Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had read some preliminary research into the theory that many reptiles may possess natural, symbiotic intestinal parasites. I never again heard of this. I'm aware of many intestinal parasites that are natural fauna in the guts of other animals. My question is, has anyone heard the latest on this as it relates to box turtles? Basically, should I be giving my turtles Panacur when there pinworms in their tummies that are going to aide in their digestion? The Veterinary community has not been very helpful to me. Please keep replies relatively short. Remember, the key to good communication is brevity. I've really enjoyed stumbling across this new forum, but I have to confess that I don't have time to read any messages that are too verbose. I'm usually on this during my lunch break. Feel free to send me the links that you may reference. Thanks for your time.

I haven't heard of the research that you mentioned, but it sounds very interesting, and promising.
Here is a link that may be of interest to you with regards to Panacur (and more) that you may not have seen.
Regards
Stephanie
Link

That link provides a great summary. In my own experience I've never dosed an animal without veterinary assistance and then only if the animal seemed to be in obvious decline. I'd also be very interested in any links to articles on symbiotic parasites

That site is a smidgen biased in my opinion.

I'm thinking it is a vet trying to preserve his business.

There is no documented evidence to support his claims that there is any resistance being developed in the case of larger parasites... viruses and bacteria is another issue.

There are many turtle/tortoise keepers who treat their own animals in the case of protozoa and larger parasites where a big collection of chelonians is concerned. The consideration here is that this is after years of keeping chelonians with the aid of a good vet at the start.

>>I haven't heard of the research that you mentioned, but it sounds very interesting, and promising.
>>Here is a link that may be of interest to you with regards to Panacur (and more) that you may not have seen.
>>Regards
>>Stephanie
>>Link
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

When you ask an involved question like that (which the mentioned vets don't venture to clarify), I'm not sure that brevity will assure the best communication. But, I understand the lunchbreak thing, so I'll try to abide by the request.

Intestinal parasites seem common to most turtle species in which they've been investigated. Just like fish, turtles are internal parasite hubs. The parasite overloads in many traded turtle species, especially those from the tropics, are not based on alien parasites that invade, but rather, indigenous parasites that take advantage of a weakened animal and spin out of numeric control. I think it's safe to assume that since most phyla of internal parasites have been around for a long time, turtles have had plenty of time to adapt to making accomodations for them. If turtles aren't fed parasite-ridden foods (like live bait fish), there should be little need to worm them. Preemptive treatment can be overdone, and panacur won't kill every critter you find in a turtle's gut.

What's really impressive are the brief studies conducted back when there was little moral regard against splitting open large numbers of turtles; snail-eating species such as box turtles revealed impressive numbers of flukes. Flukes aren't so friendly as intestinal parasites like nematodes, since flukes live in the lungs, heart, etc. All of the animals in those studies were apparently average wild collected critters and showed no ill effect of the parasites. That's normally the case when animals "grow up" together over the eons. It's when we alter a natural state that things go awry.

It's not really a symbiotic relationship. Symbiosis implies that both the host and resident benefit.

Most WC critters harbor parasites without detrimental effects to the host as long as the host is healthy. I consider boxies to be up there with the worse.

I don't even want to do a fecal on my boxies for fear of what I might see.

As long as they are healthy and active I don't even consider parasite load.

My guys are housed outdoors 24/7.

>>I had read some preliminary research into the theory that many reptiles may possess natural, symbiotic intestinal parasites. I never again heard of this. I'm aware of many intestinal parasites that are natural fauna in the guts of other animals. My question is, has anyone heard the latest on this as it relates to box turtles? Basically, should I be giving my turtles Panacur when there pinworms in their tummies that are going to aide in their digestion? The Veterinary community has not been very helpful to me. Please keep replies relatively short. Remember, the key to good communication is brevity. I've really enjoyed stumbling across this new forum, but I have to confess that I don't have time to read any messages that are too verbose. I'm usually on this during my lunch break. Feel free to send me the links that you may reference. Thanks for your time.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...to the part about not considering parasite load if they are healthy.
Our group of easterns here no doubt have intestinal parasites, but they are in good health overall: we do not dose them with anything.

Stephanie

I, like you, think that parasites in box turtles are not symbiotic. Unless evidence convinces me otherwise. That is what I am seeking...evidence that parasites may aide box turtle digestion. The blurb that I read was about Iguanids who seem to maintain colonies of pinworms in their guts that help them break down plant cellulose, much like the bacteria that inhabit the intestines of termites. I, as you, will continue to think of parasites in box turtles as detrimental until some research shows otherwise. Thanks for the reply.

I'd like to see that study or evidence.

I think your final conclusion is the right one.

>>I, like you, think that parasites in box turtles are not symbiotic. Unless evidence convinces me otherwise. That is what I am seeking...evidence that parasites may aide box turtle digestion. The blurb that I read was about Iguanids who seem to maintain colonies of pinworms in their guts that help them break down plant cellulose, much like the bacteria that inhabit the intestines of termites. I, as you, will continue to think of parasites in box turtles as detrimental until some research shows otherwise. Thanks for the reply.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I'll try to look it up for you. It may take a few days. Don't laugh at me, it is merely a blurb...but thought provoking nonetheless. Oh, and I have to correct myself. It's highly unlikely that ascarids or most intestinal parasites would aide in plant cellulose digestion because they can't really do that either. I don't know what benefit they could have on the reptilian host. Maybe they merely listed them as natural gut inhabitants for the simple fact that most wild Iguanids have them. Thanks.

You last comment is probably the one that is on the mark.

>>I'll try to look it up for you. It may take a few days. Don't laugh at me, it is merely a blurb...but thought provoking nonetheless. Oh, and I have to correct myself. It's highly unlikely that ascarids or most intestinal parasites would aide in plant cellulose digestion because they can't really do that either. I don't know what benefit they could have on the reptilian host. Maybe they merely listed them as natural gut inhabitants for the simple fact that most wild Iguanids have them. Thanks.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I found that article. It is in the August 2003 Reptiles magazine. It actually does state the pinworms can help digest cellulose in herbivorous lizards. I don't know how that is possible, and they don't go too deep into it. Basically, someone asks them a question about worms in their Beardie. They go on to say that some pinworms are natural inhabitants. As box turtles are primarily insectivorous, and not herbivorous...I guess it wouldn't really apply. I wish that I could find more on the subject, but nobody seems to know where I should look. Thanks. Let me know if you want that page scanned and emailed to you...I don't know how to do that on this forum.

Where this idea probably comes from is that there are nematodes found in soil that look very much like pinworms and might even be pinworms. It might be safer to say,without concrete evidence, that it is possible that...

After a quick Goole search I found this

http://mint.ippc.orst.edu/pincycle.htm

In this case the parasite does not break down the cellulose but drains the cell fluid of the plant. That doesn't mean that there are not types that do break down cellulose.

As I've always suspected there are many kinds of nematodes and many more that haven't even been fully identified yet (and that's just nematodes). It wouldn't be too far fetched to say that there might be a type that does form a kind of symbiotic relationship.

(talk about going off on a tangent)

>>I found that article. It is in the August 2003 Reptiles magazine. It actually does state the pinworms can help digest cellulose in herbivorous lizards. I don't know how that is possible, and they don't go too deep into it. Basically, someone asks them a question about worms in their Beardie. They go on to say that some pinworms are natural inhabitants. As box turtles are primarily insectivorous, and not herbivorous...I guess it wouldn't really apply. I wish that I could find more on the subject, but nobody seems to know where I should look. Thanks. Let me know if you want that page scanned and emailed to you...I don't know how to do that on this forum.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

That was really interesting. I appreciate it. That's the kind of stuff that I was looking for. Thanks for your effort. I've always thought that if a person is narcisistic enough to want to name a species after themselves, they should get into entomology. It is still quite a budding field, and new nematodes are not only possible, but likely. I've always wanted a Terrapene carolina sopherii, but an invertebrate is more realistic. I'm kidding, of course.
I am going to try to refine my Pubmed search, and maybe I can come up with something relating to box turtles. P.S. about that August 2003 issue...all turtle enthusiasts would probably love to check it out. They have a great article on turtle conservation.

Fecal tests don't cost much. I never dose any animal with anything unless I have concrete evidence that they need the medication. The reason why is because all drugs are potential poisons. Reptile dosages have been established through empirical data & modified from mammal dosages, it's easy to make a fatal mistake. Because of that I see no reason to put meds into them unless I know for certain that they need it.

It's extremely rare to find a wild ornate in my region that does carry parasites. One vet I know has a theory that because it's so hot here the soil isn't supporting the parasites therefore the turtles aren't picking them up. In general wild caught reptiles often do carry a light load of parasites which may not cause any harm to them in the wild but when you put them in captivity where conditions are now unnatural the parasite load could grow & then they'd need treatment. Still I wouldn't treat them unless I knew for certain they need it.

We test every box turtle that comes into our possesion, so far we've seen 0 parasites.
We test our other species on a regular basis. Only twice in the past 11 years have any needed treatment.
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PHRatz

It's a geographic thing. I live in the Southeast...the parasite capital of the US. I work at a vet, and test fecals on turtles that I rescue. These are immuno-compromised animals without exception. They almost always have some type of roundworm, rarely have they required any additional anthelmintic save a few that required Metronidazole. These animals are treated and released when healthy in their area of origin. My concern is, am I doing them a disservice by eliminating what may be natural fauna in their system? I just thought that maybe someone would have heard of this. I guess nobody really knows, so everyone treats them just in case. I can live with that. I appreciate your reply. I acutally wanted to ask you another question. I think it was you who replied to my ornate box turtle question. I have always wanted to keep my turtles as you do...let them wander at will around my backyard. My question is, are you able to find the females' nests in order to artificially incubate the eggs? That would be a problem for me. I know that many people just let the eggs incubate outside, then harvest the young that they come across. I couldn't do that...I'm too worried about ants, crow, and my own clumsy self. If I ever stepped on a hidden baby, I would absolutely lose it. Do you have any secrets? Thank you

You're probably not compromising box turtle systems by eradicating intestinal parasites before setting the turtles loose, since they'll quickly regain parasites with their future meals. Worms, snails, almost any "wet" invert will transmit something to a box turtle's gut besides nutriment.

Be cautious about hidden pathogens you may not be eradicating before releasing the animals. The potential for turtles to develop foreign or intensified strains of papthogens (bacterial, viral or otherwise) while in captivity, only to expose conspecifics in the wild to such disease upon release, is becoming of increasing concern.

>>You're probably not compromising box turtle systems by eradicating intestinal parasites before setting the turtles loose, since they'll quickly regain parasites with their future meals. Worms, snails, almost any "wet" invert will transmit something to a box turtle's gut besides nutriment.
>>
I agree with that, they'll just pick up more parasites when they eat anyway.

As for nesting outdoors. This year is the first year we've had a female lay eggs in the yard, something dug them up & ate them. We have coyotes, skunks, & foxes around here that can get inside our fence. There is no way to keep them out without a large dog living outside in the yard. Our neighbors with large dogs have problems with their large dogs getting sprayed a lot.. skunks particularly like to eat eggs & based on the small mammal footprints I found around the area I think it was a skunk that ate them.
People I know with groups of ornates who live in more traditional residential neighborhoods than I do don't seem to have any problems with babies hatching out in the backyard. Their major problem is mowing the lawn, they have to be very careful with that lawnmower.
One person I know with a large group did a lot of concrete work in the yard, made walking paths, planted large gardens of tomaotoes, squash & other veggies the turtles will eat so there isn't very much left to mow & there's a lot of cover for any hatchlings that may show up.
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PHRatz