Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I had previously posted here about 2 leos that I adopted and were a little under the weather health wise, here is the old post for additional infromation:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=928432,928432

This is an update and then I have several questions I could use some help with:

Friday night I got both of them to eat between 5-7 crickets (dusted), 3-5 mealworms, and 2 butterworms each. They had orginally only had 1 hide, and I made another out of a butter dish. The female spent most of her time here, and the male in the dry hide.

Saturday night I made them another moist hide out of a clear square tupperware container and they ate about 3-5 crickets (dusted), 3-5 mealworms, and 2 butterworms. No one seemed to stay in the clear moist hide I had made them. They both used the restroom twice this weekend.

Sunday I was able to get them another hide, so they now have 2 rock formation hides on the cool end, and 2 moist hids on the dry end. That evening I found them both piled into the butter bowl, which has just enough groundspace for one to curl up in, so they were stacked. They seemed to sleep through the evening this time around, and didn't come out for feeding. The male emerged once, and ate a mealworm, and went back in the butter bowl with the female. It was so cramped! They both look alot better to me. This morning the were in seperate hides again.

Now for alot of questions.
1. Is there a reason anyone might think of that they do not want to use the clear moist hide? Do you think it is difficult for them to see it or the entrance? I got this one because it had more ground space for them, I was afraid the butter bowl was going to be too small. What should I do?

2. Should I be concerned that they are both stacking in this one hide?

3. I am buying a digital thermometer today to test the temps in the cage, I hadn't been able to find one yet. If I am using an UTH, do I set the probe on the floor to test the heat, or am I testing the ambient temperture on both sides of the cage?

4. Someone mentioned removing the female from the cage for now. They have been in the same cage most of their lives, and I'm not sure if this is necessary or not... They both appear to be lively and eating... what do you think?

5. I got these guys friday morning. Is it too early to start handling them to get them use to being picked up and what not. The previous owner said that they had been handled before and were very friendly, but the male seems to be startled easily and I don't want to add any extra stress to his life.

6. When I got them I removed the sand, but did not have anything on hand, including time, to disinfect the cage yet. I am picking up some chlorhexidine 2% today to clean their cage with, and am wondering if I shouldn't wait a few days to clean it so that they are not completely stressed out?

7. They were previously on green calci-sand, and I immediately noticed that some of the tips of their toes were green. My guess is that this might be unshed skin that has been turned green from the sand. I know several sites mention removed this with a wet Q-tip to avoid further infections. But as I have never before handled these guys or had leopard geckos, I have no idea how to get them to sit still and let me clean their toes! LOL Advice?

Sorry for the massive amounts of questions... new owner trying to do things right the first time around.

Thanks
Tania
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

Well, its great that your leos are eating. Have you run fecals yet? If you havent i would bring samples to the vet asap to check them for parasites, lizard that undergo a stressfull period (such as not being properly cared for) tend to get parasites.

How underweight are the little guys?

And now..for your questions:

Now for alot of questions.
1. (Is there a reason anyone might think of that they do not want to use the clear moist hide? Do you think it is difficult for them to see it or the entrance? I got this one because it had more ground space for them, I was afraid the butter bowl was going to be too small. What should I do?)

They may not want to use the hide because they feel too exposed, try darkening the sides with paper or at least covering the top.

2. Should I be concerned that they are both stacking in this one hide?

I wouldn't be too worried about it, its not exactly a sign of disease. Watch their general behavior, they should start to spread out and use a variety of hides.

3. I am buying a digital thermometer today to test the temps in the cage, I hadn't been able to find one yet. If I am using an UTH, do I set the probe on the floor to test the heat, or am I testing the ambient temperture on both sides of the cage?

You can use it for both! Its very important to temp the substrate, as that is where your leos hang out, but its good to know ambient temps to.

4. Someone mentioned removing the female from the cage for now. They have been in the same cage most of their lives, and I'm not sure if this is necessary or not... They both appear to be lively and eating... what do you think?

Generally speaking it is inadvisable to house leos together, esepecially one male to one female. This is mainly because the male (when in good health) will constantly breed with the female. This presents you with several issues, the first and most apparent being that the female will not have a chance to re-coup after each breeding. Constant breeding without time alone to restrengthen will cause her to lose weight and stamina, and eventaully fall ill to a stress related disease. The other issue is that you do not know the lineage of these animals, which means its likely they are brother and sister. In this case they should not be bred under any circumstances. Other issues that come into play with housing multiple leos is that the stress of having competition for food does not produce optimum conditions for growth. Also, its harder to care for and treat the animals. Say you come home one day and there is a nasty pile of vomit or runy stool in the cage. Which leo is feeling ill? If the leos were seperate you could begin therapy immediately. Not knowing which leo left yout he present will mean you are wasting valuable time that could be spent helping him/her.

Having said this, i think these guys have been through enough for right now. When they are back on their feet and eating regularly i would seperate them.

5. I got these guys friday morning. Is it too early to start handling them to get them use to being picked up and what not. The previous owner said that they had been handled before and were very friendly, but the male seems to be startled easily and I don't want to add any extra stress to his life.

I would give them a few more days, or until they are eating on a regular basis and have had a clean fecal.

6. When I got them I removed the sand, but did not have anything on hand, including time, to disinfect the cage yet. I am picking up some chlorhexidine 2% today to clean their cage with, and am wondering if I shouldn't wait a few days to clean it so that they are not completely stressed out?

I probably would wait a couple days...again the most important thing here is they start eating regularly.

7. They were previously on green calci-sand, and I immediately noticed that some of the tips of their toes were green. My guess is that this might be unshed skin that has been turned green from the sand. I know several sites mention removed this with a wet Q-tip to avoid further infections. But as I have never before handled these guys or had leopard geckos, I have no idea how to get them to sit still and let me clean their toes! LOL Advice?

Calci-sand will die regular skin, not just dead shed skin green, so it may just be dyed skin. This will go away after the next shed. However, if its dry skin, you can help by first giving your leos humid hides (like you already have). You can also warm water soak them in shallow 100degree water and then gently roll their toes through your fingers to loosen the skin.

Hope this helps!

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0.1 Bearded dragon (Hannabil)
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake (Morticia)
2.1 Leopard Gecko's (Pogo,Jeffrey Nothing, Louise)
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn (Autumn)
1.0 Blood Red Corn (Virus)
0.1 Bullmastiff (Asha)
4.1 Cats (Poe, Tucker, Abhid, Felicity, Emmy)

"The other issue is that you do not know the lineage of these animals, which means its likely they are brother and sister. "

They are not brother and sister... one was obtained by the previous owner by a breeder, and then the other was adpoted from a friend a couple of years later in a different state.

I am so frustrated and confused... I had read on several sites that you could keep 1 male and 1 female together just fine... If they've survived 6 years of less than optimal living circumstances together, couldn't they thrive under the optimal circumstances together?

I have not done fecals on either of them yet. They were not wild caught and I simply do not have the funds to do that kind of vet bill at this point in time. *sigh* It appears in my attempts to help, I've gotten myself into an undesireable position yet again.
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

I don't know if it helped or not, but I put a color napkin on the top of the clear moist hide. When I went home for lunch they were both in that butter bowl again... lol...
Here is the picture I took when I first got them:
(their cage has since been cleaned and calci-sand removed)
I will try and get some pics of their setup tonight, and update pics of them.

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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

I got my digital thermometer/hygrometer this evening and popped it in the cage to see what readings we were getting.
It seems to be about 88.5 up against the bottom of the tank and around 87ish ambient temperature on the hot side of the tank. The far part of the cool side seems to be staying between 75.5 and 77. I did notice that when the female came out briefly this evening (it was almost 9 before anyone made an appearance) that she is definitely about to shed. She got right up against the glass and crawled into my hand so I got a closer look at her today. She seems to be missing the tips of some toes, but nothing that happened recently. It just looks like some toes are too short, and don't have claws. She stuck her nose up at the mealworms this evening, and ate 3 butterworms before using the restroom and going back in the humid hide. The male still looks colorful even though he's hanging out in the humid hide also. Thats all for now.
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

I found our empty 10 gallon aquarium. If I need to I can move her and two hides into this tank. I don't have another adhesive UTH, but I have a human heating pad that I am testing the temps on as we speak. As I mentioned before, they hve not been competing for food and I have never seen them fighting. She appears to be shedding now. I dont know if I should move her or not. I would rather keep them together if possibly simply because I have no idea where I am going to put two tanks. Please help!! I just want to do the best for them...
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

Some people will tell you that they get stressed from being together. Which could make it harder to get them back to health. I am not saying this isn't true, but considering they are used to each other I don't think it will hurt them. I have a male and a female that I have been keeping together for 4 years. They have a pecking order with food, but as long as there is enough for booth of them it isn't a problem. She is so fat I am going to have to put her on a diet. Not that he is tiny himself(78grams). You just have to keep an eye on them. I haven't seen mine fight over anything. Infact the one time I seperated them because he had a prolapse during breeding. So I was giving him time to heal. She was all over her cage until I put him back. Just make sure they also have plenty of hideouts.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

Thanks for the response. I have four hides in there right now, but they seem to be spending all their time in the one humid hide, all curled up together. I have no idea why they wont use the other humid hide made from a clear tupperware container. I put a colored napkin on top in case they were having trouble seeing... Do you have any ideas for something else that I could use to cheaply make another humid hide? Or should I just wait and see if they move into it? It seems to hold the humidity alot better than the other one that they are spending all their time in. Also, they haven't been coming out to eat for the last couple of days. They are spending all their time in that humid hide, which makes it nearly impossible for me to check the papertowels and make sure they are wet. Is it normal for them to stop eating as much during a shed?
Thanks
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

I use glad tupperware for my humid hides. I cut a hole in the top of the lid for them .Then I fill them half way with spagnum moss. It is leo safe and holds moisture longer than paper towels. You should be able to find it at a gardening center. Also if they are eating alot they are probably putting on some size pretty quick. Which is why the are in the humid hide so much. I keep a pair of fat tails and leos and they only have one humid hide per cage. I wouldn't be as concerned with how often they eat as how much and of what they are eating. I hope you are gutloading your feeders and dusting with calcium and vitamins.Just keep an eye on their stool. If it is runny or all white there is a problem. You want a solid mosyly dark brownish mass. I am going to show you my set up and tell me if it helps?
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

Their stool is blackish/brown and solid. I am gutloading their feeders and I dusted them with calcium the first two feedings. They ate a whole lot those first two nights, and then haven't been out for food since then. The next feeding they will get vitamins. They did look a little fatter the third night I had them, so I am not surprised that they are trying to shed. It just doesn't seem like their interested in eating during the process.

I wasn't able to view a picture of your setup... but I would like to see one if you could post it. Thanks
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

I only feed my geckos every two to three days. So if they pigged out they might not be hungry. Check the temps in the cage to see if it is warm enough where they are at.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

Temps seem to be ranging from 84.5 at night to 90.0 during the day (these were taken right at the ground) on the hot side of the cage.
Yesterday I thought it was weird because the female would eat butterworms, but kept sniffing and/or licking the mealworms and walking away.
Their previous owner had them on a diet of only crickets. When I got them I fed them crickets, mealworms, and butter worms that night and the following. They ate anywhere from 5-7 crickets, 3-4 mealworms, 2 butterworms the first night, and 3-5 crickets, 3-5 mealworms, 2 butterworms the next night. Sunday night the male ate a mealworm, but thats all. Female nothing. Last night the female ate 3 butterworms, male nothing.
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter

Sounds like they are eating OK.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

One of my set ups. It has radient heat in the floor of each cage on indavidual reastats. Also seperate lighting and ventalation.

These two are always in here laying on top of each other.

She shares a home and look at her. (Thats fat not eggs)

Here is an example of the humid hide I use.

This is a closer look at one of the cages.

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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

I can see icons, but they are broken links...?
If it is just me, feel free to email them to me at taniamc@gmail.com.
But I am able to see the rest of the pictures on here, so maybe its not just me?
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~~Tania~~
1.0 Chinese Water Dragon - Jake
1.1 Leopard Geckos - Chorky and Gilbey
1.0 Maltese Shi Tzu Mix - Mosley
RIP 1.1 Med. Geckos - Mary and Peter