Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, I know a lot of you guys may not be concerned but I do have a strong interest in hypo Hondurans, because there is a lot of variation in the hypos that I don't think many of us pay attention to.

first off I think there are three different types of "hypo" Hondurans.

1."Regular" hypo that is still dark but not as dark as a normal... this hypo ages and still develops tipping some more than others and has dark colored eyes

2."Lavender banded" hypo: hypo that has a lighter orange than the regular hypo, with lighter bands that appear almost purple/lavender and has ruby red eyes, when these age there is no tipping.

3. Extreme Hypo: Very light Bright orange, super light bands (gray), Ruby red eyes, show no tipping with age.

Now I strongly believe type 2 and 3 are more than just hypo Hondurans. I do believe that they popped up out hypo projects but their is more to it than just a hypo. (yes the definition of hypo in this case is reduced black and we do see a reduction in the black pigment, there maybe more to it)

Now I feel the following breeding should be done, and results should be compared

"Regular" X "Regular" - note how many if any ruby eyed offspring are produced

"Lavender" x "Lavender" - note if there are any "regular" offspring produced/ or if all hatchlings are ruby eyed hypos.

"Extreme" X "Extreme" note is any "regular" offspring are produced, note if you produce all "Extremes," if there are one or two, that are not "Extreme" but are still lighter than a regular hypo/ do you see lighter bands and ruby eyes.

not sure if one breeder has all the "ingredients" to conduct this experiment but I'm sure some of you have at least a few, please try to work together on this, lets see what happens

I would like to hear the thoughts of others on this matter as well.

Thanx

~ZF

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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

I've been studying the hypo morph also not be breeding(yet) but by the forums and pics here on Kingsnake. I see that hypos only show tipping where the orange or yellow banding is never in the red. There might be another morph involved in hypos like Hypererythrism(High Red) which is the opposite of Anerythrism(no red). Anyways I have a couple of different lines which will be bred together over the next couple years. Here's a cool hypo from Randy Wittington notice how wide the orange bands are. She was an offspring from het to het breeding and has a voracious appetite.
Dave Stevens

It has been my experience that there is only one hypo gene and it is extremely variable. You can get snakes from extremes to snakes that are almost clean tangerines in a single clutch of hypos and everything in between. Anery also vary allot and it only makes sense that ghost are also variable. Some ghost are clean and pink and some are closer too a nice clean anery and are hard to tell apart. As differnet desirable traits are selective bred the results are the clutches do get more refined. Thats what's happening now. Remember all the hypos go back to one animal that was a very clean tangerine, the original tangerine dream that Bill Love had. Hypomelanism means reduce black pigment not absence of black pigment. Does not matter if it is slightly reduce in amount or color or greatly reduce in amount or degree, they're all are hypos. That's my opinion base on experience. mike

Mike I was hoping you'd reply! What happens in your extreme to extreme breeding? Do all the offspring hatch extreme? This will clear up my lav. albino cal. theory thing.
Dave

Hi Dave,

I think to answer your question when an extreme is bred to another extreme, Mike Alvarez had this breeding experience and of the 6 hatchlings, 5 were extremes and one was questionable. Mike Falcon and even Terry Dunham can elaborate on this...correct me if I am wrong Mike or Terry but I think it kinda supports what Mike Falcon was saying that within the hypo, it has varying degrees and the extreme hypo is part of that whole hypo spectrum.

Thanks,
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RAY

I am really not sure. The snakes Mike A. had came from me (thru Andy Barr) but i never saw all the babies but the parents were not some of the nicer extremes I produced. I have an absolutely 10 on a scale of 10 pair holdbacks that should go next year. I will have to wait until I draw a conclusion on exactly how it works. One thing for sure is nice female extremes are hard to come by. Most of the ones you see are males.

Hey Mike i do respect your experience and your opinion but i have to ask how do you account for the ruby red eyes, like you would see in a T positive albino? i don't think these things are albinos at all, but i think there is more to it.

Few questions if you don't mind:
When you bred the hypo X het pair and produced the 1st extreme what did the rest of the clutch look like? and how many extremes were produced in the first clutch? did all the hypos have ruby red eyes. was the hypo parent of the extreme light or a pretty normal in appearance.

Have you bred extreme to extreme and what were your results?

have you breed to non extreme but still considerably light hypos (ruby red eyes) together, can you remember what was hatched (all light with ruby red eyes)?

Thanx

~ZF
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

Hey Zenny, I have never bred hypo to het, always hypo to hypo. From the original pair I bought from Terry I get the following: From a cluth of 12 eggs this year, 2 nice red eyes extremes, 1 that somewhat extremeish, 2 vanishing patterns, 3 real nice light hypos, then 4 average dark hypo. Only the extremes have the red eyes and the rest have black eyes. I have bred my extreme to a albino tri color and that produce all normal looking animals that are DH. These DHs will actually bred this next year. Maybe an extreme hybino what ever that might look like. The original pair are a nice extreme male (pinstripe) and a nice clean hypo female. See previous post about breeding extreme to extreme. One other oservation is the vasishing/pinstripes seems to be lighter and closer looking to the extremes.

Simple math and genetics would lead us to believe that if the Lavender Albino/Extreme gene occured first in the HYPO line, that there would be a 3rd,as yet unidentified and unnamed,phenotype--the EXTREME HYPO.(By the way,this is why I never thought EXTREME a suitable name as it implies judgement). Technically,I think that the likely scenario is that there are 1)HYPOS,2)Lavender Albinos/Extremes and 3)UNNAMED DOUBLE MORPH. Its only through test breedings(like the HYBINO)that will seperate these lines...and they will likely never be truely "pure"with recessive genes most likely present.
I dont know how the hondo guys would market these at all either. Proof will likely be years away. There are now several of these problematical multi-morph lines in colubrids. Because they are all recessive it would stand to reason given a long enough trial and a big enough sample we could isolate these genes.....but it is more likely that these will continue to happen at random rather than anyone cleaning up the lines on purpose. This is the problem with racing to get the newest morph...we miss a few along the way,Jeff

You might be on to something. I just checked out the morph page from VMSherp and did you know there's three different types of albinos? I have a few questions too for any of the high-rollers out there reading this thread.
1. Has anyone bred an extreme to an albino?
2. What happens if you breed a lavender cal. king to an albino cal. king? Is the lavender a form of albino?
I'll be test breeding myself in a couple years but I'm sure someone already knows the answers to our questions.
Dave Stevens

I believe that Kevin Hanley bred his Extreme to an albino last season. I remember seeing one pair of these available for sale.

Last year Jeff Alloway produced a unique albino from triple het to triple het breeding that has a lavender look to it. Nobody is sure yet whether it is showing the Extreme trait or not. You can see pictures of it on the albinotricolors website in the images directory listed under filenames beginning with "odd...".

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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Were Hanley's just double het for hybino??
Dave

I think this morph should of ben called "Sunshine Daydream"

yes. Don't know who bought them.
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

For 2006 I will be breeding Jeff's "ODD" male to 1 of my tricolor albinos, an anery, a tricolor hypo and a tangerine hypo. I hope the breedings will prove him to be a new morph. I may breed him to a snow as well. I have been wondering if it's possible he is a hybino? But from what we have seen so far hybinos are faded tangerines so this would rule that idea out.

I have the female here that produced the tricolor extreme looking hypo that Shannon recently posted in the forum. She is a hypo 2/3 chance het albino.

I may breed the "odd" male to her also.

Jeff did hold back some females from the "odd" clutch, but non are ready for breeding yet.

2006 will be an interesting year for the hondurans, I have a feeling other hobbiest have some interesting things for next spring. Some of the puzzles may finally be solved.

Throw in the stripe thing Marc Bailey has to some of these morphs...can you imagine a striped tangerine albino or a striped extreme hypo????

by breeding a normal albino to a lavender cali king, you will produce a hypoish looking Double Hets.

"If you breed a lavender albino to a "normal" albino, you will get "normal" babies that look like they are Hypomelanistic. It's no secret... I know plenty that have done this on accident, thinking they had 2 lavenders, or 2 albinos, and instead had 1 of each. The 2 morphs are not compatible with each other, and for some reason when you breed them together they just come out extremely light.

Try it for yourself... you'll see.
__________________
Mike"

Here is a link to a thread about this issue:

http://www.[bleep].com/forums/showthread.php?t=72228

hope that answer the question

Nevo Schwartz
theard

...
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=226665&user=76130

Trying to follow this thread but got a little lost. When you all say lav. albino are you refering to T albinos? and when you breed a T- to T you get hypo looking animals?

Thanks,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Trying to follow this thread but got a little lost. When you all say lav. albino are you refering to Tplus albinos? and when you breed a T- to Tplus you get hypo looking animals?

(Sorry for the odd Tplus but I cant get a plus sign to show up.)

Thanks,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Yes, just wondering about the three types of albinos?T-, T , and the other is where yellow comes in on some albinos and snow animals.
Dave

Hey your right plus doesn't appear! I think it's a conspiracy to keep Tplus talk down to a minimum.
HA,HA,HA
Dave

I see. I bet that the third type you mentioned (where the yellow comes through) is not a distinct form though. Yellow can be made other ways that do not involve melanin production (it could develop in older animals as other pigments oxidize-- like a cut apple or it could be xanthin showing up, which is made a diff. way than melanin).

If this makes a plus sign + than you need to use HTML for special characters on the boards. A plus sign would be amperstandpound43. If not, the conspiracy grows deeper....

Thanks for the clarification,
Vinny

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

They want to write T , but the "plus sign" doesn't show up.

Unfortunately, PHP treats the plus sign as a space character and it gets stripped out. I have found no way to preserve it.

You can try to enter the HTML code for the plus symbol.

A plus sign is & # 4 3 ; (don't include the spaces between 5 characters.

For example, 1 1 = 2

This is from one of the developers here on pethobbyist.com

Hope it helps.
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phflame

I never mentioned a thing about "plain"albinos. The 3 types I mentioned was the EXTREME, the HYPO and a possible double morph of the 2. It has also been theorized that as each generation of captive bred colubrid comes along they continue to get lighter and lighter....an example of this would be the diminishing black in cb pyros....Maybe there is some correllation here with the albino cal king X lav albino cal king?? The babies SHOULD be simple double hets(normal phenotype).Has anyone ever recrossed them to get the double albino cal king?(1/16). As much as we can cross and recross these milks and make em into cornsnakes, there are countless missed opportunities to really learn how generations of inbred/outbred/inbred snakes compare to the old standards. I realize it is difficult or impossible to measure genetic distance accurately, but real research could be done with the accumulating hard data collected by everyone tracking genetic lines. For this reason I applaud the high cost of morphs,Jeff

It's hard to believe that some of these albinos aren't hypo. I have a related yearling male to this female and he is still clean(no tipping). I'm going to be keeping the lineage clean by breeding these together. I also might breed my extreme to her. Anyways are you going to jump into the hondo game or are you sticking with rat snakes.
Good job creating some insight!
Dave

Dave,I dont understand that post. You first say you will keep her PURE then the next sentence you say you want to breed her to an EXTREME....LOL. The race for the latest morph will not go to the lucky but the professionals. I know at some point the morph craze for milks will die down and hondos risk going the way of the corn for the same reason....just too easy to breed.
I dont know what I will get into when I get back into it. I have a ton of empty cages looking at me. At this point though I have kept almost everything,and there are fewer and fewer NEW things....I like morphs,but also a little morphed out. I like locales,but their interest is spotty and I wont breed anything without knowing I can move the offspring easily for a price that wont bankrupt me. I like the idea of having more individuals of fewer species, but I have always had a soft spot for many of the east coast colubrids. I know this has to do with my roots of being able to go out and find them when others can not.
I think about the only things I havent worked with are Asian rats(coxi,etc). I dont plan on breaking anyones bank on those yellows, I lost that opportunity after that theft a couple years ago. I had hoped that some of the rarer tree snakes would be available cb by now....and I may even try them if I can get a good amount of healthy specimens. I think about venom research as well,but would only consider non-leathal species. I just dont know.......But I am very afraid that the Yankee Trader in me will end up with a bunch of someone's leftovers for a killer price,lol.Take my snake cages please!Jeff

I hear you, hey is that eastern green? It almost looks anery?

Keepen it going,
Dave

It is my opinion that this is a AXANTHIC,partial ANERY. The ANERY is purple and this one green.Yellow purple=Green???I have found one more like this and an Anery at the same locale.They are difficult to keep,they feed on rodents endemnic to islands,lol. ANYTHING different. J