the little herp legislation we have, the authorities don't always do the best job with it.

That said, RES are an invasive species in every continent but Antartica, choking out countless threatened and endangered native species. Burms breeding in FL (along with 50 other herp species non-native to that state), unwanted iguanas are everywhere, Sulcata tortoises which grow up to 200 lbs are the most commonly seen tortoise sold at many shows and most are given up by owners within the first couple years of their 100 year lifspan. If you look at a few of these issues it's pretty clear the reptile hobby has done a pretty poor job of policing itself over the last couple decades without much regulation. I'm not saying the IL raid is the answer, but at some point we have to do something about the unscrupulous selling the unkeepable to the ignorant.

Most major problems in the world are traced back to a big corporation or other large corrupt power. But the problem with unwanted, unkeepable and invasive herps is largely due to thousands of independant small scale vendors (many of whom consider themselves 'hobbyists'). I know some hobbyists are more responsible than others, but you have to admit the reptile hobby gets out of hand without some sort of regulation.

If Raids are not the answer, then what is?
-----
Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

I don't see the correlation between a burmese python in the everglades or an unwanted large sulcatta tortoise and the need for wildlife police looking to stretch the law to justify raiding a public "family-like" gathering for reptile hobbyists to search for less than 4" turtles that are being sold LEGALLY under the FDA's own policy which is short-sighted to begin with. Again, there is a clear loophole for hobbyists. I think the word "fancier" is the same as "hobbyist" as outlined in the FDA's own policy.

Because of the recent bird flu let the govt. go out and create a law that all birds need to be 5 years old an quarantined for no less than 3 years before being sold. The bird people would freak out and rightfully so. There is no difference in the above scenario than the knee jerk reaction to a silly blanket policy to turtles, tortoises and terrapins when the culprits were kids and RES in the 1970's. Hence, the loophole was created to get around the craziness of the law.

Sure there are problems with unwanted reptiles as with unwanted dogs and cats. This has been and will always be the case. Efforts like yours are to be commended but unwanted reptiles and public raids by overzelous wildlife police looking to create issues where none should exist are completely different and should not be grouped together under the context of a debate about wildlife police overstepping their boundaries.

I don't see the correlation between a burmese python in the everglades or an unwanted large sulcatta tortoise and the need for wildlife police looking to stretch the law...

you're right i'm not saying one justifies the other. My point is that a lack of regulation of this hobby has created a great deal of problems, and one way or another we have to find a way to deal with those problems. I'm not suggesting poorly executed raids are the answer, I am however looking for people to come up with suggestions on what is the answer. Unfortunately if hobbyists can't do something to control the problems in our hobby, authorities will do it for us, like the all-out bans in new york, or the ones being considered in north carolina, alaska, and other states.

Sure there are problems with unwanted reptiles as with unwanted dogs and cats.

Reptile problems are on a whole different level though, you have to admit. Have cats and dogs from captivity started populating non-native areas around the globe, choking out native wildlife species? This is the case for hundreds of pet trade reptile species all around the world that create major problems for native wildlife. Again, not saying raids are the answer, just provoking thought about what IS the answer.

Any ideas anyone? How can we protect the interests of responsible hobbyists while guarding against the problems that have plagued our hobby for years?
-----
Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

You're right about reptiles are different than dogs or cats. Can't we take unwanted reptiles to animal shelters and be done with it? Seriously, as everyone knows, dog and cats get euthanized by the thousands in city run shelters each year. This would be too bad but beter than reptiles running amock in the wild causing imbalance in the evironment and pressure on the wildlife police and citizen groups.

Let's just be careful not to openly invite Big Brother to police this hobby as that would spell disaster. There are problems too with irresponsible dog breeders like pitbulls trained to attack people, etc. I don't see a call to stop people from breeding pitbulls. Deal with the problems on an individual level not inept blanket policy making.

Just an FYI, but many, many cities and counties are banning pit bulls and anything related, including bull terriers (remember the Spuds McKenzie dog?) that are not typically used in fighting. Some of the ordinances use language that makes anything that resembles a pit bull illegal. In Denver neighbors are ratting each other out left and right since the pit bull ban was re-inforced a few months ago, and family pets are being euthanized.

Katrina

"Reptile problems are on a whole different level though, you have to admit. Have cats and dogs from captivity started populating non-native areas around the globe, choking out native wildlife species?"

Yes they have, killing more than a billion mammals and birds each year. Many of the animals that are kill by cats are
threatened and endangered species. Do a google search and you will see what I'm talking about.

UFLaw Conservation Clinic Research: Wild Cats Threaten Endangered Species Nationwide:
http://www.law.ufl.edu/news/releases/030501.shtml

This thread was originally about the FDA "four inch rule" and not about exotics being introduced species. I think we all agree that introduced exotic pets is a big problem in states that are warm enough to support them (for example FL).

I last posted on November 1, nearly two weeks ago. In that post, I asked a simple question and suggested a definition. To date, I have not received a direct answer. I could do the popular thing, and bash and ridicule the DNR, but I don't believe that is the route to resolving this matter. The following is a summary of the banter that has occurred:
a.) fancier = hobbyist ... and neither can actually be defined except by using the other term. (What is a fancier? A fancier is a hobbyist! What is a hobbyist? Oh, a hobbyist is a fancier!)
b.) The "4 inch turtle law" is actually just a FDA "regulation"... and it is STUPID!!! I'm not sure what distinction is being made here.
c.) The DNR are BAD people: they are the "ENEMY." One poor soul on here "pissed his pants" because another compared the DNR to the Coyote and hobbyists/fanciers to the Roadrunner. (Another laughed his f## a$$ off ...and really, I know they are just sayings not to be taken literally.) We all love cops when they are keeping us from harm but hate them when we get a ticket. Really, folks, the relationship that the hobby has with law enforcement does not have to be adversarial!
d.) Surplus animals versus animals bought to be resold:
Several attempts have been made to rearrange the facts to make them favorable to the argument that what was going on was "non-business" in nature. Why? Can anyone on here actually state that the baby turtles being sold at the show were not purchased solely for resale? Isn't that a business? (buy low and sell high!)
e.) A "class action lawsuit"... I can go down to the Courthouse and sue my neighbor for being ugly! Lesson: Any one can sue another for any reason, or for no reason at all. I welcome the legal citation to the successful "class action" lawsuit brought in Florida.
It is easy to rant and rave and throw out ridiculous suggestions. I think we all need to give this matter a little more "serious" thought if a resolution is ever to be found. Change the law? Why? Why not?

I think in the most simplest of terms it comes down to the fact that we live in America and not Nazi Germany and we have the right voice our opinion, we have the right to stand up for what we believe in and many other rights in the Constitution that are all to often violated by the very people who are sworn to protect them.

sincerely
The Roadrunner BEEP BEEP!!!!!!

>>I last posted on November 1, nearly two weeks ago. In that post, I asked a simple question and suggested a definition. To date, I have not received a direct answer. I could do the popular thing, and bash and ridicule the DNR, but I don't believe that is the route to resolving this matter. The following is a summary of the banter that has occurred:
>>a.) fancier = hobbyist ... and neither can actually be defined except by using the other term. (What is a fancier? A fancier is a hobbyist! What is a hobbyist? Oh, a hobbyist is a fancier!)
>>b.) The "4 inch turtle law" is actually just a FDA "regulation"... and it is STUPID!!! I'm not sure what distinction is being made here.
>>c.) The DNR are BAD people: they are the "ENEMY." One poor soul on here "pissed his pants" because another compared the DNR to the Coyote and hobbyists/fanciers to the Roadrunner. (Another laughed his f## a$$ off ...and really, I know they are just sayings not to be taken literally.) We all love cops when they are keeping us from harm but hate them when we get a ticket. Really, folks, the relationship that the hobby has with law enforcement does not have to be adversarial!
>>d.) Surplus animals versus animals bought to be resold:
>>Several attempts have been made to rearrange the facts to make them favorable to the argument that what was going on was "non-business" in nature. Why? Can anyone on here actually state that the baby turtles being sold at the show were not purchased solely for resale? Isn't that a business? (buy low and sell high!)
>>e.) A "class action lawsuit"... I can go down to the Courthouse and sue my neighbor for being ugly! Lesson: Any one can sue another for any reason, or for no reason at all. I welcome the legal citation to the successful "class action" lawsuit brought in Florida.
>>It is easy to rant and rave and throw out ridiculous suggestions. I think we all need to give this matter a little more "serious" thought if a resolution is ever to be found. Change the law? Why? Why not?
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

>>>>I last posted on November 1, nearly two weeks ago. In that post, I asked a simple question and suggested a definition. To date, I have not received a direct answer. I could do the popular thing, and bash and ridicule the DNR, but I don't believe that is the route to resolving this matter. The following is a summary of the banter that has occurred:
>>>>a.) fancier = hobbyist ... and neither can actually be defined except by using the other term. (What is a fancier? A fancier is a hobbyist! What is a hobbyist? Oh, a hobbyist is a fancier!)
>>>>b.) The "4 inch turtle law" is actually just a FDA "regulation"... and it is STUPID!!! I'm not sure what distinction is being made here.
>>>>c.) The DNR are BAD people: they are the "ENEMY." One poor soul on here "pissed his pants" because another compared the DNR to the Coyote and hobbyists/fanciers to the Roadrunner. (Another laughed his f## a$$ off ...and really, I know they are just sayings not to be taken literally.) We all love cops when they are keeping us from harm but hate them when we get a ticket. Really, folks, the relationship that the hobby has with law enforcement does not have to be adversarial!
>>>>d.) Surplus animals versus animals bought to be resold:
>>>>Several attempts have been made to rearrange the facts to make them favorable to the argument that what was going on was "non-business" in nature. Why? Can anyone on here actually state that the baby turtles being sold at the show were not purchased solely for resale? Isn't that a business? (buy low and sell high!)
>>>>e.) A "class action lawsuit"... I can go down to the Courthouse and sue my neighbor for being ugly! Lesson: Any one can sue another for any reason, or for no reason at all. I welcome the legal citation to the successful "class action" lawsuit brought in Florida.
>>>>It is easy to rant and rave and throw out ridiculous suggestions. I think we all need to give this matter a little more "serious" thought if a resolution is ever to be found. Change the law? Why? Why not?
>>-----
>>Jason & Danica
>>Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)
>>
>>
>>So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
>>
>>
>>Classic Dums frozen feeders
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

how do you justify DNR coming in and shutting down the shows, running off costumers etc. I think that is really what most people are upset about, if someone is in violation of the law it would be one thing if DNR came in and ticketed that person without turning the whole event into some big fiasco but by coming in shutting the entire show down running people off all they are doing is pissing off the people who dont violate the laws, and when they intefer with people who are compliant they turn them against them

Honestly do you think people at trade shows who are not violating the law want law breakers among them? hell no,

I dont see how that is legal, if Im at a show and not in violation fo anything and joe blow 4 tables down is doing something he shouldnt what right does DNR have to interfer with the people who are compliant with the law?? do the regular police come in and shut a whole mall down because one kid who works for the CD store is selling a couple bags of pot inside the mall? no they dont, they come in and arrest the kid who is violating the law without interefering with the rest,
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

an I really LMFAO no not at all, I do take this seriously just sometimes one has to let off some steam and to awswer your other question about the turles I have no idea who the people were that had them at Jasons show, I dont know who his vendors are Ive never been there. even the other shows I do, I have no idea, I dont follow what is going on with turltes,
My personal thoughts on the turtles doesnt DNR have more important things to do with their time like catching the Greg Henrys of the world who are smuggling endangered species out of state parks. With the cut backs, what was it 126(give or take) officers got laid of this year wouldnt it make more sense for DNR to focus on the conservation of native species and resources and Since I answered yours would you be so kind as to answer some of mine

another thing I am really curious about
this is part of the DNR creed

"To educate the inadvertent violator of Conservation Law and to take the appropriate level of enforcement action to achieve this goal."

You say the relationship between the hobby and DNR doesnt have to be adversarial(I had to look that one up LOL)

ad·ver·sar·i·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dvr-sâr-l)
adj.
Relating to or characteristic of an adversary; involving antagonistic elements: “the chasm between management and labor in this country, an often needlessly adversarial... atmosphere

So put that portion of the creed and adversial togther, lets take the guy who got popped with the grey rat snakes at Jasons show. This is my understanding of what happened he was from Iowa had some for sale and sold one to an undercover, they then came back and wrote him a ticket, if DNR truely doesnt want an adversial relationship with the herp hobbyists why not write the guy a warning? Why not live up to their creed and educate the person so in the future he complies, I highly doubt the guy knew grey rats were native to IL, heck I didnt even know that till this all came up and I live here, a little work from DNR to show that "we are not out to get you" would go a long way

You say some of the facts have been distorted please correct them
Im all ears to hear why countless people had to be effected by the couple that were accused,

there was 10 officers there that day, Jason has only put that show on 5 times, wouldnt it have made more sense for DNR to simply have one uniformed officer there each time, how much money would that have saved the state, Instead of sending god knows how many undercovers in up till the raid and then 10 officers that day

In other sectors of the animal world I know law enforcment does that, send sone person everytime, then that officer has the ability to learn who the repeat people are that are always violating or trying to find some way around the law and who the ones are who may inadvertently violatew the law. like you said some of this stuff isnt clear, So then when the repeat people get ticketed, do you think anyone is going to throw a fuss? no because everyone knew they had it coming, then when the inadvertent person who does something out of ignorance, since the officer knows that person isnt trying to violate the laws has the oppurtunity to say "hey we need to correct this" does that ever happen no DNR sits back from affair and swops in, in force, why dont they try to work with people???? if there is a couple people violating the law at a show why turn it into such a major production, why not deal with them and let everyuone else enjoy their day? when ou get down to the jist of this, this is why epople are upset

So there somew serious though, a responce would be apreciated
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

Thanks for all the wonderful comments. And yes as always I agree why the act? why the big show the parade? is it all really necessary? As most of you agree NO!!! None of it is necessary. Its funny you mention about having some one at the shows to help out. I find this funny because DNR Sergeant Stickmeyer(sorry if that is spelled wrong) and I had a conversation a month before my first show in June and I asked him if they had some one who could police the shows for me (because although I do know alot of them. I don't know all the rules or laws)and even invited him to the show to check this out and you know what his response was? "We are no here to give warnings, we are here citations." Now how am I supposed to react to that? You have now backed me in a corner and made the relationship between me and the DNR confrintational. So what happens???? They can't have anyone there to help out, but yes they can send undcover people there every month to investigate the show. And once they see that every thing is on the up and up then what they can't leave it alone they then have to try and get my vendors to get them stuff that they shouldn't be selling or shouldn't have. And how much success did they have there? NONE!!!!!!! YES I SAID NONE!!!!!! Ok so one person ot a ticket for not having his fish dealors license hardly 5 months worth of the states money put to good use. And when your own men even say things like "I don't know what we are doing here I would rather be out catching poachers" should tell you people something about what you are doing. Yes I do agree stick to the rivers and lakes and fish and to stuff you know. What amazes me to think is that not more than ten miles west of the show is one of the most polluted bodies of water I have ever seen. Yes I am talking about the Illinois river. And what is the DNR (department of natural resources) doing to better the quality of that water nothing that I know accept tell us that we can not eat the fish out of it or swim in it for that matter!!!!!!!! Sounds more like a toxic waste dump then a river to me. A wise man once told me along time ago to get my priorities straight I think maybe that would be a very good suggestion for them as well.

thanks
The Roadrunner BEEP BEEP!!!!!!

The reason no one answered you is probably because there is no definition of business in the law itself. It would be up to a judge to decide who is a business and who is just a hobbyist. Whether you become a business because you have X number of turtles for sale or because you breed them yourself is subjective until a true definition becomes part of the law.

No one answered my question either, so don't feel bad. I want to know if anyone has any documentation of a tortoise being a carrier of salmonella and in turn infecting someone? I was told that there were no reported cases but want to be sure.

Take care,
Mike

Mike

As far as I know there has been no cases of any infection from a tortoise. However when this rule was set in place there were very few tortoise in the trade from what I understand. But you must remember the people writting this rule had no clue as to what they were talking about and as long as it had a shell it was a turtle to these people and therefore could spread diseases

Sincerely
The Roadrunner Beep Beep!!!!!!!!

I don't know if a tortoise would naturally have salmonella, but we've all seen less than ethical vendors at shows who have tortoise and turtles together in the same enclosure. I've seen WC Asian and SA turtles in with Greeks and Russians. In pet stores I've seen tortoises in with iguanas. Wouldn't be a far cry for a tortoise to pick up a pathogen from another animal, although less likely from a hatchling tortoise, I'm sure.

Katrina

FIRST OFF I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGIZE TO THOSE WHO WERE AT THE SHOW ON SUNDAY OCT 23.

NOW I KNOW MANY OF YOU OUT THERE HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED I AM WILL BE WILLING TO ANSWER THEM EITHER HERE OR IN AN EMAIL AND I CAN BE REACHED AT MIDWESTRPETILEEXPO@YAHOO.COM

NOW REMEBER THAT MY FACTS AND MY PERSONAL FEELING MAY BE INTERTWINNED WHEN EXPLAINING WHAT HAPPENED ON SUNDAY... THAT IN MIND HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED.

ABOUT 11 AM 7 UNDERCOVER OFFICERS CAME INTO THE SHOW AND BOUGHT A GRAY RAT SNAKE AND SEVERAL BABY TURTLES AND ABOUT 10 MINUTES AFTER THAT 3 UNFIROMED OFFICERS SHOWED UP I TRIED TO STOP THEM AT THE DOOR BUT I WAS PUSHED ASIDE AND TOLD I WOULD BE ARRESTED IF I DID NOT GET OUT OF THE WAY. PUSHING WOMAN AND CHILDREN OUT OF THE WAY TO MAKE THERE WAY INTO THE SHOW THEY SOON MET UP WITH THE UNDERCOVER OFFICERS.

AFTER THAT I WAS PULLED ASIDE AND THEY LOCKED DOWN THE SHOW FOR ABOUT AN HOUR AS WOMAN AND CHILDREN WERE OUTSIDE IN THE COLD SOME LEFT AND SOME STAYED AND THE WOMAN AND CHILDREN TRAPPED INSIDE BECAME VERY AGITATED AND CHILDREN STARTED SCREAMING AND CRYING. HOWEVER THROUGH THIS WHOLE HOUR AND ALOMOST ALL MORNING LONG WELL INTO THE AFTERNOON THEY KEPT TELLING EVERYONE WHO WAS SELLING THE BABY TURTLES THEY WERE GONNA TAKE THEM. HOWEVER ABOUT 1PM THEY GOT TO ONE VENDOR WHO KNEW HIS RIGHTS AND WHEN THEY SAID THEY WERE GONNA TAKE THE TURTLES HE ASKED FOR THE FDA OFFICIAL WHO WAS PRESENT AND TO HIS SUPRISE THESE WASN'T ONE!!!!! SO AS WELL ALL KNOW THAT THEY HAVE TO BE PRESENT IN RAIDS LIKE THIS TO ISSUE THE "ORDER OF DISTRUCTION PAPERS" HOWEVER ONCE THEY COULDN'T PRODUCE AN FDA OFFICIAL THEY TOLD EVERYONE THEY WERE NOT GONNA TAKE ANY OF THE TURTLES, BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T (DUMB ASSES) BUT HOWEVER ONE VENDOR DID GET HIS 20 TURTLES TAKEN BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE HIS FISH DEALERS LICENSE HOWEVER DURING HIS DISCUSSION WITH THE DNR YOU ONLY HAVE TO HAVE THIS PERMIT TO SELL ANYTHING NATIVE AND THE DNR OFFICER TOLD THE VENDOR THAT FLORIDA RED BELLY TURTLES WERE NATIVE!!!!! WHAT!!!! HE SAID THEY HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED HERE SO THEY ARE NATIVE!!! AGAIN!!! DUMB ASSES!!!

WELL THEY ALSO TOOK A GRAY RAT SNAKE FROM ONE OF THE VENDORS BECAUSE IT IS ALSO NATIVE TO ILLINOIS AND THAT VENDOR DID NOT HAVE HIS FISH DEALERS LICENSE EITHER. BUT THE STORY DOESN'T END THERE. THE DNR OFFICER GAVE THE SNAQKE BACK TO HIM AFTER GIVING HIM A TICKET AND THEN TOLD HIM TO KEEP THE MONEY THEY HAD GIVEN HIM FOR THE SNAKE!!!! AGAIN A VERY POINTLESS SITUATION.

SO WHEN IT WAS ALL SAID AND DONE THAT DAY THEY TOOK 20 TURTLES AND ISSUED A TICKET HARDLY A GOOD WAY TO SPEND HUNDRES OF THOUSAND OF TAX PAYERS DOLLARS. AND I MIGHT ADD THEY DNR REALIZED THIER MISTAKE AND LATER GAVE BACK THE FLORIDA RED BELLIES. AGAIN COMPLETELY POINTLESS!!!

OK NOW MY THOUGHTS ON WHAT TOOK PLACE.... MY VENDORS SET UP FROM 8AM TIL 10AM WHY COULD THEY HAVE NOT SHOWN UP EARLY INTRODUCED THEMSELVES AND CAME IN AND CHECKED EVERYTHING OUT AND THEN LET THE SHOW GO ON AT 10AM??? WHY NOT??? I DON'T UNDERSTAND. IF THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO AVOID AFFECTING THE SMALL CHILDREN AND THE PUBLIC IN GENERAL BUT AS YOU CAN SEE THEY APPERANTLY DON'T CARE.

ALSO THIS THING ABOUT THE 4 INCH TURTLE "RULE" AND THAT IS ALL IT IS!!!! IT IS NOT A LAW!!!! READ IT LOOK IT UP!!!! 21CRF1240.62 IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT A LAW ONLY REGULATIONS!!!!! AND AS FOR THE PROVISIONS I MUST AGREE IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOBBYIST BUT IT DOES SAY SALES NOT IN CONNECTION WITH A BUISNESS AND I EVEN EMAILED THE FDA AND THEY TOLD ME ALMOST WORD FOR WORD WHAT THEY TOLD THE IVORY TORTOISE GUY ABOUT KEEPING IN LINE WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC HEALTH CONCERNS BUT AS LONG AS IT IS SURPLUS STOCK BY HOBBYIST BECAUSE IT IS NOT A BUISNESS IT IS UNAFFECTED BY THIS RULE. JUST THINK ABOUT IT IF YOU DO SELL A FEW OF YOUR OFFSPRING AT A SHOW TO OFFSET YOUR COST IN KEEPING YOUR ANIMALS IS THAT A BUISNESS? I SAY NO!! THINK ABOUT IT THIS WAY YOU HOLD A GARAGE SELL ONCE A MONTH ARE THEN IN THE GARAGE SELL BUISNESS???? I DIN'T THINK SO

ALL SAID AND DONE THEY ARE STILL PENDING CHARGES ON A FEW OF US BUT I WANT TO LET THEM KNOW THAT I AM NOT GOING DOWN LIKE THIS I WILL GO FIGHTING IN COURT OR ANY PLACE ELSE I MAY NEED TO STICK UP FOR OUR RIGHTS!!!!

THE SHOW WILL GO ON AND ON! I FIRMLY BELIEVE WHAT DOESN'T KILL US MAKES US STRONGER AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE BECAUSE THEY HAVE JUST PISSED ALL OF US OFF AND WE ARE NOW UNITING FOR OUR RIGHTS.......... THANKS TO ALL WHO TOOK THE TIME TO READ THIS. PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CHECK OUT THE WEBSITE AND SEE FOR YOURSELF EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.

THANKS JASON
www.midwestreptileexpo.com

Reading about this in detail infuriates me even more. Again, the 4" regulation is a tenuous one. There will never be a situation where it is black and white. What if I get a few tortoises and would like to resell one or 2 to tortoise keepers. Just because I didn't produce them doesn't change the provision. The provision states "limited sales to other turtle fanciers may be permitted."

Please make available the email you got from an FDA rep either here or on your website.

Thanks

YES VERY UNBELIEVABLE....

WHAT UPSETS ME MOST IS NOT THE RULES AND REGULATIONS SURROUNDING OUR HOBBY, BUT THE IDIOTS WHO THEY SEND TO ENFORCE THEM. AND HOW THEY GO ABOUT ENFORCING THEM. I MEAN COME ON THESE PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW THE LAW BEFORE THEY ENFORCE IT AND THEY HAVE NO CLUE.

ANOTHER THING THAT UPSET ME WAS THAT THEY CONCENTRATED ON THE WATER TURTLES AND PAID NO ATTENTION TO THE TORTOISE AT THE SHOW AND ONE OF THE DNR OFFICERS SAID THE FDA RULE DOESN'T COVER TORTOISE!!!!! WHAT THE HELL DO THESE PEOPLE JUST NOT KNOW HOW TO READ????

AS SOON AS I CAN I WILL GET THAT EMAIL ON EITHER THE WEBSITE OR HERE ON KINGSNAKE.

THANKS JASON
WWW.MIDWESTREPTILEEXPO.COM

I was at the October Halloween Children's Costume Contest Reptile Expo Party last month that was raided by the IL DNR. After seeing all the stuff going on I wanted to know more about this turtle deal. I called the FDA office of Chicago IL and talked to a turtle specialist. We talked for about a half hour. He was very pleasant on the phone and answered almost all my questions when asked about the 4 inch rule. He said he has heard many times of "hobbyist" buying and selling small turtles and being fully legal doing so. As we talked we both discussed the rule and what kind of thinking was going on when written in 1975. He said the RES was a problem and the rule was made. But he said he knows of the provision to allow hobbyist to buy/sell/trade baby turtles and that does not mean everyone is a business. He said the rule was written to put dime stores out of the small turtle business and keep the public aware of the Salmonella risk. As I am told nowdays most baby turtles are capive bread under strict conditions/protocalls and it is very rare to ever see or here about a salmonella infection anywhere. I even asked my doctor about the risk and he laughed and said it was a thing of the past. So at this point I am not sure why all my tax money was spent for bending FDA rules in Oct. and upsetting little children at a show that the rule is suppose to protect those little ones? As all this is going on, who is protecting the air/water/earth for my children to enjoy, as they cannot enjoy themselves at Halloween anymore it seems????????...............................................................................................

This is what we have been thinking and interpreting. Please document your conversations and who you spoke with. If not publicly do so privately in case anyone here needs to refer to this for whatever reason down the road

I am very confused anymore after going to www.PJstar.com and doing a few simple searches on rules? Have the laws changed in IL or are we making them as they go or just interpreting them as they fit a mood?

Thursday October 27, 2005:

Quote from the Journal Star news paper:

"Alligators and other federally designated endangered species and venomous reptiles are barred from sale in Illinois, said DNR biologist/herpetologist Scott Ballard. Poison dart snakes, once removed from the food they eat in the wild, are not poisonous.......

Thursday, December 16, 2004:

Quote from the Jounal Star news paper:

"Illinois Department of Natural Resources herpetologist Scott Ballard said the state interprets the ruling to mean that people are allowed to own constricting snakes no bigger than 15 to 20 feet and alligators and crocodiles that are 4 feet or under.

But Ballard said once the snake, crocodile or alligator grows larger than those limits, it must be removed from Illinois.

Violations can result in a misdemeanor conviction or fines.

The Illinois Department of Agriculture, meanwhile, regulates those with licenses to sell reptiles. Pet stores, for example, are prohibited from owning or selling crocodiles or alligators of any size and constricting snakes that are 6 feet or longer."

Last year a vendor at a mall in WI was selling hatchling sliders, and his turtles tested positive for salmonella. This came about because several children became ill after thier parents purchased hatchling sliders from mall kiosks in WI.

Sooo, it does still happen. Vendors need to start being more honest with buyers (difficulty of care, size of adult animal, potential health risks) and buyers need to start doing more research before buying.

Katrina

really got sick from a babyy turtle well i read an article not to long ago about a study that was done and out of 500 res not one was foudn to have any disease when kept in a clean enviroment and ones kept in a dirty enviroment where found to be more likely to carry a disease and the crazy thing about the study is that 250 where babies and 250 were adults so you see babies turtles or any turtles for that matter do not have diseases it is the conditions in which they are kept. so maybe just maybe we shouldn't blame the baby turtles anymore and start looking in the mirror for whom to blame. tell me that you can not get sick from a big turtle as well as a small one??? or get sick from handling a snake or toad or frog after handling it and not washing your hands??? you can get just as sick from go to the bathroom and not washing your hands!!! so do we outlaw everything??? no my view is that parents should be accountable. they have been around they should know about the pet they are buying or at least have researched the potential hazards of having any pet before buying. it goes back 30 years when the turtles got blamed for having diseases and getting kids sick after putting the turtles in their mouths. so who should have been to blame there??? the turtles HELL NO the parents. when a 3 year old chokes on a toy that is clearly labled 5 years and up the toy manufacture should not be blamed!!!! i believe we live in a society today where no one wants to be responsible for their actions specially when it comes down to irresponsibility with their kids. it is much to easy to blame someone else or society for ones actions. i don't know all the facts of this case however it makes me sad to see we have not advanced one bit since 1973 in our thinking

Well I have seen these poor turtles in a 10 gallon aquarium on vacation in the Dells of WI. You have about 200 baby RES's in a 10 gallon aquarium with no filter, water smells like a sewer and is dark in color and you say kids got sick, no Duh. I don't care what kind of animal you put in that muck, it would be a hazzard to your health and make you sick. Maybe the FDA rule was written because of businesses like those in the WI Dells, over priced shops selling dying little turtles in an over crouded 10 gallon with no filter, muck dark colored water that smells like the sewer. The shops should be fined for animal crulety and put them on the animal planet channel. If they would keep the animals enviroment clean, there would be no problems, but no, lets blame the animal instead. If it was a dog or cat we would be there ASAP.

Also if we cannot figure out what proper hygene is, like you must wash your hands after handling any animal, then boy the bird flu outbreak may kill alot of people huh? Wash your hands, brush your teeth isn't just common stuff, everyday life? We could go on and on???????

I believe that originally when the salmonella outbreaks were occuring from baby turtles it was thought that the salmonella originated from the turtle farms feeding raw chicken to the turtles in their ponds. Anyone else heard this?

Does anyone have documentation showing that a tortoise was carrying salmonella and in turn infected someone? What about land based turtles? I heard that no land tortoises have ever infected anyone but would like to see some documentation. I ask because as the FDA law is written now it appears to cover all chelonians and not just aquatic turtles. I don't think any dimestores were selling tortoises back in the 50's and 60's when the four inch rule was written but if by chance they were...I don't think any kids, or adults, have ever acquired salmonella from tortoises? Maybe someone can add something here?

I know a lot of turtle keepers...and have never heard of anyone getting salmonella. I have a weakened immune system, been around turtles all of my adult life and sometimes I forget to wash my hands but I have never obtained salmonella. I think that feeding raw meats (especially chicken) to turtles increases the chances of the turtles carrying salmonella.

According to the WI State Dept. of Health report (link below)
there were exactly TWO cases.

A WI Public Radio newscast about the “turtle crackdown” by state and FDA officials reported that state officials estimated that over 20,000 baby sliders were sold in WI so far that summer, based on the store records of the violating businesses. Only 2 cases of RAS were reported as a result of the turtles. Them aint bad odds. Some epidemic!
Ed Stone, WI Herp.Society
State Health Dept. Report

A friend of mine was one of the people implicated in the selling of the turtles. A friend of his, is an infamous author who is a turtle enthusiast... he wrote this essay about the bust to my friend as a joke i guess you could say.

I thought i'd post this... spread it all over forums and email it to your friends... this is great

Another Illinois Reptile Bust
(Coyote vs. The Roadrunner)

By
Mr. Brach

You know being a reptile (herp) hobbyist and closely involved, but not directly implicated to these so-called “RAIDS” that have transpired at Reptile Trade shows in Illinois. I have come to a realization that I want to share with everybody, in an attempt that it may help things out in the long run. I feel there are a few things we need to discuss involving the certain powers that have organized these “RAIDS.” I am talking in direct to the people of the rule hardy, role crazy DNR. It’s about time someone gives you guys a reality check.
Now first off, we could go on to talk about what went down at these “RAIDS.” We could go on to say this person said this, this person said that, this person did this and this person did that. We could go on about interpretations, opinions. We could talk about rumor and gossip. So lets not talk about that… lets take a different approach. Sitting back and being a personal witness to it all. I cannot begin to tell you how unbelievably close the comparison of these “RAIDS” are to the cartoon COYOTE VS THE ROADRUNNER.
For those of you that may not know about what goes down in a “RAID” or in COYOTE VS THE ROADRUNNER, here’s the basic storyline. It starts off with the ROADRUNNER (reptile hobbyist) and he’s going about his routine. Little does he know that COYOTE (DNR) wants to catch the ROADRUNNER? The cartoon usually shows the COYOTE formulating this overly elaborate plan while muttering to himself what a SUPERGENIUS he is. The COYOTE gets all the resources he needs to execute his plan. The COYOTE gets his plan built and ready for his attack.
But when it comes time for the COYOTE to catch the ROADRUNNER by surprise… his plan goes terribly wrong because he doesn’t fully understand how everything works. The end result is usually something blowing up in his face. The ROADRUNNER goes off as if nothing happened. The COYOTE is left covered in the black soot from the bomb he created and has this confused and gloomy look on his face, followed by a few laughs from the people watching. The COYOTE will keep trying and trying different plans of approach. But no matter how hard he tries, the result is the same.
Now, you understand part of the correlation. A reptile “RAID” is kind of one in the same. A word of advice to the powers that supposedly be… before you guys go to these shows and organize these “RAIDS”… don’t make things up as you go along – actually read up on everything so that way you know what you are doing. You do get most of the stuff right. But it’s those one or two things that cause the TNT to misfire and blow up in your face. Because that’s the end result… isn’t it.
And furthermore, don’t go around asking the person you’re busting what species it is and asking whether it’s legal or not. This is the part in the COYOTE vs THE ROADRUNNER when the COYOTE accidentally walks off a cliff. And while suspended in midair, turns into a white cone shaped hat with big black letters that spell the word DUNCE. I could only imagine what the world would be like if the ATF, DEA, and NARCS did drug raids this way. You don’t see those authority figures having flour, sugar, salt, and cocaine spread out on a kitchen table -- asking the drug dealer what everything is and if any of it is illegal… do you boys???
Now granted there are some scum and shady deals going down in the reptile world. But that’s just a minute group that gives the majority a bad name. We tried suggesting laws and/or regulations that might help eliminate that element. But you guys turned a deaf ear to that. Because making sensible well-organized regulations, free of pessimistic interpretation doesn’t get your name in the paper, nor get that promotion you want, or impress that girl that’s half your age. Because making things practical, so there are no misunderstandings… that’s just too hard isn’t boys?
And stop attacking turtle people. Turtle people aren’t criminals or some scapegoat for your attacks, leave them alone. The FDA made that regulation as a health risk; it’s not a reptile regulation. You don’t have jurisdiction going after fast-food places for salmonella do you? If you want to target someone to get your name in the paper… go after Ball Python breeders. Because that’s the only crime I see at a show. $50,000 for a ball python that has genetic defects and is inbred… that is highway robbery and should be illegal. (But to my ball python breeders… if you can get that kind of money for a ball python, more power to you.)
But maybe, it’s best if you DNR guys stick to what you’re good at. More importantly, stick to what you know. And that’s playing in the streams, lakes, and rivers with the fish. Stop wasting tax dollars, court time, and newspaper headlines when there is plenty of drama that is far more important for those three causes… because in the end… like the COYOTE… you don’t really get what you want.

written by mr. brach, author of "Hunting in the Wild"

I am rolling on the floor pissing my pants laughing so hard. I couldn't have said it any better myself that is way way to funny. Thanks for everything you said it just really really brings it home. I just hope that one of the DNR officials bosses see this and realize what a joke these operations are....I think their job files may even be labeled "ACME"

sincerely
The Roadrunner BEEP BEEP

>>I am rolling on the floor pissing my pants laughing so hard. I couldn't have said it any better myself that is way way to funny. Thanks for everything you said it just really really brings it home. I just hope that one of the DNR officials bosses see this and realize what a joke these operations are....I think their job files may even be labeled "ACME"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>sincerely
>>The Roadrunner BEEP BEEP
-----
Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

Send these guys your thoughts and opinions to the following email for IL DNR Law enforcement:

jsample@dnrmail.state.il.us

Maybe someone there can come on here and explain their inappropriate behavior?

A judge decides on how to interprete the rules and laws, not anyone else. Has anyone else heard about this class action law suite against the State of IL? There has been rumors running wild about a bunch of people with an attorney and going to sue the state of IL. Has anyone else heard sbout this going down? I remember hearing about a bunch of people in FL did the same thing and won a huge case against the state of FL. FL DNR did a lot this stuff going on here in IL and people got fed up with it quickly and actually got a lot of the laws laxed for Herps. Remember there is power in numbers for sure when your a voter and you start contacting your representives on the phone, the squeaky gear gets the grease, voice yourself its your right as a United States Citizen............